Toyota or Honda?

[OS]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: NFS4
The point is, there is the potential for increased city mileage if the engine is off during around town cruising or stop and go traffic. That's why the Prius' city mileage is roughly 10 more than a Civic Hybrid.

Think about it. Your sitting in bumper to bumper traffic. One person in a Civic Hybrid, one person in a Prius. Civic cuts off its engine while your stopped. Traffic moves a little bit...Civic cuts its engine back on creeps forward 15 feet, stops, cuts off engine again. Pretty inefficient IMHO.

The Prius would just creep forward under its own electric power w/o any intervention from the gas motor at all.

Wouldn't really matter all that much to me as I live in an area where bumper to bumper traffic isn't THAT bad. But in some places (like CA), I can see where it might be beneficial.

There's no such thing as free energy. The electric motor creeping the car forward had to come from the gas engine anyways.

The batteries are charged when the engine is running. So if you're driving to work for ~15 - 20 minutes on gas/electric power at crusing speed, the batteries are charging. You hit traffic. You doddle around for another 20-25 minutes on battery power alone in bumper to bumper traffic. You break traffic and continue to work and batteries start charging again.

During that 20-25 minutes that you're pissing around in bumper to bumper traffic, the Prius would be running off battery power. A Civic would be alternating between gas engine on and gas engine off.

It doesn't really matter when the charging/discharging happens, you can't break the laws of physics. There is no such thing as free energy.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: NFS4
The point is, there is the potential for increased city mileage if the engine is off during around town cruising or stop and go traffic. That's why the Prius' city mileage is roughly 10 more than a Civic Hybrid.

Think about it. Your sitting in bumper to bumper traffic. One person in a Civic Hybrid, one person in a Prius. Civic cuts off its engine while your stopped. Traffic moves a little bit...Civic cuts its engine back on creeps forward 15 feet, stops, cuts off engine again. Pretty inefficient IMHO.

The Prius would just creep forward under its own electric power w/o any intervention from the gas motor at all.

Wouldn't really matter all that much to me as I live in an area where bumper to bumper traffic isn't THAT bad. But in some places (like CA), I can see where it might be beneficial.

There's no such thing as free energy. The electric motor creeping the car forward had to come from the gas engine anyways.

The batteries are charged when the engine is running. So if you're driving to work for ~15 - 20 minutes on gas/electric power at crusing speed, the batteries are charging. You hit traffic. You doddle around for another 20-25 minutes on battery power alone in bumper to bumper traffic. You break traffic and continue to work and batteries start charging again.

During that 20-25 minutes that you're pissing around in bumper to bumper traffic, the Prius would be running off battery power. A Civic would be alternating between gas engine on and gas engine off.

It doesn't really matter when the charging/discharging happens, you can't break the laws of physics. There is no such thing as free energy.

I'm not saying it's free. I said that the batteries charge as you're driving, you use the energy from charging while pissing around in traffic, then replenish the batteries when you break traffic.

I don't see what's so hard to understand?

What's so hard to understand that the Prius can move forward on battery power alone (given that there is enough charge left) and the Civic can't?

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: NFS4
I'm not saying it's free. I said that the batteries charge as you're driving, you use the energy from charging while pissing around in traffic, then replenish the batteries when you break traffic.

I don't see what's so hard to understand?

What's so hard to understand that the Prius can move forward on battery power alone (given that there is enough charge left) and the Civic can't?

You seem to be ignoring the civic can also use electric assist during acceleration. It may need to put in some more power from the gas engine, but that energy can be recovered from braking.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: NFS4
I'm not saying it's free. I said that the batteries charge as you're driving, you use the energy from charging while pissing around in traffic, then replenish the batteries when you break traffic.

I don't see what's so hard to understand?

What's so hard to understand that the Prius can move forward on battery power alone (given that there is enough charge left) and the Civic can't?

You seem to be ignoring the civic can also use electric assist during acceleration. It may need to put in some more power from the gas engine, but that energy can be recovered from braking.

As can the Prius. My point was that the Prius can do all of that and still "creep" up to 25MPH w/o the need of the gas engine given charged batteries. The Civic can't move anywhere with battery power alone.

That was my whole point. It always has the gas engine turning if it's in forward motion.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: NFS4
As can the Prius. My point was that the Prius can do all of that and still "creep" up to 25MPH w/o the need of the gas engine given charged batteries. The Civic can't move anywhere with battery power alone.

That was my whole point. It always has the gas engine turning if it's in forward motion.

It's not incredibly important the gas engine must come on during acceleration. The energy the gas engine put in will be recovered anyways.

It doesn't matter when the gas engine comes on, the point is it must do so sooner or later to make up for energy used by the electric motor.

 

[0roo0roo]

toyota had the first full AND practical hybrid. hondas full hybrid was a tiny toy. their other ones are mild hybrids

It's not incredibly important the gas engine must come on during acceleration. The energy the gas engine put in will be recovered anyways.

It doesn't matter when the gas engine comes on, the point is it must do so sooner or later to make up for energy used by the electric motor.

not really because the whole point is the electric motor is more efficient at the lower speeds.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
toyota had the first full AND practical hybrid. hondas full hybrid was a tiny toy. their other ones are mild hybrids

It's not incredibly important the gas engine must come on during acceleration. The energy the gas engine put in will be recovered anyways.

It doesn't matter when the gas engine comes on, the point is it must do so sooner or later to make up for energy used by the electric motor.

not really because the whole point is the electric motor is more efficient at the lower speeds.

more efficient? Mind you the electric motor is one step removed from the original energy source, gasoline. Each step away from the original source is a loss in efficiency.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: NFS4
As can the Prius. My point was that the Prius can do all of that and still "creep" up to 25MPH w/o the need of the gas engine given charged batteries. The Civic can't move anywhere with battery power alone.

That was my whole point. It always has the gas engine turning if it's in forward motion.

It's not incredibly important the gas engine must come on during acceleration. The energy the gas engine put in will be recovered anyways.

It doesn't matter when the gas engine comes on, the point is it must do so sooner or later to make up for energy used by the electric motor.

I still don't see your point

First of all, for the Prius, the gas engine doesn't have to come on for acceleration. If you are accelerating lightly up to 25MPH, the gas engine doesn't come on at all. Sure, if you floor it, the gas engine will come in to pick up the slack.

The Prius allows you to use your reserve battery power to move forward w/o intervention from the gas engine. OK, I don't think anyone is disputing this...

Sure, there is a finite amount of energy available to power the vehicle forward in electric only mode, but the capability is there. It is not in the Civic.

As far as replenishing the energy used by the batteries, what's the fuss? It's a no-lose situation b/c as the gasoline engine is running, the batteries are charging.

Let's put it another way. Let's say that both the Civic and the Prius has fully charged batteries.

You have two drivers, one in the Civic, one in the Prius. You tell them to accelerate slowly to 20MPH and maintain that speed.

**Prius driver accelerates to 20MPH on electric power alone and maintains that speed. Gas engine is not on at all
**Civic driver accelerates to 20MPH on gas/electric power and maintains speed. Gas engine is constantly running.

Let say that both the Civic and Prius cover 5 miles. The Prius has just driven 5 miles without using any gas. The Civic has driven 5 miles while using gas.

Ok, the vehicles continue to move forward at 20MPH. Let's say that the Prius's battery reserve dies out at 20 miles. The gas engine kicks in and the vehicle maintains 20MPH while recharging the batteries.

The Civic is still going at 20MPH with the gas and electric motors running.


**So the Prius has just gone 20 miles without using any fuel.
**The Civic has just gone 20 miles using fuel
**The Prius doesn't start using fuel until after the 20 mile marker

Hypothetically speaking of course

 

[IAteYourMother]

I think the Prius was first (bump out gregbil)

 

[OS]

If you accelerate the prius electric only, it uses more charge than accelerating gas/electric mixed. Work is not free.

Since you are using more charge in electric only mode, this is extra energy you pulled out from your battery, an exra energy cost which must be paid back in. This energy must come from somewhere and ultimately it comes from the gas engine.

In this case, when the engine does come back on from running electric only, it must work harder to recharge the difference in lost charge compared to running mixed mode.

 

[QuitBanningMe]

Toyota

 

[DainBramaged]

bump against Gregbil

 

[eelw]

Originally posted by: eelw

Originally posted by: NFS4
1) I'm still not following with you saying that the Toyota won't start...it's the same basic principal as the Honda

Toyota has the electric and gas components running in serial. While Honda is in parellel. So like any serial circuit, if one component fails, the entire system is dead.

See Complete dependence on the electric portion is not necessarily the best design to use.

And in regards to the Civic Hybrid not being able to restart from autostop if the electric portion was to fail, at least you can turn off the Civic Hybrid and still start it with the 12v alternator and run with the I.C.E. Can't say the same for the Prius.

 

[computeerrgghh]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
toyota had the first full AND practical hybrid. hondas full hybrid was a tiny toy. their other ones are mild hybrids

It's not incredibly important the gas engine must come on during acceleration. The energy the gas engine put in will be recovered anyways.

It doesn't matter when the gas engine comes on, the point is it must do so sooner or later to make up for energy used by the electric motor.

not really because the whole point is the electric motor is more efficient at the lower speeds.

more efficient? Mind you the electric motor is one step removed from the original energy source, gasoline. Each step away from the original source is a loss in efficiency.

Dude do you know what you are talking about? The electic engine is supplied power from a BATTERY. Maybe you learned in chemistry about CHEMICAL REACTIONS? Well these reactions create the electricity needed to power the engine. There is your "mystery power source" and your "laws of physics". A battery is near 90% efficient, meaning it will recharge. Not to mention that the inverter in the ELECTRIC engine helps to recharge the battery as well. Go back to studying your 6th grade physics.

 

[stnicralisk]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: NFS4
The point is, there is the potential for increased city mileage if the engine is off during around town cruising or stop and go traffic. That's why the Prius' city mileage is roughly 10 more than a Civic Hybrid.

Think about it. Your sitting in bumper to bumper traffic. One person in a Civic Hybrid, one person in a Prius. Civic cuts off its engine while your stopped. Traffic moves a little bit...Civic cuts its engine back on creeps forward 15 feet, stops, cuts off engine again. Pretty inefficient IMHO.

The Prius would just creep forward under its own electric power w/o any intervention from the gas motor at all.

Wouldn't really matter all that much to me as I live in an area where bumper to bumper traffic isn't THAT bad. But in some places (like CA), I can see where it might be beneficial.

There's no such thing as free energy. The electric motor creeping the car forward had to come from the gas engine anyways.

The batteries are charged when the engine is running. So if you're driving to work for ~15 - 20 minutes on gas/electric power at crusing speed, the batteries are charging. You hit traffic. You doddle around for another 20-25 minutes on battery power alone in bumper to bumper traffic. You break traffic and continue to work and batteries start charging again.

During that 20-25 minutes that you're pissing around in bumper to bumper traffic, the Prius would be running off battery power. A Civic would be alternating between gas engine on and gas engine off.

IIRC 2nd gen prius batteries get a charge from the heat generated by breaking as well.

 

[MaxFusion16]

Originally posted by: stnicralisk

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: NFS4
The point is, there is the potential for increased city mileage if the engine is off during around town cruising or stop and go traffic. That's why the Prius' city mileage is roughly 10 more than a Civic Hybrid.

Think about it. Your sitting in bumper to bumper traffic. One person in a Civic Hybrid, one person in a Prius. Civic cuts off its engine while your stopped. Traffic moves a little bit...Civic cuts its engine back on creeps forward 15 feet, stops, cuts off engine again. Pretty inefficient IMHO.

The Prius would just creep forward under its own electric power w/o any intervention from the gas motor at all.

Wouldn't really matter all that much to me as I live in an area where bumper to bumper traffic isn't THAT bad. But in some places (like CA), I can see where it might be beneficial.

There's no such thing as free energy. The electric motor creeping the car forward had to come from the gas engine anyways.

The batteries are charged when the engine is running. So if you're driving to work for ~15 - 20 minutes on gas/electric power at crusing speed, the batteries are charging. You hit traffic. You doddle around for another 20-25 minutes on battery power alone in bumper to bumper traffic. You break traffic and continue to work and batteries start charging again.

During that 20-25 minutes that you're pissing around in bumper to bumper traffic, the Prius would be running off battery power. A Civic would be alternating between gas engine on and gas engine off.

IIRC 2nd gen prius batteries get a charge from the heat generated by breaking as well.

not heat, it's regenerative braking, simply attaching the drive shaft to the electric motor to recharge the battery. This energy is taken away from the vehicle's forward motion, slowing down the car and stops with the assistance of brakes.