Torn in making a career decision - 8/6 Update

[SunnyD]

Update (8/6/08):
Well, here's an interesting turn of events. I sent an email asking for them to clarify certain things (benefits, relocation, stock options, etc.) that Sunday requesting that I needed that information before I could make a decision. About two weeks passed and no response. With that, I figured the opportunity was gone and I crafted up a formal email (hah! formal email - that's an oxymoron) declining the opportunity, which also elicited no response...

And today the phone rings. Of course I'm at work, so my wife takes the call and then calls me with the message that the CEO of the company would like to talk to me and to call back ASAP. So I get home, and give a call back... which ended up getting directed to the CTO. After speaking with him, cutting to the chase they want my help to write up some simple code. ??? In the context of a contractor? What? Of course nothing formal.

So, with that said... it proves to me that they haven't hired anybody yet. Of course my question is what angle is this? My main assumption is that either nobody wants to take the craptastic offer they are giving, or they're trying to see if I'd be willing to work off the books or at the very least so they can save on benefits by using me as a contractor. The conversation was especially brief, and there was no mention of any compensation for this little project either. Of course I made no commitment to actually do anything for them either.

---

Here's the situation, since no one ever reads these things, I'll just go into cliffs mode.

1. Started exploring new job opportunities in my career recently (Software dev)
2. Getting a good amount of interest at a level I didn't expect (Sr. Dev)
3. Interviewed with a few places, have a few more coming, surprised with the salary ranges (no firm offers yet, generally 50% more than what I currently make)
4. Came across an interesting listing on Monster, sent my resume, got a reply asking for a phone interview the next day.
5. Things went well, very well, but it's for a brand new startup which isn't going to offer more than what I make now, and wants to move quickly.

Basically, I'm torn between moving on the startup, or waiting for an established company that's going to offer me a better salary. I've been struggling to make it financially for the last 10 years between student loans, car payments, family and rent. I want to do the right thing. I'm at a point now where I do a little better than breaking even. A stable 50% better salary now basically wipes all my debt within the next two years, and makes life more comfortable. The startup doesn't quite offer that out of the box, but in a couple years, if it goes well in a couple years I could be far better off than just a 50% raise.

Yes, I know it's my decision to make. But this is a damn hard one. This would be a big move for my career if it works out. But I don't know if it's a safe bet to risk it.

 

[Jumpem]

I prefer very large well known corporations.

 

[SpunkyJones]

Take the 50% pay raise, start ups are tough, and the risk is high. I've worked at a couple of start ups and am thinking about moving on to another, but I'm a glutton for punishment.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I have always preferred working for start-ups. I've always felt pigeoned holed working for larger companies compared to the wide open opportunity at a start-up to get involved with pretty much anything you want.

Something you really need to analyze though for a start-up is the product/service and mgmt team is something you believe can be successful.

 

[ArJuN]

How do you feel about the new company and their plans? Did you ask them questions about their future?

 

[Bignate603]

I'd check out the start up seriously. Make sure you understand their business plan, how they plan to grow, and how you will be compensated. Stock in a startup that has a good chance of succeeding might pay off much more than the extra pay. And working for them will probably be more rewarding. However, if you're in a financially tight spot, you may just need to go with the sure thing. Your call, but make sure you know all the information before you jump.

 

[Descartes]

If you want to make it anywhere in software, take the start-up.

Software rewards people with experience, and the quality of that experience ultimately dictates your value. The experience you'll gain at a start-up, the good and the bad, is going to be something you simply cannot get at a larger, "stable" company. People that humdrum along for a decade in larger companies, performing the same tasks by rote, etc. don't get rewarded. There's an artificial ceiling on people that take this path, but for others the sky is literally the limit. There are tremendous opportunities for those that don't take the traditional path.

To be fair, I would have to know more about this start-up. I'm assuming that the start-up has some relevance in technology, and that you'll be able to gain a more diverse set of responsibilities that will benefit you later on.

[edit]I think I jumped the gun in my response. Looks like you've been in the industry for a while, sorry. I still think you should strongly consider the start-up, or at least another opportunity comparable to that one in terms of the quality of experience.[/edit]

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
I have always preferred working for start-ups. I've always felt pigeoned holed working for larger companies compared to the wide open opportunity at a start-up to get involved with pretty much anything you want.

Something you really need to analyze though for a start-up is the product/service and mgmt team is something you believe can be successful.

+1

 

[duragezic]

So the only firm offer so far is from the startup, and it's not nearly the 50% raise you would get from the other places you interviewed with? You said the startup wants to move fast, but I'd tell them you need a little time (wait for possible offers from other places you interviewed with). If they won't wait, I'd maybe just say forget them. If none of the others pan out, interview with a few more and offers will come. It sounds like a software developer with some experience should have no problem finding a better paying job. Since it sounds like your main issue with your current job is the salary, I'd make the move worth it and get that ~50% raise that you can. Moreover, it sounds like you need some more money now, which is more likely to happen with a larger, established company.

Also, what about using a new offer with your current company to get a large raise?

Finally, come down to the Binghamton area. There are two major defense contractors in the area. I'd suggest the better of the two, the one whose name doesn't start with a 'L'.

 

[robphelan]

what kind of s/w?

 

[robphelan]

i get very leery of comps wanting to "move fast" - you're making a BIG decision here... if they can't wait a few days for you to decide, they don't have an appreciation of your position.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: Descartes
If you want to make it anywhere in software, take the start-up.

Software rewards people with experience, and the quality of that experience ultimately dictates your value. The experience you'll gain at a start-up, the good and the bad, is going to be something you simply cannot get at a larger, "stable" company. People that humdrum along for a decade in larger companies, performing the same tasks by rote, etc. don't get rewarded. There's an artificial ceiling on people that take this path, but for others the sky is literally the limit. There are tremendous opportunities for those that don't take the traditional path.

To be fair, I would have to know more about this start-up. I'm assuming that the start-up has some relevance in technology, and that you'll be able to gain a more diverse set of responsibilities that will benefit you later on.

That's basically it.

Few tips:
1. Let their big idea sink in. The people you interview with have pitched the business many times, have funding, etc. and so they know how to get you excited and increase your heart rate. Give it a week or two and think about it - go and have lunch with the people you'll be working with if you need to.

2. How much do you care about the business? If you are on the team of people who have potentially found a way to cure certain types of cancer, is it something you will fight till the end for, or is it just something you're doing for a paycheck? If it's a paycheck, odds are, a large corporation will be better off.

3. As said before, look at the people behind it, what have they done in the past? Are they people working to do things 10x better or just marginal improvements?

Think of this as a huge investment, in a single stock or commodity. Any investor you go to will say that it doesn't make sense, but at start-ups, that's what it is. Your time, effort, and economically lost salaries are invested. The stock options will hopefully make it worth it, especially if you're boarding a rocket ship. (I like that saying )

Overall, start-ups are exciting, great place to be and the people you work with will possibly be some of the best people to work with. They're very logical, politics do not exist, and if you know how to do something better than it is now, you have room to make it happen. In the end, you work with everyone, not for them. I'm obviously describing a start-up at its core, and so if this has grown a political system and you work for someone there, that's not what I consider a start-up. It's unfortunate when it happens, but you just have to avoid them.

While it is a big decision, follow what you think is right. Keep things as clear as possible, otherwise the details can drown you forever.

 

[dmcowen674]

Guys offered great advice already on going for the 50% raise.

It's just a shame that the only way to get a raise this day and age is by changing jobs.

 

[Jumpem]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Guys offered great advice already on going for the 50% raise.

It's just a shame that the only way to get a raise this day and age is by changing jobs.

Not necessarily. My raises have totalled 40% in the last three years.

 

[JDub02]

Depends on what your situation is ... sounds like you're at a place where having a nice steady income with some job security is a good thing. I'd stick with the bigger companies.

Unless you're really set on the startup and your family will back you up if things go in the crapper.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Guys offered great advice already on going for the 50% raise.

It's just a shame that the only way to get a raise this day and age is by changing jobs.

frustrates me to no end. worst part is, they wont give me what i want, so i leave to get what i want, then they hire someone to do my job and pay them what i wanted.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Jumpem

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Guys offered great advice already on going for the 50% raise.

It's just a shame that the only way to get a raise this day and age is by changing jobs.

Not necessarily. My raises have totalled 40% in the last three years.

That is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Leros]

The start up gives you the same wage you have now and might go places. You know you're worth more and can get a job later if the startup fails. So, if you think the startup can go places, then I would give it a shot.

 

[Q]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
I have always preferred working for start-ups. I've always felt pigeoned holed working for larger companies compared to the wide open opportunity at a start-up to get involved with pretty much anything you want.

Something you really need to analyze though for a start-up is the product/service and mgmt team is something you believe can be successful.

+1

Hah, +1 for your own thread

 

[Finalnight]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Here's the situation, since no one ever reads these things, I'll just go into cliffs mode.

1. Started exploring new job opportunities in my career recently (Software dev)
2. Getting a good amount of interest at a level I didn't expect (Sr. Dev)
3. Interviewed with a few places, have a few more coming, surprised with the salary ranges (no firm offers yet, generally 50% more than what I currently make)
4. Came across an interesting listing on Monster, sent my resume, got a reply asking for a phone interview the next day.
5. Things went well, very well, but it's for a brand new startup which isn't going to offer more than what I make now, and wants to move quickly.

Basically, I'm torn between moving on the startup, or waiting for an established company that's going to offer me a better salary. I've been struggling to make it financially for the last 10 years between student loans, car payments, family and rent. I want to do the right thing. I'm at a point now where I do a little better than breaking even. A stable 50% better salary now basically wipes all my debt within the next two years, and makes life more comfortable. The startup doesn't quite offer that out of the box, but in a couple years, if it goes well in a couple years I could be far better off than just a 50% raise.

Yes, I know it's my decision to make. But this is a damn hard one. This would be a big move for my career if it works out. But I don't know if it's a safe bet to risk it.

Only go with startup if you are relatively sure of their success and they will be issuing you stock in addition to your cash compensation.

 

[Gibson486]

I used to work for a start up. It's so much better than a big corporate enviorment IF you have the work ethic.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: Finalnight

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Here's the situation, since no one ever reads these things, I'll just go into cliffs mode.

1. Started exploring new job opportunities in my career recently (Software dev)
2. Getting a good amount of interest at a level I didn't expect (Sr. Dev)
3. Interviewed with a few places, have a few more coming, surprised with the salary ranges (no firm offers yet, generally 50% more than what I currently make)
4. Came across an interesting listing on Monster, sent my resume, got a reply asking for a phone interview the next day.
5. Things went well, very well, but it's for a brand new startup which isn't going to offer more than what I make now, and wants to move quickly.

Basically, I'm torn between moving on the startup, or waiting for an established company that's going to offer me a better salary. I've been struggling to make it financially for the last 10 years between student loans, car payments, family and rent. I want to do the right thing. I'm at a point now where I do a little better than breaking even. A stable 50% better salary now basically wipes all my debt within the next two years, and makes life more comfortable. The startup doesn't quite offer that out of the box, but in a couple years, if it goes well in a couple years I could be far better off than just a 50% raise.

Yes, I know it's my decision to make. But this is a damn hard one. This would be a big move for my career if it works out. But I don't know if it's a safe bet to risk it.

Only go with startup if you are relatively sure of their success and they will be issuing you stock in addition to your cash compensation.

Once you get to the stage when you know for a fact that a start up will succeed, it is no longer a start up and you joined too late.

 

[SunnyD]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I'll try to clarify a few of the pertinent point in this post.

Originally posted by: Bignate603
I'd check out the start up seriously. Make sure you understand their business plan, how they plan to grow, and how you will be compensated. Stock in a startup that has a good chance of succeeding might pay off much more than the extra pay. And working for them will probably be more rewarding. However, if you're in a financially tight spot, you may just need to go with the sure thing. Your call, but make sure you know all the information before you jump.

Financially, I'm at a point where I'm slightly ahead of breakeven when it comes to daily finances. Rent, groceries, car payment, student loans, etc, I'm able to sock away a few dollars (literally) into the savings account while watching my finances fairly carefully. Money is money when you have a family. I wish it could be 100% about the experience, but it just can't be.

Originally posted by: Descartes
If you want to make it anywhere in software, take the start-up.

...

To be fair, I would have to know more about this start-up. I'm assuming that the start-up has some relevance in technology, and that you'll be able to gain a more diverse set of responsibilities that will benefit you later on.

They're a software startup that with their product is targetting automated materials handling. There is a ton of potential in the market, it works with robotics and automation, the core of what they're working with they either own or exclusively license the patents. They have a lot going for them if they can make this work.

I would "love" to make it in software. I do have a good deal of experience, but most is dated, and one of the things I look for in a job is the ability to grow in experience. I wish it wasn't all about money all the time.

Originally posted by: duragezic
So the only firm offer so far is from the startup, and it's not nearly the 50% raise you would get from the other places you interviewed with? You said the startup wants to move fast, but I'd tell them you need a little time (wait for possible offers from other places you interviewed with). If they won't wait, I'd maybe just say forget them. If none of the others pan out, interview with a few more and offers will come. It sounds like a software developer with some experience should have no problem finding a better paying job. Since it sounds like your main issue with your current job is the salary, I'd make the move worth it and get that ~50% raise that you can. Moreover, it sounds like you need some more money now, which is more likely to happen with a larger, established company.

Also, what about using a new offer with your current company to get a large raise?

Finally, come down to the Binghamton area. There are two major defense contractors in the area. I'd suggest the better of the two, the one whose name doesn't start with a 'L'.

Pretty much. The startup is no raise compared to my current job. Same salary. Not sure on the benefits because they haven't even gotten that far yet. More money would make life much easier, but as I said, I'm pretty much breaking even on what I make now.

Using an offer as leverage at my current job - as much as I like the company I work for currently, I know I'm not going to get far in here. They also likely won't give me the kind of money I would find elsewhere, and the benefits frankly suck.

And directly to your comment about coming to Binghamton... yeah, no thanks. Besides, I'm already waiting on an offer from the one that starts with 'B', except from their office up in Rome. I could be waiting for the next 6 months (I have a friend that works there, they take forever and a day!). Honestly, I'm really looking to leave NY (again). This state sucks.

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
That's basically it.

Few tips:
1. Let their big idea sink in. The people you interview with have pitched the business many times, have funding, etc. and so they know how to get you excited and increase your heart rate. Give it a week or two and think about it - go and have lunch with the people you'll be working with if you need to.

2. How much do you care about the business? If you are on the team of people who have potentially found a way to cure certain types of cancer, is it something you will fight till the end for, or is it just something you're doing for a paycheck? If it's a paycheck, odds are, a large corporation will be better off.

3. As said before, look at the people behind it, what have they done in the past? Are they people working to do things 10x better or just marginal improvements?

Think of this as a huge investment, in a single stock or commodity. Any investor you go to will say that it doesn't make sense, but at start-ups, that's what it is. Your time, effort, and economically lost salaries are invested. The stock options will hopefully make it worth it, especially if you're boarding a rocket ship. (I like that saying )

Overall, start-ups are exciting, great place to be and the people you work with will possibly be some of the best people to work with. They're very logical, politics do not exist, and if you know how to do something better than it is now, you have room to make it happen. In the end, you work with everyone, not for them. I'm obviously describing a start-up at its core, and so if this has grown a political system and you work for someone there, that's not what I consider a start-up. It's unfortunate when it happens, but you just have to avoid them.

While it is a big decision, follow what you think is right. Keep things as clear as possible, otherwise the details can drown you forever.

Great points. #1 - yeah, I felt as though I sat through a sales pitch yesterday. I've talked to the CEO and CTO (brothers) over the last two days. I have a fairly firm understanding of where they want to go. It will definitely challenge me as a dev, and it's a great opportunity I think. But right now pretty much anywhere I go will be a better opportunity than what I have.

#2 - Honestly, the business isn't something I need to worry myself with. I'm more interested in what I do rather than what the company does as a whole. I love learning all things software, and I think it would fit in good here. They have something they want to make into software, and I have a good set of the skills they want. I wouldn't consider myself a senior level dev, but most places I'm interviewing with seem to. That's where the problem comes in, do I risk waiting out the dividends that will pay big, or do I go for the fat paycheck now. I can find aspects of every business that I will enjoy.

#3 - Hmm, good questions. The CTO is a professor at Vanderbilt taking a leave of absence to work on this. The CEO is his brother who appears to have a large background in dealing with funding, businesses, etc. As I said before, they've already secured the first round of funding. They have a large established company essentially endorsing this idea who will likely be the first customer as well if this works. They've obviously done their homework since they've secured investment funding already (which apparently isn't the easiest thing to do post-dot-com era). They're pioneering this advancement in materials handling/robotics as far as I can tell. It sounds like an adventure.

Originally posted by: Leros
The start up gives you the same wage you have now and might go places. You know you're worth more and can get a job later if the startup fails. So, if you think the startup can go places, then I would give it a shot.

Yeah, that's essentially what my gut says too. But the idea that if I do go with this, and skip out on the next few offers that come my way, only to have it fail... well then I just wasted a year or two of my family's time and made their lives harder because of it. That's the dilemma.

 

[StageLeft]

Wait, forget the startup.

Not necessarily. My raises have totalled 40% in the last three years.

Mine have totalled about 1% and then 1% (after the 20% I got from actually changing jobs). It's true that the best way to get more money in almost all cases is a change of job. I don't know why employers don't realize this, but it's hard to assess the value of an existing employee, so I suppose that's why.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Thanks for all the responses guys. I'll try to clarify a few of the pertinent point in this post.

Originally posted by: Bignate603
I'd check out the start up seriously. Make sure you understand their business plan, how they plan to grow, and how you will be compensated. Stock in a startup that has a good chance of succeeding might pay off much more than the extra pay. And working for them will probably be more rewarding. However, if you're in a financially tight spot, you may just need to go with the sure thing. Your call, but make sure you know all the information before you jump.

Financially, I'm at a point where I'm slightly ahead of breakeven when it comes to daily finances. Rent, groceries, car payment, student loans, etc, I'm able to sock away a few dollars (literally) into the savings account while watching my finances fairly carefully. Money is money when you have a family. I wish it could be 100% about the experience, but it just can't be.

Originally posted by: Descartes
If you want to make it anywhere in software, take the start-up.

...

To be fair, I would have to know more about this start-up. I'm assuming that the start-up has some relevance in technology, and that you'll be able to gain a more diverse set of responsibilities that will benefit you later on.

They're a software startup that with their product is targetting automated materials handling. There is a ton of potential in the market, it works with robotics and automation, the core of what they're working with they either own or exclusively license the patents. They have a lot going for them if they can make this work.

I would "love" to make it in software. I do have a good deal of experience, but most is dated, and one of the things I look for in a job is the ability to grow in experience. I wish it wasn't all about money all the time.

Originally posted by: duragezic
So the only firm offer so far is from the startup, and it's not nearly the 50% raise you would get from the other places you interviewed with? You said the startup wants to move fast, but I'd tell them you need a little time (wait for possible offers from other places you interviewed with). If they won't wait, I'd maybe just say forget them. If none of the others pan out, interview with a few more and offers will come. It sounds like a software developer with some experience should have no problem finding a better paying job. Since it sounds like your main issue with your current job is the salary, I'd make the move worth it and get that ~50% raise that you can. Moreover, it sounds like you need some more money now, which is more likely to happen with a larger, established company.

Also, what about using a new offer with your current company to get a large raise?

Finally, come down to the Binghamton area. There are two major defense contractors in the area. I'd suggest the better of the two, the one whose name doesn't start with a 'L'.

Pretty much. The startup is no raise compared to my current job. Same salary. Not sure on the benefits because they haven't even gotten that far yet. More money would make life much easier, but as I said, I'm pretty much breaking even on what I make now.

Using an offer as leverage at my current job - as much as I like the company I work for currently, I know I'm not going to get far in here. They also likely won't give me the kind of money I would find elsewhere, and the benefits frankly suck.

And directly to your comment about coming to Binghamton... yeah, no thanks. Besides, I'm already waiting on an offer from the one that starts with 'B', except from their office up in Rome. I could be waiting for the next 6 months (I have a friend that works there, they take forever and a day!). Honestly, I'm really looking to leave NY (again). This state sucks.

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
That's basically it.

Few tips:
1. Let their big idea sink in. The people you interview with have pitched the business many times, have funding, etc. and so they know how to get you excited and increase your heart rate. Give it a week or two and think about it - go and have lunch with the people you'll be working with if you need to.

2. How much do you care about the business? If you are on the team of people who have potentially found a way to cure certain types of cancer, is it something you will fight till the end for, or is it just something you're doing for a paycheck? If it's a paycheck, odds are, a large corporation will be better off.

3. As said before, look at the people behind it, what have they done in the past? Are they people working to do things 10x better or just marginal improvements?

Think of this as a huge investment, in a single stock or commodity. Any investor you go to will say that it doesn't make sense, but at start-ups, that's what it is. Your time, effort, and economically lost salaries are invested. The stock options will hopefully make it worth it, especially if you're boarding a rocket ship. (I like that saying )

Overall, start-ups are exciting, great place to be and the people you work with will possibly be some of the best people to work with. They're very logical, politics do not exist, and if you know how to do something better than it is now, you have room to make it happen. In the end, you work with everyone, not for them. I'm obviously describing a start-up at its core, and so if this has grown a political system and you work for someone there, that's not what I consider a start-up. It's unfortunate when it happens, but you just have to avoid them.

While it is a big decision, follow what you think is right. Keep things as clear as possible, otherwise the details can drown you forever.

Great points. #1 - yeah, I felt as though I sat through a sales pitch yesterday. I've talked to the CEO and CTO (brothers) over the last two days. I have a fairly firm understanding of where they want to go. It will definitely challenge me as a dev, and it's a great opportunity I think. But right now pretty much anywhere I go will be a better opportunity than what I have.

#2 - Honestly, the business isn't something I need to worry myself with. I'm more interested in what I do rather than what the company does as a whole. I love learning all things software, and I think it would fit in good here. They have something they want to make into software, and I have a good set of the skills they want. I wouldn't consider myself a senior level dev, but most places I'm interviewing with seem to. That's where the problem comes in, do I risk waiting out the dividends that will pay big, or do I go for the fat paycheck now. I can find aspects of every business that I will enjoy.

#3 - Hmm, good questions. The CTO is a professor at Vanderbilt taking a leave of absence to work on this. The CEO is his brother who appears to have a large background in dealing with funding, businesses, etc. As I said before, they've already secured the first round of funding. They have a large established company essentially endorsing this idea who will likely be the first customer as well if this works. They've obviously done their homework since they've secured investment funding already (which apparently isn't the easiest thing to do post-dot-com era). They're pioneering this advancement in materials handling/robotics as far as I can tell. It sounds like an adventure.

Originally posted by: Leros
The start up gives you the same wage you have now and might go places. You know you're worth more and can get a job later if the startup fails. So, if you think the startup can go places, then I would give it a shot.

Yeah, that's essentially what my gut says too. But the idea that if I do go with this, and skip out on the next few offers that come my way, only to have it fail... well then I just wasted a year or two of my family's time and made their lives harder because of it. That's the dilemma.

Yes, but you come out in a better position either way. In the start up....you might end up going as far to make managerial decisions. You will probably work much more closely to management and you can put on your resume that played a role in management. That is a huge step in your career progression.