Toshiba is making a risky move in the HDDVD/Blu-ray war.

[Muadib]

Text

 

[ElFenix]

i really hope tosh wins this one

 

[ktehmok]

Takamine also said Sony could produce cheap machines without China's help. Sony, he said, plans to sell Blu-ray disc players for less than $1,000 next year. Toshiba made the same claim earlier this year.

A grand, for a DVD player? Are they on fvcking drugs?

Nobody cares about HD. Improve the content of the movies, not the quality of the video.

 

[acemcmac]

Originally posted by: ktehmok

Takamine also said Sony could produce cheap machines without China's help. Sony, he said, plans to sell Blu-ray disc players for less than $1,000 next year. Toshiba made the same claim earlier this year.

A grand, for a DVD player? Are they on fvcking drugs?

Nobody cares about HD. Improve the content of the movies, not the quality of the video.

No kidding. I also can't see consumers ready and eager to sign up for more content control.

 

[RU482]

Originally posted by: ktehmok
Nobody cares about HD. Improve the content of the movies, not the quality of the video.

]

yeah, and get rid of the damn required previews and menus

 

[kami]

Nobody cares about HD.

Speak for yourself...I had a 50" HDTV and a High def 720p projector and am dying for my HD content.

I hope HD-DVD wins the war....mostly because of the anti-consumer approach blu-ray is taking. With blu-ray, you aren't allowed to make any sort of copy for your own personal use. For example if you have a media server/HTPC to play all your stuff (like me) you are out of luck. Your only choice will be a set-top player that will cost a lot more than a drive for your PC. Blu-ray also contains numerous high-end protection schemes.

That's not to say HD-DVD doesn't have protection (it does), BUT it's much more consumer friendly and much more PC friendly. That's probably why Microsoft is supporting it.

Blu-ray has theoretically more storage, but at launch it won't. Right now the cost of making 50GB dual layer discs is astronomical. So for the first few years Blu-ray would end up being exclusively 25GB single layer....yes, YEARS.

HD-DVD on the other hand, will have up to 30GB storage at launch for a much lower cost. 30GB is more than enough for HD video....you can have 1080p video on it with the more advanced codecs such as H.264 or VC-1. With these codecs you can have flawless high definition video with 10-15Mbps video bitrates...this isn't MPEG-2 where you need 25Mbps to get good quality HD. Long movies like LOTR Extended editions (4 hours) will fit on one dual layer disc easily, with optimal bitrate, PLUS room for extras on the same disc.. What else do you need?

This will be the very last physical format. After this, it will all be electronically delivered.

 

[Reckoner]

Blu-Ray has pretty much already won the war. Hell, even HD-DVD advocates are saying the same.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: redly1

Originally posted by: ktehmok
Nobody cares about HD. Improve the content of the movies, not the quality of the video.

]

yeah, and get rid of the damn required previews and menus

yeah that was fscking annoying, i bought a movie and had to sit through 6 advertisements.

 

[0roo0roo]

yea we care about hd. we just don't care for draconian copy protection and format wars. so far it looks like they haven't learned from sacd/dvda

if they do screw us in the end, hopefully those chinese factories put out drm free players and the movies to match. i'll pay for em without a shred of guilt. toshiba seems to be moving in the right direction. i used to be for bluray, but sony as usual killed my enthusiasm. havent they learned...do right by ur customerand most will gladly pay. sh*t on em and sh*t u get back.

 

[dexvx]

Wow... $1000 for a Blu-Ray player?

Isnt the PS3 supposed to be a Blu-Ray player? Doesnt that mean someone is going to lose massive amounts of money selling those things?

 

[FeuerFrei]

Originally posted by: ktehmok

Takamine also said Sony could produce cheap machines without China's help. Sony, he said, plans to sell Blu-ray disc players for less than $1,000 next year. Toshiba made the same claim earlier this year.

A grand, for a DVD player? Are they on fvcking drugs?

Nobody cares about HD. Improve the content of the movies, not the quality of the video.

Well considering the players used to sell for $3000, that's relatively inexpensive. However, they'll have to drop the price a bit more if they want any significant market share.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Originally posted by: kami
I hope HD-DVD wins the war....mostly because of the anti-consumer approach blu-ray is taking. With blu-ray, you aren't allowed to make any sort of copy for your own personal use. For example if you have a media server/HTPC to play all your stuff (like me) you are out of luck. Your only choice will be a set-top player that will cost a lot more than a drive for your PC. Blu-ray also contains numerous high-end protection schemes.

First off, both systems use AACS as the primary protection system. The question is still up in the air about whether Blu-ray will require managed copy for all movies. Currently the policy is, "it's up to the content providers." So in theory, managed copy might work with some movies, but not others.

That's not to say HD-DVD doesn't have protection (it does), BUT it's much more consumer friendly and much more PC friendly. That's probably why Microsoft is supporting it.

Really, what do you know about AACS and how it will be implemented? What do you know about the interface and ease of use for the consumer?

Blu-ray has theoretically more storage, but at launch it won't. Right now the cost of making 50GB dual layer discs is astronomical. So for the first few years Blu-ray would end up being exclusively 25GB single layer....yes, YEARS.

I am quite aware that Blu-ray will launch with 25GB, but I think only Blu-ray members and disc replicators know when dual-layered discs will launch (most likely by end of 2006). And it will come out eventually. Would you rather be stuck with 30GB or 50 for 8-10 years before it is succeeded by a new format?

Video over IP has been the holy grail for providers for some time. Broadband is only now getting enough penetration to allow less-than DVD quality videos to be streamed directly to end users. With HD video you've just doubled (at least!) the bitrate for a movie at equivalent quality to a physical disc like HDDVD and Blu-ray. When do you expect 15 mbps broadband to be available to the masses?

HD-DVD on the other hand, will have up to 30GB storage at launch for a much lower cost. 30GB is more than enough for HD video....you can have 1080p video on it with the more advanced codecs such as H.264 or VC-1. With these codecs you can have flawless high definition video with 10-15Mbps video bitrates...this isn't MPEG-2 where you need 25Mbps to get good quality HD. Long movies like LOTR Extended editions (4 hours) will fit on one dual layer disc easily, with optimal bitrate, PLUS room for extras on the same disc.. What else do you need?

When is enough ever enough? Much lower cost to replicators maybe, but replication costs are only fraction of the average selling price of any movie. A $20 movie might cost Warner Brothers <$2 to manufacture the disc and put it in a shiny package. I find it incredibly short-sighted to even consider replication costs as a reason to support HD-DVD. VHS was a new expensive format. DVD was a new expensive format. CD was a new expensive format. They all came down in price and are now sold in Wal-mart for a song. What in the history of the electronics industry would lead you to believe that Blu-ray will somehow buck this trend? Prices will come down in price as volume ramps up, and please keep in mind that Blu-ray media will be manufactured by the millions for PS3 games that come out in 2006.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: dexvx
Wow... $1000 for a Blu-Ray player?

Isnt the PS3 supposed to be a Blu-Ray player? Doesnt that mean someone is going to lose massive amounts of money selling those things?

Yep. But that's fine with Sony. In the long run, if they can get Blu-Ray to be the defacto winner against HD-DVD then they will be raking in alot of money from their cut of Blu-Ray.

The PS3 is nothing more than a trojan horse to get Blu-Ray into millions of homes so it can win the next gen format war.

 

[IGBT]

..agree. Most joe 6 pak movie renters/buyers think video quality is just fine. I think the industry wants it to enhance copy protection more then anything else..all under the guise of high def.

 

[rh71]

heh let me know when the players drop to ~$100 and I'll care more.

 

[dexvx]

Originally posted by: KnightBreed
First off, both systems use AACS as the primary protection system. The question is still up in the air about whether Blu-ray will require managed copy for all movies. Currently the policy is, "it's up to the content providers." So in theory, managed copy might work with some movies, but not others.

The de-facto standard for Blu-Ray is no copies. If you think studios are going to go out of their way so you can "backup" copies, then you're very well mistaken. Just look at Sony's awesome track record of DRM.

Originally posted by: KnightBreed
I am quite aware that Blu-ray will launch with 25GB, but I think only Blu-ray members and disc replicators know when dual-layered discs will launch (most likely by end of 2006). And it will come out eventually. Would you rather be stuck with 30GB or 50 for 8-10 years before it is succeeded by a new format?

There's no mention when the 50GB discs will be launched. 8-10 years down the line, we might even have HD DVD-2 with 100GB of space thats backwards compatible with everything like HD DVD is right now. It only matters in the near (say 2-3 years future), and in the near future, Blu-Ray's 50GB discs aren't even on the radar in terms of production and usability.

In any event, Microsoft has more than enough time to come up with an HD-DVD based Xbox360 by the time the PS3 launches.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Originally posted by: dexvx
The de-facto standard for Blu-Ray is no copies. If you think studios are going to go out of their way so you can "backup" copies, then you're very well mistaken. Just look at Sony's awesome track record of DRM.

No, the de-facto standard is that it's up to the content providers to allow or disallow copies to be made of their movies. That means some movies might allow copies, while others might not.

By the way, I suggest you re-read Russinovich's article about Sony's DRM system. The protection system on the music CD allowed 3 (three!) backup copies, so obviously Sony isn't against the concept of managed copies. The problem was in their implementation.

There's no mention when the 50GB discs will be launched. 8-10 years down the line, we might even have HD DVD-2 with 100GB of space thats backwards compatible with everything like HD DVD is right now. It only matters in the near (say 2-3 years future), and in the near future, Blu-Ray's 50GB discs aren't even on the radar in terms of production and usability.

In any event, Microsoft has more than enough time to come up with an HD-DVD based Xbox360 by the time the PS3 launches.

I don't expect Blu-ray and HD DVD to be the end of optical discs. Of course there will be a standard that comes out later, but do you feel like being stuck with the lesser capacity until that happens?

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: dexvx
In any event, Microsoft has more than enough time to come up with an HD-DVD based Xbox360 by the time the PS3 launches.

I sincerely doubt that MS will launch with an HD-DVD based Xbox360. It would split the hardware base and increase the costs of the 360. They may do an accessory of some kind but I don't think we'll ever see any games on HD-DVD discs for the Xbox360.

/pocket game analyst

 

[gotsmack]

the format war is over. HD DVD is going to take it. No one is going to buy blue ray when the Chinese flood the market with cheap HD DVD players and disks.

Blue ray is going to be a niche product and go the way of laser disk.