Transgender runners finish 1st and 2nd in Connecticut high school championships

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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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Legal legit gov document with a proper M or F label on it.
Right?
Say in what legal terms would there be difference between the F and the M document?
None?
Then is it not really YOUR feel good document? Cause you cant feel good if you cant drop people in either F or M buckets?
Mirrors. Damn them.

This person comes up to you on the street, the "sex" field on their birth certificate is blank and @s0me0nesmind1 is forced to fill that field for his "competent people" version of the form. Which way do do you think he goes, M or F? Because after all the BC sex of this particular person is obviously one of the very best tools to identify them in a large group of people.

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Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,960
782
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And considering some places now offer X as an option on birth certificates along with M or F, how exactly would that work? Or the fact that in many places the BC can have that field changed upon request without reassignment surgery and with minimal levels of support by medical professionals?

Requiring the birth certificate fixes the issue if we include both gender and sex on the birth certificate. Gender can be used for identity, sex for science. Por que no los dos?
 
Mar 11, 2004
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Just weighing in. I have a problem with trans (boys identifying as girls) competing against girls for the same reason I had a problem with Ben Johnson winning the 100 yard dash vs Carl Lewis in 1988

Testosterone.

Trans people should either submit to blood tests and only allow agreed upon levels or compete as trans vs other trans people.

Er, you know Lewis was using too, right?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...irtiest-race-in-history-idUSBRE98M0PT20130923

That's why these arguments are stupid. Many many many athletes are already using substances to boost their performance. There is no "equal playing field". There hasn't been for decades. You're fucking idiots if you believe otherwise. This is true even at the high school level and I bet some even younger than that. I don't think many of you understand how insane the world of even amateur sports is. Does that mean everyone is using? Of course not, but its far more prevalent than you realize and why any argument of equal playing field is fundamentally broken.

Also, haha, uh, if you can't see why even the language you're using is troubling "Trans people should submit..."
 
Nov 8, 2012
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This person comes up to you on the street, the "sex" field on their birth certificate is blank

That's just it though, there is no purpose to the "sex" field. It serves zero purpose legally, it serves zero purpose factually, and it serves zero purpose in life other than "feel good" feelings.

A birth certificate is a legal document that states FACTS. Not feelings. Putting a "sex" column is absolutely stupid and childish. If you want a happy go lucky feel good document then go build your own like a 2 year old.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,633
8,521
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Life isn't fair. But high school competition should try to be. Many of us have some sort of born/congenital condition that we have to live or deal with. I was born with only one kidney and didn't find out until a fluke thing halfway through high school. I was told that I should no longer play football because of it. So I stopped playing. I didn't ask for a special no tackle clause. Kids with congenital heart conditions can't participate in competitive sports. They don't ask for special permission and conditions to play.

Transgender issues are no different to me. It's not a judgement thing. Born one way, compete one way. Born the other, compete the other. Don't like it, tough luck. We all have problems. At least you live in a country that can provide you health and medical means to manage it.

I'm fairly liberal in my views but this is just one topic that grinds my gears. Males have significant physical biological advantages over females that aren't necessarily reversible with the gender therapy. Sports are an optional thing. Don't like the rules, don't sign up. Let everyone else try and have a fair and fun competition.

I think this is a valid argument. Being born trans could be legitimately be seen in the same category as being born with a disability (certainly if one embraces 'the social model' of disability). Anyone who has to live with a condition like yours just has to accept they are going to be at a huge disadvantage in competitive sports (I've known a couple of people who were born with extra kidneys, oddly enough - which wasn't a benefit, as it turned out, seemed to mean a lifetime of repeated kidney problems).

But with the crucial priviso that it _is_ about 'fun' and not taken too seriously, and people stop according excessive rewards of money and status to those able to compete. It's because it's not, in reality, usually about 'fun', but rather about money and the pursuit of status, that these problems arise. And school-level sport is strongly affected by the (mostly pretty corrupt) money-making industry that is professional sport. It's highly questionable whether the former would exist in the same form if not for the latter.

But arguing against organised competitive sport is like arguing against organised religion. Almost certainly futile. But I remain a Richard Dawkins when it comes to sport. The way it's presented at the moment actively _discourages_ a huge proportion of children (and maybe even the adult population, certainly insofar as they continue habits acquired in childhood) from being physically active (which is, in my opinion, the thing that really matters).

Edit - I mean, I can already here someone arguing that it's also not a level-playing-field for academic subjects, that some might just be disadvantaged in competing over being good at maths or language skills, say.

But the crucial difference is there the subject doesn't exist purely for the purpose of creating completion, those disciplines have an independent existence because they serve a purpose outside themselves. Those skills achieve useful results. The compeition is a side-effect and arguably unavoidable consequence. And that makes a big difference, because it means people can view the competitive aspects in a rational way, including making rational decisions about how to govern that competition, because it can always be balanced against the value of the external results of the activity.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,633
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What is the purpose of sex when not attempting to have children? All of the negatives you just gave are far worse when it comes to sex. Do you feel the same about sex for fun?

Do we have organised sex in schools? Surely there's enough of a problem with the 'natural' impulse towards it among the young as it is. I was going to ask 'do we have organised wanking clubs' as there's a bit of a natural impulse towards that as well, but according to another strange thread on here we apparently already do (though not in schools, thank the Lord).
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
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Do we have organised sex in schools? Surely there's enough of a problem with the 'natural' impulse towards it among the young as it is. I was going to ask 'do we have organised wanking clubs' as there's a bit of a natural impulse towards that as well, but according to another strange thread on here we apparently already do (though not in schools, thank the Lord).

Not in school, but, sex as recreation is far more popular than sports.

The is porn industry generated about $15 billion in profit in 2017. That's more than the MLB, NBA, NFL combined. That is just one part of the sex industry.

But, you did not answer my question from what I can tell.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,633
8,521
136
Not in school, but, sex as recreation is far more popular than sports.

The is porn industry generated about $15 billion in profit in 2017. That's more than the MLB, NBA, NFL combined. That is just one part of the sex industry.

But, you did not answer my question from what I can tell.

What question?

And should schools encourage pupils to go into the porn industry? It's probably a fair comparison, both commercial sport and commercial sex are morally questionable.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,757
2,533
126
I for one, am also wondering why the OP (correctly labeled by others above as a "concern troll" is so bent out of shape about this. Do you have an relatives or friends (or even know anyone) that participates at the female level of Connecticut high school track? Do you even live in CT?

This is one of those lifestyle outrage messages that the right, fueled by Faux News (and in this case, sourced by a British tabloid).

I live in CT and to the best of my knowledge this "story" hasn't even made the local news. It is certainly not the high controversy OP pretends it to be.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
This person comes up to you on the street, the "sex" field on their birth certificate is blank and @s0me0nesmind1 is forced to fill that field for his "competent people" version of the form. Which way do do you think he goes, M or F? Because after all the BC sex of this particular person is obviously one of the very best tools to identify them in a large group of people.

maxresdefault.jpg
Thunder Thunder Thunder Thundercats hooooooooooo
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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That's just it though, there is no purpose to the "sex" field. It serves zero purpose legally, it serves zero purpose factually, and it serves zero purpose in life other than "feel good" feelings.

A birth certificate is a legal document that states FACTS. Not feelings. Putting a "sex" column is absolutely stupid and childish. If you want a happy go lucky feel good document then go build your own like a 2 year old.

Well I'm glad you seem to agree with me that listing sex (or gender) on a BC doesn't seem to have any particular value as a means of identifying a person in many cases thus we should consider its removal from the BC issued to people (although collecting aggregate numbers might have some value) although your point about a "competent people" version versus a "feels good" version muddies whether you support that or not. Still doesn't address the point that using designated "sex" on BC forms as they exist now (which I presume you would say is the "feels good" version because it lists sex) to determine whether a person should be able to compete in a "girls sport" event actually helps the "problem" of trans competing in said "girl sports."
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
What question?

Your post here makes the argument that because sports are meaningless that we should not value them. You make the argument that it leads to a broken value system, causes things to be built that are not needed and only for pleasure, negative health issues, financial corruption, people not exercising because they are passive customers of the corrupt industry, and creates pointless competition. Sex does all of those things but to a much greater factor. Far more time, energy, resources are devoted to it.

And should schools encourage pupils to go into the porn industry? It's probably a fair comparison, both commercial sport and commercial sex are morally questionable.

You keep relating it to schools, but, you expanded the topic in the post I responded to when you said this...

"The problem isn't the mere existence of sport in schools, I concede that, it's the excessive and absurd seriousness with which it is treated - cf this 'controversy'. "