TPU: NVIDIA Readies Non-Ti GeForce GTX 560 To Ward Off HD 6790 Threat

[railven]

I agree with most of this, but how is the 6800 series an improvement in performance over 5800 series? 6850 is slower than 5850, and 6870 is slower than 5870. If we want to pretend that 6790 is really a 6800 series card (since it's harvested barts gpus instead of an inherently weaker arch) you could say that it's better than 5830 with no arguments at least.

This just reminds me more than ATI was stupid to change the generation names. If the 68xx launched as the 67xx we wouldn't have to try to explain to non-PC people why the performance shifts aren't as visible.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

What's in a name?

 

[TerabyteX]

That proves that the HD 6790 comes witha single PCI-E 6pin power connector.

http://www.techpowerup.com/143399/ColorFire-Ready-with-Radeon-HD-6790-Graphics-Card.html

 

[mosox]

I don't get it

Nvidia's DX11 series looks like something made out of patches, it's not consistent. Lots of different chips and solutions as they scrambled to fill the gaps while ATI/AMD was steaming ahead. Looks like someone who bought mismatched furniture at various garage sales for his house. Nothing like their previous series who were rock solid and well thought. Changing the processors like socks, lots of factory overclocked cards trying hard to match the competition's, all their gaming developer partners doing their best to squeeze a few extra fps from this or that game through software tricks,, humble requests to use this or that card, bench or game in the reviews and their PR department/Focus group in alert mode that's not the Nvidia I know.

 

[hdfxst]

That proves that the HD 6790 comes witha single PCI-E 6pin power connector.

http://www.techpowerup.com/143399/ColorFire-Ready-with-Radeon-HD-6790-Graphics-Card.html

We'll find out tuesday,that link shows 1 6 pin and this link has 2 http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1598095

 

[notty22]

Nvidia's DX11 series looks like something made out of patches, it's not consistent. Lots of different chips and solutions as they scrambled to fill the gaps while ATI/AMD was steaming ahead. Looks like someone who bought mismatched furniture at various garage sales for his house. Nothing like their previous series who were rock solid and well thought. Changing the processors like socks, lots of factory overclocked cards trying hard to match the competition's, all their gaming developer partners doing their best to squeeze a few extra fps from this or that game through software tricks,, humble requests to use this or that card, bench or game in the reviews and their PR department/Focus group in alert mode that's not the Nvidia I know.

:\

 

[taltamir]

Nvidia's DX11 series looks like something made out of patches, it's not consistent. Lots of different chips and solutions as they scrambled to fill the gaps while ATI/AMD was steaming ahead. Looks like someone who bought mismatched furniture at various garage sales for his house. Nothing like their previous series who were rock solid and well thought. Changing the processors like socks, lots of factory overclocked cards trying hard to match the competition's, all their gaming developer partners doing their best to squeeze a few extra fps from this or that game through software tricks,, humble requests to use this or that card, bench or game in the reviews and their PR department/Focus group in alert mode that's not the Nvidia I know.

huh? isn't the only real distinguishing feature of DX11 tessellation?
Doesn't fermi slaughter AMD's cards in tessellation?

And what do you mean different chips? they have one monolithic chip, there is no "tessellation co-processor". And what do you mean "not solid"? is it buggy?

 

[mosox]

Yep. Going straight to their (over)tesselation. Soon you'll have to emphasize the color of their PCBs on their cards, lacking everything else to brag about. How much did the GF100 last, a few months? GF104 its on it's way out. How many of their DX11 cards are worth buying, two or three maybe? Where are the G92 days? Sigh.

 

[CrystalBay]

The 68's series are seriously the best of the 40nm chips for AMD , by Far:biggrin:

 

[krumme]

huh? isn't the only real distinguishing feature of DX11 tessellation?
Doesn't fermi slaughter AMD's cards in tessellation?

And what do you mean different chips? they have one monolithic chip, there is no "tessellation co-processor". And what do you mean "not solid"? is it buggy?

If we look at the current perf/die disadvantage NV have to AMD - a disadvange that wasnt there in the 8xxx series, one have to pose the question why it is so? - add the unheard massive use of very expensive tantalum capacitors for the top end models, NV clearly push their cards performance at the expense of cost for the consumer market.

As the engineers ofcourse is just as competent as AMD, one can wonder if the purpose of the card was targeted more at the professional front or what?

Saying AMD and NV cards is the same performance or "on par" for the consumer market, from a business perspective, is nonsense as it stands today. Clearly something happened for the fermi arch that need to be explained, besides the double vias and production problems from the start. I dont know what it is. But i find it hard to beliewe there is such a difference for perf/die size (and then perf/watt) that can be explained by decisions on the more technical level, - dont know...?

 

[Arkadrel]

huh? isn't the only real distinguishing feature of DX11 tessellation?
Doesn't fermi slaughter AMD's cards in tessellation?

depends... with light tessellation factors... no.
With crazy high tessellation factors, yes.
(^ this seems only matter in benchmarks, as games dont use this)

DX 11 features:

DirectCompute
Tessellation
new texture compression algorithms
multithreaded rendering
transparency antialiasing Ambient occlusion
Postprocessing Effects ( depth of field, ect)
..
.
.

Yeah Tessellation, Ambient Occlusion, and Depth of Field are probably the most distinguising features, simply because their the visual perceptable improvements made vs the last directx. But the other stuff, like the improved texture compression algorithms and multi-threaded rendering are important features too.

 

[3DVagabond]

I agree with most of this, but how is the 6800 series an improvement in performance over 5800 series? 6850 is slower than 5850, and 6870 is slower than 5870. If we want to pretend that 6790 is really a 6800 series card (since it's harvested barts gpus instead of an inherently weaker arch) you could say that it's better than 5830 with no arguments at least.

Don't go by the names. Go by the actual performance of the chips relative to each other. For example, the 5850 has 1440 spu and the 6870 has only 1120 but is faster in almost every measurement. It does this while consuming no more power, is smaller, and has fewer transistors. To me, that's an improvement.

 

[Arkadrel]

I agree with most of this, but how is the 6800 series an improvement in performance over 5800 series? 6850 is slower than 5850, and 6870 is slower than 5870. If we want to pretend that 6790 is really a 6800 series card (since it's harvested barts gpus instead of an inherently weaker arch) you could say that it's better than 5830 with no arguments at least.

Forget the names, just think of them as chips.

chip 1 is 334mm^2 and gives you A performance.
chip 2 is 255mm^2 (-32% smaller) and gives you A performance -9%.

Performance / mm^2 is up from with the newer 68xx chips. (also performance/watt)

The chip is good, the name? maybe you would have liked it better at 67xx?




6870 is pretty close to a 470 in performance (2-3%) (Techpowerup).
Sometimes faster (on avg than the 470), depending on which games reviewers use to compaire them.

6870 is 255mm^2 (uses avg of 108watts)
470 is 529mm^2 (uses avg of 150watts)


The 470 is "twice" as big a chip, uses like 40% more power, and gives roughly the same performance.

How is the 6870 a bad chip?

 

[Keysplayr]

The more cards that are out there at different price points, the better.

 

[taltamir]

depends... with light tessellation factors... no.
With crazy high tessellation factors, yes.

not quite. with light tessellation the FPS drop is minor. With high tessellation factors the FPS drops to nothing on AMD, and not on nVidia... this isn't because AMD is "more efficient at low tessellation factors", its because you are turning it down.
Its not different than using low AA on cards that can't handle AA.

as for Ambient Occlusion and Depth of Field, both are DX10 features, not DX11.

And speaking of, Depth of Field is another blight on gaming, since everyone grossly misuses it and it causes uncomfortable out of focus image, out of focus in places it has no reason at all being out of focus. As if your character has some sort of rare and bizarre eye defect. But thats tangential, the important bit is that it is a DX10, not DX11 feature.

finally, new texture compression algorithms and multithreaded rendering are performance improvement techniques moreso then features. But granted, that can leave you with more cycles to use on other things to make the image better overall.

 

[Arkadrel]

not quite. with light tessellation the FPS drop is minor. With high tessellation factors the FPS drops to nothing on AMD, and not on nVidia.

AMD cards all crawl with Tessellation right? And the Nvidia ones dont?

OMG the 580 is 1.1 fps faster! than the PowerColour HD 6970 PCS!
And 3.2 fps faster than the stock 6970!

What the heck... something must be wrong here right? the 580 is no longer faster in this bench.

 

[taltamir]

AMD cards all crawl with Tessellation right?

With high tessellation.

As for the graphs... what review is this from? what is the tessellation factor used to run that benchmark?

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/GPU11/226
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/GPU11/227
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/GPU11/224
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/GPU11/225

 

[Arkadrel]

@Funny you should ask that... because it doesnt say in the links you posted.

I dont even know what benchmark program Im looking at (it does show GPU bench 2011 at top after looking around the page for info, never heard of it though, youtube shows nothing when I search for it).

All I see is "fps higher is better", and one is getting 1500 scores, and another 500 scores.

Does GPU bench have anything to do with real world games and tessellation?
Also must not be a very demanding test if there are 1500 fps scores.

Atleast Unigine is beatifull and plays like it was a well made game, sometime into the future.

 

[taltamir]

@Funny you should ask that... because it doesnt say in the links you posted.

Yes it does, in two separate spots. I linked to the anandtech "Bench" database and it has all the info, you just failed to read it.
You directly linked pictures of graphs that actually do not specify.

Does GPU bench have anything to do with real world games and tessellation?

Yes, two are the anandtech in house benchmark at different setting, and the other two are the unigene heaven at different tessellation settings.
It is all clearly labeled.

 

[tviceman]

AMD cards all crawl with Tessellation right? And the Nvidia ones dont?

OMG the 580 is 1.1 fps faster! than the PowerColour HD 6970 PCS!
And 3.2 fps faster than the stock 6970!


What the heck... something must be wrong here right? the 580 is no longer faster in this bench.

Come on, quit trolling with your selections. Turn the tessellation up in that benchmark, and AMD cards will slow down significantly more than Nvidia cards.

 

[Arkadrel]

found it.. (the name of the bench's in your links)

its odd that Anandtech scores variate from the ones from Techpower up.


http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Powercolor/HD_6970_PCS_Plus/20.html

TPU - extreme? tes heaven 2.0 2560x1600 4xAA
580 ~ 31.9 fps
6970 ~ 32.1 fps

^above with NVIDIA: 266.58 and ATI: Catalyst 11.1


http://www.anandtech.com/bench/GPU11/225

Anandtech - extreme tes heaven x.x? res? AA? ect
580 ~ 35.2 fps
6970 ~ 25.7 fps

what driver versions? are they useing? ect ect.

 

[Silverforce11]

Come on, quit trolling with your selections. Turn the tessellation up in that benchmark, and AMD cards will slow down significantly more than Nvidia cards.

Not with the current gen GPUs. Only in raw tess-mark will NV's gpu have an advantage. But with dx11 games using tessellation, its no longer an advantage.

 

[taltamir]

The anandtech "moderate tesselation" unigene results seem to match up perfectly with the techpowerup 1920x1200 unigene heaven test.

Anandtech does not specify resolution, AA, or drivers in the "bench" database (the reviews where they first appear does state those, but they are not linked)

Techpowerup does not specify the level of tesselation (kinda ironic for a tessellation benchmark). In both cases I would like to see more clear info. However, the anandtech test does show that as tesselation levels are increased, AMD takes a disproportionately heavier hit.

Lets get back to the root of the argument here. After all, by the time tessellation becomes relevant we will be comparing the GTX780 to the HD8970... And all current gen cards will be unable to provide playable FPS with it on in said future games.
But the argument was whether nVidia's DX11 is implementation is "bad" compared to AMDs. DX11 main feature is tesselation and when you crank it up nVidia does it better. It happens, AMD had much better AA then nvidia last gen, nvidia has much better tesselation this gen. It doesn't really matter because there are not games with it yet. But I despise lies and FUD and the notion that nVidia's DX11 is some sort of "patched together" failure that is inherently inferior to AMD's DX11 is ridiculous.

 

[krumme]

Its absolutesly not in NV interest to use a 550mm2 part with expensive board and board components to fight a far more cost effective design on the high-end consumer market.

The small corner of the story with tesselation - and the technical/software solution here - just understates, the arc was intended for another market.

You dont get those perf/die mm2 differences unless there its a more strategic choice. I can not imagine this can be a "pilot" problem. But ofcourse one never knows if you dont have the real inside information...?

 

[taltamir]

Its absolutesly not in NV interest to use a 550mm2 part with expensive board and board components to fight a far more cost effective design on the high-end consumer market.

Who are you talking to? what argument is that countering? whatever it is it hasn't been discussed for pages, I don't mind going back to it but I am just not sure in what context to take what you say.