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Transgender man suing CrossFit for not letting him compete against women

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,812
192
106
Born a man, had surgery to make him into a woman, wants to compete in the womens category.

CrossFit said no.

From the letter CrossFit sent him, even though he had surgery, he is still genetically a man. And as a man he has an advantage over women.

http://www.tmz.com/2014/03/06/crossfit-lawsuit-games-transgender-athlete-chloie-jonsson/

But in the letter, CF gets aggressive -- saying, "Our decision has nothing to do with 'ignorance' or being bigots -- it has to do with a very real understanding of the human genome, of fundamental biology, that you are either intentionally ignoring or missed in high school."
I fully agree with CrossFit. Surgery does not magically change a persons genetic code.

Born a man, always a man.

Born a woman, always a woman.

And that is just the way it is.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Born a man, had surgery to make him into a woman, wants to compete in the womens category.

CrossFit said no.

From the letter CrossFit sent him, even though he had surgery, he is still genetically a man. And as a man he has an advantage over women.

http://www.tmz.com/2014/03/06/crossfit-lawsuit-games-transgender-athlete-chloie-jonsson/



I fully agree with CrossFit. Surgery does not magically change a persons genetic code.

Born a man, always a man.

Born a woman, always a woman.

And that is just the way it is.
Agree with CrossFit.

Men indeed have a physical and athletic advantage over women. Changing your "junk" doesn't change you DNA.
 
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Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
2
81
Agree with CrossFit.

Men indeed have a physical and athletic advantage over women. Changing your "junk" doesn't change you DNA.
Remember that male to female MMA fighter who was beating the hell out of women? It was weird to watch weirdos support that person. If you said to me 20 years ago there would some day be a movement to allow men to beat the hell out of women, I would think you're nuts, but that's reality.

I'm posting this picture because it's double WTF. It's a man who beat the fuck out of women and the banner says America's employment is improving. The whole world is upside down.


The real story of America's job market:
 
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Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Remember that male to female MMA fighter who was beating the hell out of women? It was weird to watch weirdos support that person. If you said to me 20 years ago there would some day be a movement to allow men to beat the hell out of women, I would think you're nuts, but that's reality.
There was a debate as to whether or not "it" has an advantage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox#Alleged_advantage

...but to clear all this up, start a transgender division. Stop forcing this on the rest of the world.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
Women are always suing and complaining that they want to compete in men's arenas (NFL, NBA, business, law, etc.) so I don't see the problem with men entering womens'.
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
2
81
There was a debate as to whether or not "it" has an advantage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox#Alleged_advantage

...but to clear all this up, start a transgender division. Stop forcing this on the rest of the world.
Something about this makes me giggle hysterically :D
I'm still waiting to see an official steroid division. I want to see a "woman" built like Brock Lesnar.

Women are always suing and complaining that they want to compete in men's arenas
Source? I can't think of any women who wanted to play against Michael Jordan.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,652
199
101
This is the kind of insanity you create when you start down the path of suspending reality in favor of some politically correct notion of gender being whatever you want it to be. I don't care if you mutilate yourself and change your name, it doesn't change what you are.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
40,453
3,535
136
After watching the 2013 games, I doubt she would have a chance. Those women were beasts. Don't remember the #s but the announcers said that 5 (?) years ago there was only 1 woman that could dead lift X lbs. 2013 most of them could.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,777
3
0
This is the kind of insanity you create when you start down the path of suspending reality in favor of some politically correct notion of gender being whatever you want it to be. I don't care if you mutilate yourself and change your name, it doesn't change what you are.
This. And it applies to a hell of a lot more than gender, too.

This is the defining characteristic of the modern, deranged left. Complete denial of nature, while simultaneously mocking others for not believing in the power of biology and science re: evolution, homosexuality, and global warming.

Both sides have their pet issues where they want to pretend the laws of nature are suspended, because they'd prefer it be a certain way. Magical thinking.

Incredibly dangerous, not cute. Must end.
 

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
7,796
1,686
136
I think it should be pretty simple, if your testosterone is over X amount, you can't compete with women. I remember a story during the 2012 Olympics of a born women that had very high testosterone, and it always caused a controversy, to the put the IOC was looking into setting a testosterone limit.

Really, I have no problem with with women competing against men, in the men's league assuming they can actually compete, but it shouldn't be allowed the other way. just like if a 3A high school football team wants to play 6A, fine let them. But if a 6A team wants to play 3A, no way in hell.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,631
2,154
126
I thought this had been settled, and that you were whatever sex you claimed to be? How can they discriminate like that? Cross fit should be sued for forbidding this monster from competing.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
2
0
Genetically a man, yes.

Physically, hormonally, emotionally a man, not so much.

Humans are more than just their genetic coding.

Personally I could care less if she wants to fight against women or men, I just think there's a lot of mis(dis)information being propagated by some of the sides in this and other stories concerning transgendered people.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
2
0
So its a man and a woman?

What this boils down to is simply "choosing" what gender one wants to be.
Actually she's a human being, just as much a part of the human race as you or I.

If her physical/emotional/hormonal makeup is now in tune with her psychological then I don't mind what gender she chose. Nor do I mind if other humans make that choice.
 

The_AC

Member
May 29, 2012
28
0
0
Actually she's a human being, just as much a part of the human race as you or I.

If her physical/emotional/hormonal makeup is now in tune with her psychological then I don't mind what gender she chose. Nor do I mind if other humans make that choice.
Am I the only one who thinks it's cute how it's politically incorrect to say that men and women have mental differences, and it's politically correct to say that a transgender person has the mentality of the opposite gender?
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Actually she's a human being, just as much a part of the human race as you or I.

If her physical/emotional/hormonal makeup is now in tune with her psychological then I don't mind what gender she chose. Nor do I mind if other humans make that choice.
So we may as well not name babies and get rid of the "male/female" designation at birth, then, since they're all "subject to change".

I'm sure you'd be for name-less and sex/gender-less human beings walking around for several years until they decide.

Cool.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
2
0
Am I the only one who thinks it's cute how it's politically incorrect to say that men and women have mental differences, and it's politically correct to say that a transgender person has the mentality of the opposite gender?
I think it's cuter that some people use the phrase "politically incorrect" as a positive description of their words and/or thoughts; when it's really just an attempt to excuse their verbal bullying.
 

Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
10,177
925
126
Lots of ladyboys in Thailand. They compete against women there. I see no problem.

Some are actually attractive.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
2
0
So we may as well not name babies and get rid of the "male/female" designation at birth, then, since they're all "subject to change".

I'm sure you'd be for name-less and sex/gender-less human beings walking around for several years until they decide.

Cool.
Sounds intriguing.

Obviously not all would be subject to change; it's a small percentage of people who are born with differences in their physical/hormonal/emotional makeup.

It's possible we could learn a lot about ourselves without the stricture of being bound by just our physical makeup.

Oh by the way love the name change.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,491
2,994
126
Why have separate men / women sports, other gender segregation?

You must go back to the answer for this question. So long as those distinctions are upheld we must now allow men to cross over into women's sports and dominate the field with their natural advantage. Such distinctions are set up to prevent this.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Sounds intriguing.

Obviously not all would be subject to change; it's a small percentage of people who are born with differences in their physical/hormonal/emotional makeup.
...but who knows about the differences until years later? That's kind of my point -- to avoid the psychological self-abuse and outside pressure reported by those who have gender-identity issues, why not keep em' nameless and genderless until they decide?

This obviously comes from a comment made by Janet Mock(?), who said "I wasn't born a boy, I was born a baby". O.....kaayy.

It's possible we could learn a lot about ourselves without the stricture of being bound by just our physical makeup.
Sure, learning about ourselves is a great things, put most of this is clearly societal.

Oh by the way love the name change.
Thanks, I like it too. Will keep it this way.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,777
3
0
I think it should be pretty simple, if your testosterone is over X amount, you can't compete with women. I remember a story during the 2012 Olympics of a born women that had very high testosterone, and it always caused a controversy, to the put the IOC was looking into setting a testosterone limit.
I don't disagree with you, but I immediately am forced to ask a certain question here.

According to our own government's studies, white men are at a testosterone deficit as compared to black men. A gap of 15% on average is what they put it at.

"Mean testosterone levels in blacks were 19% higher than in whites, and free testosterone levels were 21% higher. Both these differences were statistically significant. Adjustment by analysis of covariance for time of sampling, age, weight, alcohol use, cigarette smoking, and use of prescription drugs somewhat reduced the differences. After these adjustments were made, blacks had a 15% higher testosterone level and a 13% higher free testosterone level."
Now, if we got to the point where we could easily and quickly gauge every individual participant's testosterone level, then I suppose we could just set up classes like boxing has weight classes.

But anyone who feels that using gender as a proxy for testosterone level is reasonable (and it is) should agree that using race as a proxy for testosterone level might be reasonable too. No?

There are also differences in musculature, running ability, bone structure, and ability to take in oxygen which helps immensely with any sort of sports. Whites are at a disadvantage in every one of these, and this couldn't be more obvious when you look at what the racial makeup has become in sports like football, basketball, and Olympic sprinting/distance running in just a few short decades from the time when these all used to be pretty much exclusively white due to the social structure at that time.

From Forbes magazine's site:

"For decades, a bushel of developing countries—Jamaica, Cuba, Trinidad and Tobago, Saint Kitts, Barbados, Grenada, Netherlands Antilles and the Bahamas in the Caribbean and Nigeria, Cameroon, Ivory Coast, Senegal and Namibia in western Africa, as single countries, have each produced more elite male sprinters than all of white Europe and Asia combined. Yet West African descended runners are laggards at the longer races.

Remarkably, the story of East African runners is the mirror image of the West African success story. While terrible at the sprints, runners from Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda and Somalia, along with a sprinkling of North and Southern Africans, regularly dominate endurance running.

And if you are an Asian or white runner? Forgetaboutit.

...

The trends are eye opening: Athletes of African ancestry hold every major male running record, from the 100 meters to the marathon."


So, I'm sorry to bring up race again but keep in mind, all that I have linked to and quoted here are Forbes magazine and the US Govt's Health Institutes - not exactly "Stormfront" haha, which is of course everyone's favorite website to yell about when ever anyone dares to mention unpleasant realities about this kind of stuff.

Not trying to be inflammatory, just honestly can't help but think about the double standard here. Almost everyone (or is it just flat out everyone?) in this thread seems to agree it is unfair to females to have their sports opened up to males, and have to compete with males - you've mentioned the testosterone gap as one reason why, and you're absolutely right to do so. There are other considerations, but most of them touch on the testosterone thing and are related. It's a suite of differences that are all interrelated and fed by the testosterone gap.

This is also why steroids (synthetic testosterone) are prohibited, of course. They provide an unfair advantage just like a large natural testosterone gap does.

But to bring this point back home, what I'm saying is, how can anyone who feels it is unfair for women to have to compete against men, possibly logically justify not feeling the same way about racial groups having to compete against one another?

Especially with an extreme example like a Korean runner having to compete with runners from Jamaica. Essentially, he never had a chance of winning and the competition was (in large part) decided before it began. That isn't fair or right. Is it?

And is it fair for white basketball players to be in the same league as black basketball players? It quite simply is not, and no one here can argue that it is without being dishonest. I'm not as familiar with football, but my understanding is that whites have been getting pushed out of that sport too, except for in certain positions. Likely the ones that don't rely as much on running, am I right?

Likewise, it is simply unfair for black swimmers to compete against Eurasian swimmers, look up the statistics, they haven't a prayer. Having been through Navy boot camp, I can assure you that there is a genetic disadvantage for blacks with swimming. Whites (including myself) who hadn't swam in years, and never had lessons, still passed the very basic swimming test, while black recruits had to go back for a retry morning after morning after morning. This experience is universal. The remedial swimming class is entirely black or 99.999% black. Anyone who doubts this, feel free to look into it. I've heard that whites have greater upper body/arm strength though, so that may also have implications for weight lifting, and similar.

I know I harp on these issues a lot but I find them fascinating and I'm drawn to things people hold as taboos. I didn't mean to single you out, btw, Zorba. Just used your post as a springboard because it got me thinking about the issue. I promise I wasn't going to mention race in this thread until I saw that word testosterone and was reminded :)
 
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