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Transgender man suing CrossFit for not letting him compete against women

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Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,421
127
106
I support Crossfit's decision here. Nearly all species on this planet exhibit some form of sexual dimorphism, and in humans (as with most other mammal species) those differences include higher bone density, lower fat percentage, and greater muscle mass on the male side. If Chloie's sex was switched at a very early age, then I'd say let her compete, as the difference shouldn't be significant. But an entire lifetime up until adulthood of male testosterone levels, that is, the hormone that primarily separates male and female differences, will significantly impact the body's structure. It's almost like Chloie is female but has many of the physical benefits of being a male too.

At 5'4" 151lbs, Chloie is a good 20lbs heavier than a fit female, is she not?
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
2
0
Your silly views on the issues in this discussion made me wish for a species-ending plague to hit the "reset" button.
I would suggest buying up old Middle Eastern oil lamps and rubbing each one briskly.

And have your name legally changed to Aladdin, just in case...
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,101
586
126
Born a man, had surgery to make him into a woman, wants to compete in the womens category.

CrossFit said no.

From the letter CrossFit sent him, even though he had surgery, he is still genetically a man. And as a man he has an advantage over women.

http://www.tmz.com/2014/03/06/crossfit-lawsuit-games-transgender-athlete-chloie-jonsson/



I fully agree with CrossFit. Surgery does not magically change a persons genetic code.

Born a man, always a man.

Born a woman, always a woman.

And that is just the way it is.
I don't know what this world is coming to when I find myself agreeing with Texashiker. Maybe there is hope for our country. :sneaky:
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,821
2,923
126
This is the kind of insanity you create when you start down the path of suspending reality in favor of some politically correct notion of gender being whatever you want it to be. I don't care if you mutilate yourself and change your name, it doesn't change what you are.
Insanity? Meh, this is about as unimportant as things get. Probably shouldn't be allowed to compete, but I'm no Biologist or Doctor so I don't know this persons Male/Female genetic state.

Regardless, this is a minor annoyance.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,531
18,091
136
I don't know what this world is coming to when I find myself agreeing with Texashiker. Maybe there is hope for our country. :sneaky:
well, the fact is that some are born neither, technically, or both. However you want to look at it.

Biology!
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
40,475
3,546
136
well, the fact is that some are born neither, technically, or both. However you want to look at it.

Biology!
Well I'm not the world's most physical guy
But when she squeezed me tight she nearly broke my spine
Oh my Lola lo-lo-lo-lo Lola
Well I'm not dumb but I can't understand
Why she walked like a woman and talked like a man
Oh my Lola lo-lo-lo-lo Lola lo-lo-lo-lo Lola

'sup, Zin?
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,199
4
76
I support Crossfit's decision here. Nearly all species on this planet exhibit some form of sexual dimorphism, and in humans (as with most other mammal species) those differences include higher bone density, lower fat percentage, and greater muscle mass on the male side. If Chloie's sex was switched at a very early age, then I'd say let her compete, as the difference shouldn't be significant. But an entire lifetime up until adulthood of male testosterone levels, that is, the hormone that primarily separates male and female differences, will significantly impact the body's structure. It's almost like Chloie is female but has many of the physical benefits of being a male too.

At 5'4" 151lbs, Chloie is a good 20lbs heavier than a fit female, is she not?
I'm curious what having the testicles removed does to the bone density. The adrenal gland can only compensate so much.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,812
192
106
While my wife and I were in town today buying some fruit trees and potting soil, my thoughts turned to this thread.

These men who claim to be women, I wonder how many of them are going to adopt children?

Part of being a male or female is whether you want to have, as in physically get pregnant, deliver, and breastfeed children. Yes there are women out there who do not want children, just like there are men who do not want children.

I wonder how many men who think they are a woman go on to adopt children?

Men who identify with being a woman, do they have the mothering instinct like what a woman does? Or, do those men just want to have sex with men?

The mothering instinct goes deep, in some cases deep enough to drive women crazy. We have all heard of women who killed a pregnant woman, cut out her unborn child and took it as her own.

I do not ever remember hearing a man go to such drastic measures to get a child.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,947
2,322
126
While I agree with CF I do believe they should have worded the letter a tad bit better. The "high school biology" comment wasn't professional at all.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,947
2,322
126
Men who identify with being a woman, do they have the mothering instinct like what a woman does? Or, do those men just want to have sex with men?
Men who just want to have sex with men don't go to such drastic measures as getting their dick surgically removed and an insane amount of hormone therapy.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Men who just want to have sex with men don't go to such drastic measures as getting their dick surgically removed and an insane amount of hormone therapy.
There's more to being a woman than getting surgery and taking hormones.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,199
4
76
While my wife and I were in town today buying some fruit trees and potting soil, my thoughts turned to this thread.

These men who claim to be women, I wonder how many of them are going to adopt children?

Part of being a male or female is whether you want to have, as in physically get pregnant, deliver, and breastfeed children. Yes there are women out there who do not want children, just like there are men who do not want children.

I wonder how many men who think they are a woman go on to adopt children?

Men who identify with being a woman, do they have the mothering instinct like what a woman does? Or, do those men just want to have sex with men?

The mothering instinct goes deep, in some cases deep enough to drive women crazy. We have all heard of women who killed a pregnant woman, cut out her unborn child and took it as her own.

I do not ever remember hearing a man go to such drastic measures to get a child.
Is your question whether or not a father can be a parent?
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
2
0
They do if transgender is a form of mental illness.
That's a mighty big if. AFAIK the APA doesn't define transgenderism as a form of mental illness.

There are women who weight train both for fitness and competition who could match or best Chloie Thompson. For that reason alone I think she should be allowed to compete in the women's category.

Men who identify with being a woman, do they have the mothering instinct like what a woman does? Or, do those men just want to have sex with men?

The mothering instinct goes deep, in some cases deep enough to drive women crazy. We have all heard of women who killed a pregnant woman, cut out her unborn child and took it as her own.

I do not ever remember hearing a man go to such drastic measures to get a child.
More accurately the nurturing instinct, while stronger in women is not limited to them alone.

As pointed out by Darwin333, most men who sexually desire other men don't have themselves physically or hormonally altered.
 
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Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,812
192
106
Is your question whether or not a father can be a parent?
No, not at all.

There is more to gender than having your plumbing changed.

Having a penis and having vagina is a small part of the gender equation. Men and women both have certain instincts. Our brains are hardwired to think differently from the other sex.

As for the body modifications, that can be explained as a mental illness.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Health/story?id=1806125

Six years ago, Karl (who asked that his real name not be used) sat alone in a parked car with 100 pounds of dry ice and an obsession to destroy his legs.

"The first thing I did was I used a wooden flour scoop to scoop some granulated dry ice into the bucket. ... It filled the wastebasket with carbon dioxide gas, which was 79 degrees below zero," he said.
After he froze his legs with dry ice and had them amputated, he started thinking about having one of his hands amputated. Then survival mode kicked in, how is he supposed to take care of himself with only one hand.

He was able to get the mental help he needed and his hand was saved.

In a documentary that goes along with that article, he said he wish he would have gotten the help he needed to save his legs.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,777
3
0
Men and women both have certain instincts. Our brains are hardwired to think differently from the other sex.
Correct. And the balance of hormones in someone's system is incredibly influential on everything about their behavior, demeanor, temperament, and even thought processes.

Men and women have very different hormonal balances on average.

Something I found very fascinating in the 2002 episode of NPR's "This American Life" on testosterone, was how a woman who was undergoing all of these sorts of steps to "become a man" talked about some of the dramatic differences in how she viewed women and how her mind worked when she got on heavy testosterone treatments. The absolute most fascinating thing of all was how she said:

Alex Blumberg: Are there other ways, other than the visual, and other than the libidinal, are there other ways that you feel like testosterone has altered the way you feel or perceive?

Griffin Hansbury: Something that happened after I started taking testosterone, I became interested in science. I was never interested in science before.

Alex Blumberg: No way. Come on. Are you serious?

Griffin Hansbury: I'm serious. I'm serious.

Alex Blumberg: You're just setting us back a hundred years, sir.

Griffin Hansbury: I know I am. I know. Again, and I have to have this caveat in here, I cannot say it was the testosterone. All I can say is that this interest happened after T. There's BT and AT, and this was definitely After T. And I became interested in science. I found myself understanding physics in a way I never had before.

[LAUGHTER]
Transcript | Link to this specific portion of the show

Of course, what she said there is very consistent with what most of us know: men and boys are always more interested, on average, in how things work, taking them apart, gadgetry, cars, etc. All of this is of the same vein as "science." Perhaps if egalitarians allowed themselves to realize that different types of people really are *gasp* ... DIFFERENT they could stop pulling their hair out over the fact that not every possible walk of life or corner of our civilization is exactly 50/50 male and female or exactly a perfect mirror image of the racial makeup of our society. From a 2007 LiveScience.com article:

"Social scientists have studied it, lawyers have tried to fix it and post-feminist society is over it. But women are still outnumbered by men in math, science and engineering fields.

...

relatively few women continue on to high-level faculty positions. In 1972, women made up just 3 percent of full professors in science and engineering fields, a figure that inched up to 10 percent by 1998, according to the NSF."
They agonize endlessly in an attempt to explain and eliminate differences, which our forefathers completely understood without having nearly so much information or the means to gain it as we do. This isn't to say that there isn't ANY merit to the idea of the exclusionary "boy's club" atmosphere which might discourage women, or people of minority groups, to pursue certain careers, but I think it's safe to say that the largest factor, by a very wide margin, which accounts for gender disparities and such, is biological.

I want to live in the type of society where a woman or a black man who is legitimately qualified and capable to be a physicist or a lawyer or a politician, is able to do so. But I also want that society to be realistic about the expected percentages those people will amount to in certain fields, and doesn't lose its mind when they are low.

You'll notice feminists spend very little (as in zero) time griping about how men dominate workplace deaths (93%) or fields like sewage workers, coal miners, and Alaskan crab fishermen, btw. It's very telling that it's always the high dollar, high prestige fields which get targeted in this way.

As for the body modifications, that can be explained as a mental illness.
I don't know if I'd call it a mental illness or say it's exactly equivalent to wanting your own legs cut off. I actually have a great deal of sympathy for people who feel that they are "born in the wrong body" gender-wise. I VERY strongly suspect this is no fault of their own, and comes down to an incorrect balance of hormones they marinated in while still in the womb. There may be some additional environmental triggers which finish off the effect in early childhood, that I don't know.

But either way, I don't think people choose to be that way, and I sympathize with that feeling.

Personally, I think there's more dignity in working with what you are, and making the best of it. Like how people tend to think the guy with the bad toupee looks like a clown, whereas the guy who embraces his baldness, shaves it, and makes it work gets far more respect.

But hey, if they want to mutilate themselves in a vain attempt to be something they can never be (at least with current technology) that's their decision. I just don't want them to be fooling people who are considering a relationship with them about their actual gender, or trying to unfairly compete in athletic competitions, etc.
 
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Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,812
192
106
I actually have a great deal of sympathy for people who feel that they are "born in the wrong body" gender-wise. I VERY strongly suspect this is no fault of their own, and comes down to an incorrect balance of hormones they marinated in while still in the womb.
From the article I linked to,
"I wasn't born in the correct body," said Lilly, who has twice tried to amputate her legs. "The mind doesn't connect up to the body at all."
The common trend between the amputees and the transsexuals is "I was born in the wrong body".

The amputees have a mental illness that needs to be treated.

But we excuse transsexuals? They do not have a mental illness, they were "really" born in the wrong body?

There are two groups of people saying the same exact statements, both group mutilating their bodies, one is mentally ill while the other group is not?
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,777
3
0
The common trend between the amputees and the transsexuals is "I was born in the wrong body".

The amputees have a mental illness that needs to be treated.

But we excuse transsexuals? They do not have a mental illness, they were "really" born in the wrong body?

There are two groups of people saying the same exact statements, both group mutilating their bodies, one is mentally ill while the other group is not?
The thing is, I've seen studies which showed that homosexual/transgender people really do have brains that fit the pattern of the other gender better than their own.

And soaking up too much of the other gender's primary hormone in the womb or your chemical balances, brain structure, etc just not coming out according to the standard blueprint, could easily account for someone turning out homosexual or feeling that they were the wrong gender. It also isn't anything they'd have control over.

I could easily see how such a person could be mentally healthy otherwise, but feel that they'd been born as the wrong sex. Especially when they found themselves not only attracted to the same sex they themselves are, but feeling the urge to act more like, dress more like, speak more like, and look more like the sex they are NOT.

This is obviously far more common than wanting limbs chopped off. I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone who wanted to lose limbs, someone we both agree is mentally ill, just chose to use the same sort of language they've seen transgender people gain some success and understanding by using. Bit of a bandwagon type thing.

You certainly could call homosexuals and transgenders "mentally ill" if you wished to, and perhaps by a very technical definition that may be true, but I don't view them that way and I would not choose to refer to them that way.

I do think that a lot of people with gender/sexuality/identity problems are ALSO mentally ill but a great deal of this may be because of growing up in a society where they learned that this made them a freak, and they needed to hide it, etc. That almost has to give you issues. Unfortunately, as I've said before, I think this may be somewhat inevitable because society has an interest and a stake in maintaining a clear standard of normality.
 

mchammer187

Diamond Member
Nov 26, 2000
9,116
0
76
Who cares, let the bundle of sticks race the women! Do you think he/she is gonna win?







Another manufactured controversy. I don't know about you guys but if you're willing to cut your own balls off to convince me you're a woman that's convincing enough for me.
It sets a horrible precedent.

What if a man wanted to do it and compete in women's tennis where there is a lot more at stake?

http://observer.theguardian.com/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
2
0
From the article I linked to,


The common trend between the amputees and the transsexuals is "I was born in the wrong body".

The amputees have a mental illness that needs to be treated.

But we excuse transsexuals? They do not have a mental illness, they were "really" born in the wrong body?

There are two groups of people saying the same exact statements, both group mutilating their bodies, one is mentally ill while the other group is not?
So a few anecdotes equals a common trend? Fascinating

Diagnoses of mental illness is done on an individual basis, not on a group. As well, very few if any (and certainly not yourself) on this board are qualified to make that diagnosis.
 

who?

Platinum Member
Sep 1, 2012
2,327
42
91
Some people are born with XXY chromosomes, how do you classify them?
 

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