Torture

[Orsorum]

Inspired by this article and this thread.

At what point does torture become acceptable as a tool of national security? Conversely, at what point does torture cease to become a tool to save lives and merely an every day tool of law enforcement?

 

[rudder]

I had a former FBI agent as a professor. He confided that once they had someone who had kidnapped and hid a little girl and they had to find her. They abused the guy to some extent until they could extract the information. I cannot verify that this happened because no details were involved. I cna say if I were in his shoes I would have done the same thing to save the little girls life.

Torture is used by people like saddam as a tool to create fear and stay in power and break the will of his politcal enemies. I know in my heart both cases of torture are wrong, but you can maybe see where the two instances have different underlying reasons.

 

[GTaudiophile]

What's wrong with causing one person a lot of pain to save a few thousand, if not a few hundred thousand?

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
-Spock

 

[0roo0roo]

isn't that essentially communism?

 

[compudog]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
What's wrong with causing one person a lot of pain to save a few thousand, if not a few hundred thousand? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. -Spock

"...or the one. Jim, I am, and always will be... your friend...."

 

[Hammer]

well torture should never be used as a element of everyday law enforcement, but i think in special cases of national security its perfectly acceptable. particularly with terrorism.

 

[Renob]

well torture should never be used as a element of everyday law enforcement, but i think in special cases of national security its perfectly acceptable. particularly with terrorism.


I agree.

 

[xirtam]

I think torture's a pretty common tool. I think it's used in everyday law enforcement on some level. The more severe the crime, the more severe the torture.

 

[brxndxn]

Torture is terrible.. I think there should be more development in 'truth syrum' kind of things.


When is the line drawn between torture and punishment? I had to spend a night in jail once (not a DUI) and they gave me three small (2ft by 2ft) rags to sleep with. It was freezing cold in there (about 65 degrees). The bed was steel and too small for me to fit in. The edges of the steel were turned upward so that laying over them was impossible. I could not sleep in that bed for a night. The other people in there that were taller (over 5' 10") all said they couldn't sleep because their heads were pressed up against the steel supports. I would've killed myself if I didn't know I would be getting out the next day. Was that torture?

 

[ThePresence]

Torture is not a reliable way to extract information. People will say anything to get it to stop.

 

[MaxDSP]

Originally posted by: brxndxn
Torture is terrible.. I think there should be more development in 'truth syrum' kind of things.


When is the line drawn between torture and punishment? I had to spend a night in jail once (not a DUI) and they gave me three small (2ft by 2ft) rags to sleep with. It was freezing cold in there (about 65 degrees). The bed was steel and too small for me to fit in. The edges of the steel were turned upward so that laying over them was impossible. I could not sleep in that bed for a night. The other people in there that were taller (over 5' 10") all said they couldn't sleep because their heads were pressed up against the steel supports. I would've killed myself if I didn't know I would be getting out the next day. Was that torture?

no

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Torture is not a reliable way to extract information. People will say anything to get it to stop.

The Russians, Bulgarians, Jordanians, Egyptians and others would disagree with you. The Russians in particular took it to another level so to speak. They had/have several institutes that specialized in teaching interrogation techniques. Torture was/is an integral part of the curriculum. They exported that "technology" quite extensively. There is a reason we are not bringing captured high ranking Al Queda to this country. They are being interrogated elsewhere, that interrogation probably includes torture and we are allowing it because it is effective. We seem to think this relieves us of the legal, moral and ethical aspects of torture. It does not.


The OP question was/is about torture. When should you allow it? I posted a hypothetical on another board about a kidnapped girl with a limited amount of time to live (diabetes) and a known abductor. Do you torture him to save the girl even if you know for sure he took her? Do we put a system in place where you can obtain a "torture warrant"? In the case of captured POW's or "enemy combatants" who gets to decide who is important enough to torture and who isn't? Of course, when you go down this road guess how much you get to bitch when your captured servicemen are tortured. I am not one who usually invokes the "slippery slope" argument but in this particular matter where the entering argument is to abuse someone, the slope seems rather steep and the footing near the edge on the high ground looks rather treacherous.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

The Russians, Bulgarians, Jordanians, Egyptians and others would disagree with you. The Russians in particular took it to another level so to speak. They had/have several institutes that specialized in teaching interrogation techniques. Torture was/is an integral part of the curriculum. They exported that "technology" quite extensively. There is a reason we are not bringing captured high ranking Al Queda to this country. They are being interrogated elsewhere, that interrogation probably includes torture and we are allowing it because it is effective. We seem to think this relieves us of the legal, moral and ethical aspects of torture. It does not.

I think those countries use it more as a means to terrify their citizens into submisson than as a an effective means of extracting information. I may be wrong on that. I do, however, want proof that the US is employing it as a means of interrogation before I go around accusing.

The OP question was/is about torture. When should you allow it? I posted a hypothetical on another board about a kidnapped girl with a limited amount of time to live (diabetes) and a known abductor. Do you torture him to save the girl even if you know for sure he took her? Do we put a system in place where you can obtain a "torture warrant"? In the case of captured POW's or "enemy combatants" who gets to decide who is important enough to torture and who isn't? Of course, when you go down this road guess how much you get to bitch when your captured servicemen are tortured. I am not one who usually invokes the "slippery slope" argument but in this particular matter where the entering argument is to abuse someone, the slope seems rather steep and the footing near the edge on the high ground looks rather treacherous.

I agree with you here. It is definitely a slippery slope.

 

[Rainsford]

It is a fine line between when it would be "ok" and when it wouldn't. The problem is that if it becomes a tool to be used, it is up to the judgement of those in power when it is needed and when it isn't. And if those in power are like Saddam, well, that could be a bit of a problem. In an ideal world, those in power would only use it when there are no other options. But in an ideal world, there would be no need of it in the first place.

But if a little girl's life was at stake, I wouldn't hesitate. Even if it cost me my job, I'd do whatever it took to find her. If I was that FBI agent, I would have done the same thing. And I can be pretty creative when the situation calls for it.

 

[UltraQuiet]

I think those countries use it more as a means to terrify their citizens into submisson than as a an effective means of extracting information. I may be wrong on that. I do, however, want proof that the US is employing it as a means of interrogation before I go around accusing.

Not an offering of proof but...... Torture?. Other news sources have carried this as well.

 

[FeathersMcGraw]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
What's wrong with causing one person a lot of pain to save a few thousand, if not a few hundred thousand?

Deciding who gets to ask, and answer that question.

 

[dighn]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Torture is not a reliable way to extract information. People will say anything to get it to stop.

I agree. It would be "reliable" if you are sure you got the right guy to begin with, but if you have an innocent person... that's horrible. Definitely should not be standard practice.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: FeathersMcGraw

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
What's wrong with causing one person a lot of pain to save a few thousand, if not a few hundred thousand?

Deciding who gets to ask, and answer that question.

Ditto.

 

Why did you only link to the 4th page?

 

[Beattie]

A famous essay on torture

 

[jahawkin]

Torture is never acceptable.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: SammySon
Why did you only link to the 4th page?

That was my mistake... I meant to link it to the first page, but I apparently forgot to switch back to the first page when I copied the link.

 

[Orsorum]

How can we tell 300, or 100, or 10 people who never asked to be put in danger, "I'm sorry you'll have to die in agony, we just couldn't bring ourselves to . . . "

Oh, the irony.

a line demarcating the legitimate use of torture can be drawn. Torture only the obviously guilty, and only for the sake of saving innocents, and the line between "US" and "THEM" will remain clear.

I would like to see him detail that line of demarcation and detail the checks and balances involved.

 

[OS]

ugh, I don't want to sound like I condone torture, but I can't help and wonder once word gets out that the US is willing to get its' hands dirty, that maybe terrorists will think twice about plotting against the US.

During the 90s, the US got this image of being a soft world superpower and terrorist became bolder and bolder with their attacks on US embassies and ships, and the US didn't do a whole lot in reaction. Next thing we know, terrorists were flying airplanes into civilian buildings.

It's pretty clear now that several of the captured terrorists are being tortured and even their families are being dragged in. Outsiders might start thinking twice about getting themselves and their families involved.

Unfortunately, fear is a form of respect.

 

[yoda291]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Torture is not a reliable way to extract information. People will say anything to get it to stop.

what if you continue the torture until your information is verified? IE, they find the kidnapped child.