Transgender ban suspended by Mattis

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
22,387
5,003
136
I don't see any thing to twist about it is the right thing to do. They are not accepting any recruit trans people. They need to figure out what to do with current members.



"In the interim, current policy with respect to currently serving members will remain in place."

Mattis' move buys time for the Pentagon to determine how and if it will allow thousands of transgender troops to continue to serve, whether they will receive medical treatment, or how they will be discharged.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
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So that's the 2nd major cabinet member to come out and distance themselves from Trump in the last week. First Tillerson, now Mattis is challenging.
 

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
12,363
475
126
So that's the 2nd major cabinet member to come out and distance themselves from Trump in the last week. First Tillerson, now Mattis is challenging.
uh oh, sounds like it's time for another 'let's go around the room and tell me how great i am' meeting
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,505
33,045
136
I don't see any thing to twist about it is the right thing to do. They are not accepting any recruit trans people. They need to figure out what to do with current members.



"In the interim, current policy with respect to currently serving members will remain in place."

Mattis' move buys time for the Pentagon to determine how and if it will allow thousands of transgender troops to continue to serve, whether they will receive medical treatment, or how they will be discharged.
Since they are so appreciated why don't we just discharge them?

Have you overlooked more and more of the top military brass along with the SoS have publicly stated directly or indirectly Trump does not represent American values?
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
2,625
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Am I remembering it wrong, but didn't Trump come out with an official executive order not too long ago saying exactly what Mattis did (no effect on current members so long as their trans status doesn't cause increased medical expense and if their commanders approve, no new trans enlistees)?
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,390
15,763
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Am I remembering it wrong, but didn't Trump come out with an official executive order not too long ago saying exactly what Mattis did (no effect on current members so long as their trans status doesn't cause increased medical expense and if their commanders approve, no new trans enlistees)?

I dont know, I could find this though:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/23/politics/white-house-memo-transgender-military-ban/index.html

"
Among the memo's directions: The military is to stop admitting transgender people; and for current transgender troops, the Pentagon should consider a service member's ability to deploy when determining whether to expel them, the newspaper reported, citing the officials.
The memo also instructs the Pentagon to stop paying for transgender troops' medical treatment regimens, the officials told the paper.
"
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,252
12,421
136
Am I remembering it wrong, but didn't Trump come out with an official executive order not too long ago saying exactly what Mattis did (no effect on current members so long as their trans status doesn't cause increased medical expense and if their commanders approve, no new trans enlistees)?
I'm sure he tweeted it. So it's in the record and official (per Trump standards).
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
22,387
5,003
136
Since they are so appreciated why don't we just discharge them?

Have you overlooked more and more of the top military brass along with the SoS have publicly stated directly or indirectly Trump does not represent American values?

They discharge people all the time for medical reasons. This is no different. I personally have no issue with trans people in the military. I have issue with the taxpayers funding their " change ".
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I dont know, I could find this though:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/23/politics/white-house-memo-transgender-military-ban/index.html

"
Among the memo's directions: The military is to stop admitting transgender people; and for current transgender troops, the Pentagon should consider a service member's ability to deploy when determining whether to expel them, the newspaper reported, citing the officials.
The memo also instructs the Pentagon to stop paying for transgender troops' medical treatment regimens, the officials told the paper.
"
I don't think the military should be paying for sex reassignment surgery or necessarily accepting (or necessarily not accepting - I have no firm beliefs either way) openly trans recruits, but seems to me that paying for transgender troops' medical treatment should be part of the decision whether to keep them. If a transgendered person has a work history and institutional knowledge which make that person worth keeping in the military, then I don't see how not paying for normal hormone treatments and non-specialist medical expenses is reasonable any more than deciding not to pay for cholesterol medication. I can certainly understand why funding very expensive sex reassignment surgery or such specialists from the military's limited and scarce funding isn't appropriate any more than penis enlargement or breast enlargement surgery, but refusing to fund any transgender medical treatment doesn't seem kosher. If a trans person is worth keeping in the military, surely such medical care as can be rendered by the branch's physicians should also be covered.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,390
15,763
136
I don't think the military should be paying for sex reassignment surgery or necessarily accepting (or necessarily not accepting - I have no firm beliefs either way) openly trans recruits, but seems to me that paying for transgender troops' medical treatment should be part of the decision whether to keep them. If a transgendered person has a work history and institutional knowledge which make that person worth keeping in the military, then I don't see how not paying for normal hormone treatments and non-specialist medical expenses is reasonable any more than deciding not to pay for cholesterol medication. I can certainly understand why funding very expensive sex reassignment surgery or such specialists from the military's limited and scarce funding isn't appropriate any more than penis enlargement or breast enlargement surgery, but refusing to fund any transgender medical treatment doesn't seem kosher. If a trans person is worth keeping in the military, surely such medical care as can be rendered by the branch's physicians should also be covered.

Another take could be what service in the military actually pays? One could argue that by serving in the military you get a lousy pay check, lousy hours and no hassard pay but at least you got your medical covered. Someone is willing to give their life for their country and counterwise their country be like, nah bro, eff off.
I would not put breast enlargment or penis enhancement in the same bracket as getting your weiner cut off, that is in a whole other category than cosmetic, that is not something you do cause it would be nice that is something you do cause you have to.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Another take could be what service in the military actually pays? One could argue that by serving in the military you get a lousy pay check, lousy hours and no hassard pay but at least you got your medical covered. Someone is willing to give their life for their country and counterwise their country be like, nah bro, eff off.
I would not put breast enlargment or penis enhancement in the same bracket as getting your weiner cut off, that is in a whole other category than cosmetic, that is not something you do cause it would be nice that is something you do cause you have to.
That's a reasonable assessment. For my part, I put all such operations in the realm of things people do to make their bodies ones in which they can be comfortable. It's all elective surgery, just driven by varying degrees of urgency. However, if we make the very expensive surgery part of the military's function, then we are going to attract people whose sole reason for serving is to have that surgery. In a profession where one's very life may hang on the efficiency and dedication of service members one will never even see, I don't think that is wise or ethical.

We get the occasional Bradley Manning even when not allowing openly gay people to serve, much less trans people. I don't think it's wise or ethical to encourage people who may well despise everything the American military represents with the lure of getting very expensive surgery for free. If we then have trans persons serving, they are there because they honestly want to serve. That should then be a purely military decision as to whether that person will likely be a net asset or liability.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,400
13,005
136
That's a reasonable assessment. For my part, I put all such operations in the realm of things people do to make their bodies ones in which they can be comfortable. It's all elective surgery, just driven by varying degrees of urgency. However, if we make the very expensive surgery part of the military's function, then we are going to attract people whose sole reason for serving is to have that surgery. In a profession where one's very life may hang on the efficiency and dedication of service members one will never even see, I don't think that is wise or ethical.

We get the occasional Bradley Manning even when not allowing openly gay people to serve, much less trans people. I don't think it's wise or ethical to encourage people who may well despise everything the American military represents with the lure of getting very expensive surgery for free. If we then have trans persons serving, they are there because they honestly want to serve. That should then be a purely military decision as to whether that person will likely be a net asset or liability.

to counter-argue, how is the GI bill any different than covering medical costs for certain surgeries? a full ride at a private school can easily go beyond $100k. seems like a pretty solid incentive to me.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,253
4,927
136
This one will end up before SCOTUS and the taxpayers will have another enormous idiotic high dollar tab to pickup because of some radical agenda.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,505
33,045
136
I don't think the military should be paying for sex reassignment surgery or necessarily accepting (or necessarily not accepting - I have no firm beliefs either way) openly trans recruits, but seems to me that paying for transgender troops' medical treatment should be part of the decision whether to keep them. If a transgendered person has a work history and institutional knowledge which make that person worth keeping in the military, then I don't see how not paying for normal hormone treatments and non-specialist medical expenses is reasonable any more than deciding not to pay for cholesterol medication. I can certainly understand why funding very expensive sex reassignment surgery or such specialists from the military's limited and scarce funding isn't appropriate any more than penis enlargement or breast enlargement surgery, but refusing to fund any transgender medical treatment doesn't seem kosher. If a trans person is worth keeping in the military, surely such medical care as can be rendered by the branch's physicians should also be covered.
If busting the budget for POTUS to fly home to FLA almost every weekend is ok why fight treatments for a few soldiers who put their lives on the line for the country. I doubt people aren't joining the military just to get the treatments. After all trump can stay in the WH weekends to save money. That money could offset treatment costs.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,253
4,927
136
If busting the budget for POTUS to fly home to FLA almost every weekend is ok why fight treatments for a few soldiers who put their lives on the line for the country. I doubt people aren't joining the military just to get the treatments. After all trump can stay in the WH weekends to save money. That money could offset treatment costs.
Not to mention that POTUS is a draft dodger and anything he says in reference to the military falls on deaf ears with me.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
63,061
19,364
136
I can certainly understand why funding very expensive sex reassignment surgery or such specialists from the military's limited and scarce funding isn't appropriate any more than penis enlargement or breast enlargement surgery, but refusing to fund any transgender medical treatment doesn't seem kosher. If a trans person is worth keeping in the military, surely such medical care as can be rendered by the branch's physicians should also be covered.
Did I read this part right? Are we still talking about the US military here?
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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to counter-argue, how is the GI bill any different than covering medical costs for certain surgeries? a full ride at a private school can easily go beyond $100k. seems like a pretty solid incentive to me.
That's certainly a reasonable argument. If the benefits were for after one's service ended, it would be a better comparison, but the cost is probably similar. (Although point of fact, the GI bill caps at something like $20k a year, whereas sexual reassignment is typically more expensive.) But it's certainly close enough that it's a fair point. http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/31/health/transgender-costs-irpt/index.html

Frankly I'd have a much easier time accepting it as a benefit comparable to the GI Bill's educational benefits. (Though of course, those who received a hundred grand in sexual reassignment surgery would still be eligible for another hundred grand in educational benefits.) But there are also monthly costs to be trans, especially if one is getting hormone therapy. Bottom line, I think that one's time in the military should be dedicated to the military, and having expensive elective surgery does not fit that description.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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If busting the budget for POTUS to fly home to FLA almost every weekend is ok why fight treatments for a few soldiers who put their lives on the line for the country. I doubt people aren't joining the military just to get the treatments. After all trump can stay in the WH weekends to save money. That money could offset treatment costs.
That's a different budget; Trump flying home does not remove money for soldiers needing modern body armor. Although philosophically I wouldn't object to Congress establishing financial limits on how often POTUS vacations in areas other than Camp David or similar areas with standing protection details.
 
Nov 25, 2013
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That's certainly a reasonable argument. If the benefits were for after one's service ended, it would be a better comparison, but the cost is probably similar. (Although point of fact, the GI bill caps at something like $20k a year, whereas sexual reassignment is typically more expensive.) But it's certainly close enough that it's a fair point. http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/31/health/transgender-costs-irpt/index.html

Frankly I'd have a much easier time accepting it as a benefit comparable to the GI Bill's educational benefits. (Though of course, those who received a hundred grand in sexual reassignment surgery would still be eligible for another hundred grand in educational benefits.) But there are also monthly costs to be trans, especially if one is getting hormone therapy. Bottom line, I think that one's time in the military should be dedicated to the military, and having expensive elective surgery does not fit that description.

Yes, it's such a burden on the budget

"According to a 2016 study by the Rand Corporation and commissioned by Barack Obama’s secretary of defense, transgender-related healthcare for active duty military would cost anywhere between $2.4m to $8.4m – not billions.

In fiscal year 2014, before the study was completed, the Pentagon spent $6.27bn on healthcare costs for all active-duty personnel. That same fiscal year, the Pentagon spend a huge $49.3bn on all healthcare costs – for members of the military, their family members, and retirees and their families.

These comparisons uses the high-end estimate of $8.4m, which is based on a scenario that members of the military are twice as likely to be transgender as members of the general public."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/26/trans-health-cost-us-military-budget-pentagon
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Yes, it's such a burden on the budget

"According to a 2016 study by the Rand Corporation and commissioned by Barack Obama’s secretary of defense, transgender-related healthcare for active duty military would cost anywhere between $2.4m to $8.4m – not billions.

In fiscal year 2014, before the study was completed, the Pentagon spent $6.27bn on healthcare costs for all active-duty personnel. That same fiscal year, the Pentagon spend a huge $49.3bn on all healthcare costs – for members of the military, their family members, and retirees and their families.

These comparisons uses the high-end estimate of $8.4m, which is based on a scenario that members of the military are twice as likely to be transgender as members of the general public."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/26/trans-health-cost-us-military-budget-pentagon
That's certainly a valid point. I highly doubt the ratio would be a mere 2:1 if the military becomes an employer that not only funds sex changes but also pays you while recuperating, but it's still likely to remain a very small percentage of health care spending.