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Transgender man suing CrossFit for not letting him compete against women

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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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But anyone who feels that using gender as a proxy for testosterone level is reasonable (and it is) should agree that using race as a proxy for testosterone level might be reasonable too. No?
1: Why must you segue into that?

2: Aren't current t-levels less relevant than when a person was growing up / bulking out their frame? Once you look like the hulk I think it's easier to maintain it?
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,777
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1: Why must you segue into that?
Because it's a topic of interest to me and the unease our society feels about discussing it, coupled with the importance of it, are absolutely and perpetually fascinating to me. Any issue on which an entire society (planet?) of adults are perpetually lying to themselves and others about, and studiously avoiding dealing in facts about, is like an irresistible mental magnet to me. This is why I was fascinated by religion many years ago, before I lost interest in it. It was another topic people were wildly dishonest about, and spent a lot of time and effort lying to themselves and everyone else about. Of course, now being an atheist is much more accepted and en vogue than it was then. When being realistic about race reaches that level I imagine I'll lose interest.

2: Aren't current t-levels less relevant than when a person was growing up / bulking out their frame? Once you look like the hulk I think it's easier to maintain it?
Blacks reach puberty sooner and develop motor skills in infancy earlier, and are essentially adults sooner. This is undoubtedly related to the eternal complaint of young black men being treated like men, which you'll often hear about. A lot of black activists bemoan the fact that young black boys are not really permitted the same sort of benefit of the doubt, or at least not for as many years, as white boys are. There's a biological reason for it, as there is for everything in human experience.

So, I would suspect that it isn't just a current t-level thing, it's a case of blacks being awash in higher testosterone level for their entire pubescent and post-pubescent life, as compared to other racial groups. A huge, unfair advantage. Objectively. Undeniably.

The only basis for denial of it is wish thinking, and cowardice. Not accusing you of this, btw. Speaking generally.

The proof is in the pudding, after all, look at the racial composition of sprinting, long distance running, basketball, and football. Boxing may be another example, I'm less familiar with that.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
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...but who knows about the differences until years later? That's kind of my point -- to avoid the psychological self-abuse and outside pressure reported by those who have gender-identity issues, why not keep em' nameless and genderless until they decide?

This obviously comes from a comment made by Janet Mock(?), who said "I wasn't born a boy, I was born a baby". O.....kaayy.



Sure, learning about ourselves is a great things, put most of this is clearly societal.



Thanks, I like it too. Will keep it this way.
I think psychological abuse is environmental, not hereditary. A human, whether child or adult can be taught self respect, self acceptance, etc. which gives them defense against the negative aspects of societal psychological abuse.

Good for her and a great attitude!

Societal attitudes can and do change an individuals; we learn and grow as a people when we examine our attitudes and their positive/negative effects on the individual person.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,812
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I know I harp on these issues a lot but I find them fascinating and I'm drawn to things people hold as taboos.
Political-correctness says people should not talk about difference between the races.


As to the opening post, one simply does not take a stud-horse or a rooster and turn it into a mare or a hen.

How does a hen know to go broody? It does not know, it just does it.

Women and men have certain instincts that the other sex does not have.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,505
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Because it's a topic of interest to me and the unease our society feels about discussing it...
Other topics for that. You're detracting from the discussion of genders in sports, how we segregate genders due to physical differences, transgenders trying to cross those lines, and the practicality of testing for testosterone brackets akin to weight brackets.

On the subject of testosterone testing: I question if such testing is accurate once a person has already bulked up.
 

The_AC

Member
May 29, 2012
28
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I think it's cuter that some people use the phrase "politically incorrect" as a positive description of their words and/or thoughts; when it's really just an attempt to excuse their verbal bullying.
Okay....

Am I the only one who thinks it's cute how it's [verbal bullying] to say that men and women have mental differences, and it's [perfectly fine] to say that a transgender person has the mentality of the opposite gender?

EDIT: crap, one too many posts
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
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Am I the only one who thinks it's cute how it's [verbal bullying] to say that men and women have mental differences, and it's [perfectly fine] to say that a transgender person has the mentality of the opposite gender?
Such differences are scientifically established fact, and are more firmly evidenced with every passing year.

There have been some recent studies on it.

The liberal notion that everyone is exactly the same person just inside of a different physical shell, is complete bullshit, always has been, and will not survive in any but the most ignorant, fact-denying mind for much longer. They have done a fantastic job suppressing inquiry into these things, but the science is coming out anyway.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,777
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Have you ever heard of a rooster sitting on eggs or a hen trying to crow?
Don't you know sex is a social construct, bro?

Why, if it weren't for being raised in this oppressive patriarchy, anyone who we currently identify as a "woman" could instantaneously sprout a penis at any time, simply through willing "her"self to do so.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,812
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Don't you know sex is a social construct, bro?
What makes boys play with guns, and worms, and toy guns, and cowboys and indians, while girls play with dolls and makeup?

What makes a boy climb a tree, while a girl combs her dolls hair?

What makes boys get into a fight, while girls gossip?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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I think it makes far more sense to set a biology/skill level threshold for competition levels, rather than something like gender.

There is no men's or women's division, there is tier 1 competition, tier 2, etc.

You qualify for each tier based on physical makeup (hormones, muscle density, actual performance), and you can be moved up or down the tiers based on yearly or seasonal performance in your sport.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,505
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I am unprepared...

My first thought is of course girls can climb too. Anything you cited for child's play does not apply to everyone. They can also be environmental constructs. Further differences explained by the presence of estrogen or testosterone. I disagree with the significance you place on those examples. Yet I do not have any studies at hand to exemplify my estimation.

I'll yield the subject of "instinct" differences until I've something better.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
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What makes boys play with guns, and worms, and toy guns, and cowboys and indians, while girls play with dolls and makeup?

What makes a boy climb a tree, while a girl combs her dolls hair?

What makes boys get into a fight, while girls gossip?
Patriarchy!
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
2
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What makes boys play with guns, and worms, and toy guns, and cowboys and indians, while girls play with dolls and makeup?

What makes a boy climb a tree, while a girl combs her dolls hair?

What makes boys get into a fight, while girls gossip?
Societal pressure and stereotypes.

Patriarchy!
Meh, the same thing can happen in matriarchal societies, just to a lesser degree imo.
 
Last edited:

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
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Actually she's a human being, just as much a part of the human race as you or I.

If her physical/emotional/hormonal makeup is now in tune with her psychological then I don't mind what gender she chose. Nor do I mind if other humans make that choice.
Not to be a grammar nazi, but you keep spelling 'he' wrong. It doesn't start with an s. When discussing a male, use the male version 'he/his'.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,777
3
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Actually she's a human being, just as much a part of the human race as you or I.

If her physical/emotional/hormonal makeup is now in tune with her psychological then I don't mind what gender she chose. Nor do I mind if other humans make that choice.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
2
0
Not to be a grammar nazi, but you keep spelling 'he' wrong. It doesn't start with an s. When discussing a male, use the male version 'he/his'.
You should let TMZ know that as well since they also refer to Chloie as "she" and "her".

If they're responsibly reporting the story then they would've asked her how they should refer to her.
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,058
2
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Who cares, let the bundle of sticks race the women! Do you think he/she is gonna win?







Another manufactured controversy. I don't know about you guys but if you're willing to cut your own balls off to convince me you're a woman that's convincing enough for me.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,493
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Agreed with crossfit. I'm pretty sure being on estrogen and Antiandrogen for years doesn't have any kind of impact on physical ability or strength.
 
Nov 25, 2013
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I don't disagree with you, but I immediately am forced to ask a certain question here.

According to our own government's studies, white men are at a testosterone deficit as compared to black men. A gap of 15% on average is what they put it at.


(-snip- blah, blah, blah -snip-)


I know I harp on these issues a lot but I find them fascinating and I'm drawn to things people hold as taboos. I didn't mean to single you out, btw, Zorba. Just used your post as a springboard because it got me thinking about the issue. I promise I wasn't going to mention race in this thread until I saw that word testosterone and was reminded :)

How's that Holocaust research been working out for you?
 

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