Transition to Apple/macOS

[XMan]

One of the big advantages Macs have over PC is still in the desktop publishing realm. I've been playing around with Sierra in a VirtualBox and the capabilities of stuff like Vellum and Scrivener for Mac just blow everything away.

But zoinks is the hardware expensive. Obviously I can continue to run in a VM, but there are weird little idiosyncrasies there that are kind of annoying (same thing, to some extent, with Hackintosh. I don't want to spend hours troubleshooting every time there's an OS patch.)

So what would be a reasonable desktop replacement that can run Windows 10 in Boot Camp, that isn't going to bankrupt me? I currently run an i7-4790K with 16GB, so I'd prefer not to step back too much in performance, but I know that might be asking a lot . . .

Thoughts?

 

[Commodus]

One of the big advantages Macs have over PC is still in the desktop publishing realm. I've been playing around with Sierra in a VirtualBox and the capabilities of stuff like Vellum and Scrivener for Mac just blow everything away.

But zoinks is the hardware expensive. Obviously I can continue to run in a VM, but there are weird little idiosyncrasies there that are kind of annoying (same thing, to some extent, with Hackintosh. I don't want to spend hours troubleshooting every time there's an OS patch.)

So what would be a reasonable desktop replacement that can run Windows 10 in Boot Camp, that isn't going to bankrupt me? I currently run an i7-4790K with 16GB, so I'd prefer not to step back too much in performance, but I know that might be asking a lot . . .

Thoughts?

I would spring for a 27-inch iMac, but you don't have to go for a brand new one if you feel that $1,799 is too much (you definitely don't need a higher spec than that, if you're shopping the new models). Apple is selling refurbs from the last generation (October 2015) that are still pretty speedy -- I have one! Just get one with a Fusion drive if you can, since you'll notice that SSD performance every day.

 

[XMan]

How upgradeable is that series if I want to pop the back off? Memory, drives?

Edit - N/M I think I found the particular model on iFixit. Zoinks. Couldn't have left a hatch for the HDD, could they?

 

[Oyeve]

The mac is a PC. Just sayin.

 

[XMan]

The mac is a PC. Just sayin.

So is my perspective on Hackintosh off-base then? Cause a Kaby Lake NUC dual-booting Sierra and Win10 would be pretty sweet.

 

[Commodus]

How upgradeable is that series if I want to pop the back off? Memory, drives?

Edit - N/M I think I found the particular model on iFixit. Zoinks. Couldn't have left a hatch for the HDD, could they?

You can upgrade the RAM yourself on 27-inch models, thankfully, but otherwise you're looking at external drives. Thank goodness for Thunderbolt 3/USB-C on the newer systems.

 

[Eug]

No, you can't upgrade anything except the memory in 27" iMacs. Still, don't waste your time with Hackintosh unless you're broke. They negate part of the benefit of Macs.

For your usage I'd recommend a 2017 Kaby Lake Core i5-7500 iMac with SSD and 8 GB RAM, and then add another 16 GB of Crucial RAM, for a total of 24 GB. And if you can find an Apple-refurbished one (which have started to appear on Apple's website), then even better.

BTW, I will emphasize that these iMacs have 5K Retina screens with wide colour gamut. Getting such a screen with a self-built machine would cost a lot. An iMac 5K is actually quite a decent deal in comparison. Also, if you are a college educator or a student, you can get a discount, and a free set of wireless headphones. Here is edu pricing of the iMac 5K 7500.

3.4GHz quad-core 7th-generation Intel Core i5 processor, Turbo Boost up to 3.8GHz
8GB 2400MHz DDR4
256GB SSD
Radeon Pro 570 with 4GB video memory
Magic Mouse 2
Magic Keyboard - US English
Free headphones

US$1789

If you want a 512 GB SSD then it's another $180. And if you want a Magic Keyboard with numeric keypad, it's another $30. You'd also want to add another 16 GB of Crucial RAM as mentioned.

It should be noted that the LG Ultrafine 5K monitor that this iMac is based around retails for US$1300.

BTW, the one I got is the 3.5 GHz Core i5-7600 with Turbo Boost up to 4.1 GHz, Radeon 575, and 1 TB SSD. I had the 4.2 GHz Core i7-7700K but returned it because the fan revs up with any prolonged heavy CPU usage, and it became annoying.

The reason I recommend the 2017 Kaby Lake (Intel 7th gen) is because Apple is building its ecosystem around HEIF and HEVC. In the very least though a 2015 Skylake model (Intel 6th gen) is necessary.

 

[Commodus]

No, you can't upgrade anything except the memory in 27" iMacs. Still, don't waste your time with Hackintosh unless you're broke. They negate part of the benefit of Macs.

For your usage I'd recommend a 2017 Kaby Lake Core i5-7500 iMac with SSD and 8 GB RAM, and then add another 16 GB of Crucial RAM, for a total of 24 GB. And if you can find an Apple-refurbished one (which have started to appear on Apple's website), then even better.

BTW, I will emphasize that these iMacs have 5K Retina screens with wide colour gamut. Getting such a screen with a self-built machine would cost a lot. An iMac 5K is actually quite a decent deal in comparison. Also, if you are a college educator or a student, you can get a discount, and a free set of wireless headphones. Here is edu pricing of the iMac 5K 7500.

3.4GHz quad-core 7th-generation Intel Core i5 processor, Turbo Boost up to 3.8GHz
8GB 2400MHz DDR4
256GB SSD
Radeon Pro 570 with 4GB video memory
Magic Mouse 2
Magic Keyboard - US English
Free headphones

US$1789

If you want a 512 GB SSD then it's another $180. And if you want a Magic Keyboard with numeric keypad, it's another $30. You'd also want to add another 16 GB of Crucial RAM as mentioned.

It should be noted that the LG Ultrafine 5K monitor that this iMac is based around retails for US$1300.

BTW, the one I got is the 3.5 GHz Core i5-7600 with Turbo Boost up to 4.1 GHz, Radeon 575, and 1 TB SSD. I had the 4.2 GHz Core i7-7700K but returned it because the fan revs up with any prolonged heavy CPU usage, and it became annoying.

The reason I recommend the 2017 Kaby Lake (Intel 7th gen) is because Apple is building its ecosystem around HEIF and HEVC. In the very least though a 2015 Skylake model (Intel 6th gen) is necessary.

I'd say the pure SSD option is overkill for someone who wants to use Vellum and Scrivener. Better to have that extra space. Might not even need the extra 16GB of RAM, at least not at first. Basically: unless XMan is producing and writing videos, the base iMac (or a refurb previous-gen) will likely be fine.

 

[Eug]

I'd say the pure SSD option is overkill for someone who wants to use Vellum and Scrivener. Better to have that extra space. Might not even need the extra 16GB of RAM, at least not at first. Basically: unless XMan is producing and writing videos, the base iMac (or a refurb previous-gen) will likely be fine.

8 GB is OK, but not ideal. He'll eventually want more RAM. Hell, I went with 16 GB even with just my MacBook, since I plan on keeping the thing 5+ years. Maybe another 8 GB is sufficient though. I recommend another 16 GB just because the total of 24 GB will likely last the life of the machine and it's relatively cheap. 2x4 GB is just under US$80, and 2x8 GB is just over $140. So, the cost difference between a 16 GB Mac (using 8 GB third party RAM) and a 24 GB Mac (using 16 GB third party RAM) is only about $60-$65.

SSD is not overkill for anyone IMO, although I suppose one could get a Fusion drive and maybe even separate the SSD from the HD. I'm not a fan of Fusion in 2017 because you can't control what goes where (unless you separate the drives with some Terminal commands), and they are more susceptible to catastrophic failure. However, either way, the only viable Fusion drive for that model is the 2 TB model, because it includes a 128 GB SSD. The cheaper 1 TB model is a non-starter, because it only has a 32 GB SSD. It should be noted that the 2 TB Fusion drive costs more than the 256 GB pure SSD. If he really needs the extra space, then he can get a 2 TB USB 3 HD for the same $90 he'd save by going with the 256 GB SSD I recommended (vs. the internal 2 TB Fusion drive).

 

[XMan]

They don't seem to be selling any of the 2017 refurbs with SSDs, yet - may just have to keep an eye out.

This doesn't look too horrible:

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/...uad-core-Intel-Core-i5-with-Retina-5K-display

I'm not a college student any longer, so no discount there. If and when I do make the jump, I'll have the business writeoff, at least.

 

[Eug]

They don't seem to be selling any of the 2017 refurbs with SSDs, yet - may just have to keep an eye out.

This doesn't look too horrible:

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/...uad-core-Intel-Core-i5-with-Retina-5K-display

I'm not a college student any longer, so no discount there. If and when I do make the jump, I'll have the business writeoff, at least.

As mentioned, don't get anything with the 1 TB Fusion drive. Minimum 2 TB or else pure SSD, because the 1 TB Fusion drive has only a 32 GB SSD.

 

[XMan]

Yeah I have a 24TB server, so no real need for mass storage -- will just go with probably the 512GB SSD if I can get one. Can't believe Apple's premium for RAM, though, that's nuts. I'll be doing crucial there.

 

[manly]

I went the other direction this spring. After about 12 years of Mac OS X, I jumped back to a "PC" running Linux. The hardware is pretty good (Dell XPS 15) and upgradeable, but Linux is a still a bit hit or miss at times.

I tend to agree with Eug's advice, and it's part of the reason I couldn't rationalize a new MacBook Pro. Since Macs are essentially appliances nowadays, you have to overpay for upgrades up-front to future proof yourself down the road. Honestly if you're willing to pay the "Apple tax" anyway, what's a little extra to optimize the experience and longevity? The only current exception to this is a low-end MacBook for a non-STEM college student. It's inane that with the margins Apple can charge, they still dick around with Fusion drives.

Isn't Kaby Lake R going to 6 cores for desktop i7? I'm glad I didn't fall for the late 2016 TouchBar Pros. Although no doubt fine hardware, it's going to be 2 models behind by next spring? Who would have guessed that a year ago! My point is that although Kaby Lake R isn't a true "8th gen" Core CPU, it's probably worth waiting for if you're spending $2k anyway, and not planning on doing that again anytime soon.

 

[Eug]

If I could have waited, I would have gotten the 8th Gen Core i5 6-core iMac. But I couldn’t wait, so I didn’t.

The HEVC media upgrade was more important to me though so that’s OK. The 6-core would have been a nice bonus though.

 

[XMan]

The nice thing is I'm not in a huge rush. I have Sierra running in a VM, so I can test the software and make sure that's what I want to do.

 

[Commodus]

If I could have waited, I would have gotten the 8th Gen Core i5 6-core iMac. But I couldn’t wait, so I didn’t.

The HEVC media upgrade was more important to me though so that’s OK. The 6-core would have been a nice bonus though.

Well, the real question is: will Apple even do Coffee Lake iMacs? The current iMacs were updated in June, so it'd be odd to roll in new chips just a few months later... and by the time there's a decent interval, it'd probably be looking at 10nm processors.

 

[Eug]

Well, the real question is: will Apple even do Coffee Lake iMacs? The current iMacs were updated in June, so it'd be odd to roll in new chips just a few months later... and by the time there's a decent interval, it'd probably be looking at 10nm processors.

2018. Coffee Lake or later.

 

[XMan]

Well, I went ahead and jumped into the dark side. I got a copy of Snow Leopard for 20 bucks, and a lot of skull sweat and Google searching later I now have Sierra running on an i7-3770K system I had spare.

Figured that would give me a chance to get accustomed to the system and play around with the software before dropping $1,000+ on new hardware.

 

[purbeast0]

I ran 2 hackintosh laptops for quite a while. My primary reason for it was to develop iOS apps. But with developing iOS apps, you need to keep up to date with the latest OSX versions, because there will be a time where you are required to have your app built with X SDK for iOS apps, but that means you need version Y Xcode to build it, but that means you need Z version of OSX to run it.

The upgrading of OSX versions for Hackintosh's became a headache after a while. I had one of the HP laptops that had basically "plug and play" ways to update, but in the end it just became a headache with things not working right or properly. Plus the battery on the laptop I had was crap. My first one was a Dell, then the HP lasted me a while but ended up basically having to be plugged in to work.

Eventually when I took iOS dev more serious i just sprung for a MacBook Pro. I got a 2014 model in 2015 and I believe it was a refrub on sale from Adorama. I ended up paying $1800 for a laptop that was like $2300 brand new, and a year old.

To this day, it holds up just fine. I have a lot of dev stuff going on at once on my laptop and I never ever have any hiccups. Plus the touchpad on the MacBook is incredible. I was trying to use my budies Windows 10 laptop 2 weeks ago and I felt so handicapped using it lol. I'm just so used to the touchpad and multiple desktops that I am now pretty much just as efficient (if not more) on my laptop than I am on a desktop with 2 monitors. I use 3 desktops on my laptop + 2 full screen apps so it's more like 5 desktops. I could never go back to a hackintosh now.

 

[XMan]

Yeah, the first Sierra update broke my network card, but I got that figured out. I don't expect it to be 100% stable, and I won't be using it to produce material (I do the vast majority of my writing on my laptop) but I think it should be fine to do print and ebook layouts and as a general use system.

My only weirdness is that I lose my sound card after it wakes from sleep. That's an easy fix, I can just reboot before I listen to music.

 

[Eug]

I could never go back to a hackintosh now.

Yeah, the thing about a hackintosh is that it doesn't give the full macOS experience. It's really a tinkerer's experiment more than anything, that can give a feel for the OS, but not the feel for the overall hardware / software integration.

The closest thing to hackintosh these days I can tolerate is running my unsupported Mac with the latest OS version. But that just involves running a patched installer and patching the OS afterwards with a pre-built patcher. No real work on my part. All the hardware is native and is otherwise supported. It just so happens that there is a near identical machine that Apple offically supports, but they decided not to support mine, despite the fact the internals are the same. But that's one of the downsides of the Apple experience. One day they just turn off the support switch and that's that.

 

[Kaido]

Yeah, the first Sierra update broke my network card, but I got that figured out. I don't expect it to be 100% stable, and I won't be using it to produce material (I do the vast majority of my writing on my laptop) but I think it should be fine to do print and ebook layouts and as a general use system.

My only weirdness is that I lose my sound card after it wakes from sleep. That's an easy fix, I can just reboot before I listen to music.

I call Hackintoshes science projects. Granted, the technology has advanced over the years to the point where it is very easy to build one these days. A few tips:

1. I use a NIC card & USB sound card. The motherboard drivers usually get funky when upgrading, so by using a natively-supported PCI/PCIe Gigabit NIC & USB audio adapter, you can bypass that headache.

2. I use separate drives for Windows & OSX. You can dual-boot off a single drive if you want to, but it just makes things more complicated. Storage is cheap these days; I recommend dual drives for convenience.

3. One additional layer of convenience is putting all of the Hackintosh on a USB boot stick, rather than onto the boot drive itself. I like to keep my OSX boot drive 100% stock Mac. This typically means very easy upgrades, and also lets you swap the drive into a real Mac if needed (& vice-versa), unlike Windows where if you swap from hardware to hardware it will typically bluescreen on you.

4. My personal Hackintosh is 100% stable. I've been running the system system I think since 2011...Core i5, 10 gigs of RAM, etc. Would love to upgrade, but it never crashes & is still super zippy, so no need to lol.

At some point, I would like to upgrade to a 5K iMac, but again, no need to right now because my rig is fast & stable, especially since a 27" iMac is a pretty hefty investment & wouldn't really give me any ROI right now.

 

[Kaido]

I ran 2 hackintosh laptops for quite a while. My primary reason for it was to develop iOS apps. But with developing iOS apps, you need to keep up to date with the latest OSX versions, because there will be a time where you are required to have your app built with X SDK for iOS apps, but that means you need version Y Xcode to build it, but that means you need Z version of OSX to run it.

The upgrading of OSX versions for Hackintosh's became a headache after a while. I had one of the HP laptops that had basically "plug and play" ways to update, but in the end it just became a headache with things not working right or properly. Plus the battery on the laptop I had was crap. My first one was a Dell, then the HP lasted me a while but ended up basically having to be plugged in to work.

Eventually when I took iOS dev more serious i just sprung for a MacBook Pro. I got a 2014 model in 2015 and I believe it was a refrub on sale from Adorama. I ended up paying $1800 for a laptop that was like $2300 brand new, and a year old.

To this day, it holds up just fine. I have a lot of dev stuff going on at once on my laptop and I never ever have any hiccups. Plus the touchpad on the MacBook is incredible. I was trying to use my budies Windows 10 laptop 2 weeks ago and I felt so handicapped using it lol. I'm just so used to the touchpad and multiple desktops that I am now pretty much just as efficient (if not more) on my laptop than I am on a desktop with 2 monitors. I use 3 desktops on my laptop + 2 full screen apps so it's more like 5 desktops. I could never go back to a hackintosh now.

Yeah, Hackintosh laptops have always been a pretty bad experience (with a select few being pretty decent), mainly just due to lack of driver support. It's tough too because actual Mac laptops have such great build quality with the metal frames.

 

[Kaido]

As mentioned, don't get anything with the 1 TB Fusion drive. Minimum 2 TB or else pure SSD, because the 1 TB Fusion drive has only a 32 GB SSD.

Alternatively, you can boot Macs from external devices. My buddy's Fusion drive in his iMac just died & rather than doing surgery on it to replace the internal setup, we just got a fat USB 3.0 drive to boot from. I believe the bootable Thunderbolt external SSD drives are also gaining in capacity as well, so it might be worth looking at the cost for one of those vs. what Apple charges. Although then you have stuff sticking out of your iMac, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a nice slim machine haha.

 

[XMan]

Alternatively, you can boot Macs from external devices. My buddy's Fusion drive in his iMac just died & rather than doing surgery on it to replace the internal setup, we just got a fat USB 3.0 drive to boot from. I believe the bootable Thunderbolt external SSD drives are also gaining in capacity as well, so it might be worth looking at the cost for one of those vs. what Apple charges. Although then you have stuff sticking out of your iMac, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a nice slim machine haha.

That's what velcro's for. Plenty of open space on the back of that big screen.