Top 10 things you did not know about Gitmo

[ProfJohn]

From the Washington Post

10 Things to Know About Guantanamo

By Al Kamen

Friday, September 15, 2006; Page A17

The Pentagon successfully avoided being on David Letterman's Top Ten list for many years. So this week Secretary Donald Rumsfeld 's speechwriters tried to help, sending out "Ten Facts About Guantanamo" to highlight what a nice place it is.

The first fact notes that the inmates include some truly nasty terrorist trainers and bombmakers. The second says "More money is spent on meals for detainees than" on U.S. troops stationed there. "The average weight gain per detainee is 20 pounds."
"The Muslim call to prayer sounds five times a day," we are told, and arrows point "toward the holy city of Mecca."

The prisoners receive free medical, dental and psychiatric care, and in 2005 "there were 35 teeth cleanings." The other 400 or so housed there will have to wait awhile.

Fact No. 5 notes that the Red Cross visits "every few months" and that there's regular contact between the terrorism suspects and their families.

"Recreation activities include basketball, volleyball, soccer, ping-pong and board games," according to Fact No. 6. "High-top sneakers are provided."

We are told that upon release, everyone gets "a Koran, a jean jacket, a white T-shirt, a pair of blue jeans, high-top sneakers" ? a second pair ? "a gym bag of toiletries" (remember not to try to take the liquids onboard), and "a pillow and blanket for the flight home."

Fact No. 8, probably one of the most important, notes that, contrary to what you might have heard, the prisoners actually really want to be in Guantanamo. "The mother of a detainee stated: 'Of course they wanted to stay there. . . . They had human rights and good living standards there. They had dentists and good meals ? everything they wanted.' " Turns out, this quote from a March 2004 edition of the London Times was a Russian mother comparing Guantanamo with Russian jails.

There was "Arabic language TV," a large library with books in 13 languages. "The most requested book is 'Harry Potter,' " we're told.

And Fact No. 10. "In 2005, Amnesty International stated that 'the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay has become the gulag of our times.' "

This last fact was intended as a shot at Amnesty for comparing a veritable five-star hotel with the infamous Soviet labor camps. After all, the commies never gave away high-tops.

We're told some Pentagon folks balked at putting the list up on the Pentagon Web site, but an updated version ? minus the Russian mother quote ? is up there now at http://www.defenselink.mil/home/dodupdate .

Matt Latimer , director of the Pentagon writers group, who put together the list, said, "We welcome the chance to let people know there's more than one side to the story in Guantanamo." Latimer said, "We've gotten a lot of kudos from people who are glad we are at last . . . defending the facility."

DOD link to list
Washinton Post Article

Also check out this by Gen. Barry McCaffrey

This is a very tough situation for the superb, professional SOUTHCOM team at JTF Guantanamo. They are performing their duties with compassion, great discipline, and with considerable courage and personal sacrifice. We owe them a new, sensible legal and security framework provided by the three co-equal branches of the US Government.

These are very dangerous terrorists we have detained at Guantanamo. It will place the American people in great jeopardy if we do not logically create a sustainable environment for the continued detention of a small number of serious terrorists at Guantanamo in the coming decade.

His Report
My fav lines
"There is now zero physical or mental abuse of prisoners in this facility by either guard personnel or military intelligence interrogators."
"Environmental conditions clearly exceed those provied to U.S. Military personnel on garrison active duty."

Let the Leftwing carping begin

 

[miketheidiot]

of course the government has yet to prove in a court of law that any of these people actually belong there, and the fact that an open place of legal limbo exists openly is very disconcerting. The acknowledgement a few eeks ago of secret prisons was much more frightening, however.

 

[BrownTown]

Donald Rumsfeld has really earned my trust over the last few years, I wish I could live there.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
of course the government has yet to prove in a court of law that any of these people actually belong there, and the fact that an open place of legal limbo exists openly is very disconcerting. The acknowledgement a few eeks ago of secret prisons was much more frightening, however.

Did we have to prove in a court of law that German soldiers we captured during WW2 were in fact German soldiers before we put them in POW camps/jails?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
of course the government has yet to prove in a court of law that any of these people actually belong there, and the fact that an open place of legal limbo exists openly is very disconcerting. The acknowledgement a few eeks ago of secret prisons was much more frightening, however.

Did we have to prove in a court of law that German soldiers we captured during WW2 were in fact German soldiers before we put them in POW camps/jails?

The German Soldiers were captured by Americans or their Allies who were credible, not all Prisoners at Gitmo were captured by American Armed Forces and our Allies in Pakistan and Afghanistan aren't the most credible. While I'm sure that most of those in Gitmo did take up arms against us I'm not confident at all that all of them did. Of course if they weren't enemies of the Untied States before odds are they are now along with their relatives and friends.

 

[conjur]

Wow, saying Gitmo is better than a Gulag is supposed to be a *good* thing?

And, McCaffrey's report is from a visit from June 2006, more than two years after Hersh broke the Abu Ghraib story and word of the abuse and torture at Gitmo started getting out, too. Of course things have improved there. The military is even now saying they will outright reject some of Rumsfeld's suggestions of "interrogation". The Geneva Conventions are not "quaint" as the current AG said before he became such.

This thread is a complete red herring.


"The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience. We're talking about rape and murder -- and some very serious charges." - Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee.



http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/09/what_weve_lost.html

What We've Lost

15 Sep 2006 04:38 pm

A reserve soldier who fought in Iraq writes:

I was deployed in my reserve unit (USMCR) as part of operation Desert Storm and Desert Shield. Marine infantry, and we were on the front lines, supposedly to guard a gunship base, but really, though, the gunships guarded us.

Not too much later, it was time to take prisoners. One of the platoons went north, and when they came back, there were stories about how Iraqi soldiers lined the roads, trying to surrender. I spent a week guarding Iraqi men in a makeshift prison camp, a way-station really, and more than I could count. They didn't look like they were starving or dehydrated. Apparently, once the ground war began, they just pitched their weapons and headed south at first opportunity. The more I've thought about it, the more I realize that they knew bone deep that they'd get fair treatment. We gave them MREs (with the pork entree's removed) but almost immediately some Special Forces guys arrived and set up a real chow line for them. We gave each man a blanket, (I kept an extra as a souvie) and I think I saw a Special Forces doc giving some of them a once over.

Once, only once, one of them got all irritated and tried to get in one of the Corporal's faces, loud. (I was a lance-corporal). He wouldn't back down, so the Corporal gave him an adjustment, a rifle butt-stroke to his gut, not hard, but he went down. The Corporal sent me for the medic. The guy was ok, and now calm (or at least understanding the situation), and hand-signed that he was out of smokes and really, really needed one... Not a bad guy, just stressed-dumb and needing a smoke. None of the others prisoners in the camp even registered it.

We went north to mop up not long after that. I saw the Iraqi weapons: rocket launchers a little smaller than semi-trailers, hidden in buildings, AKs in piles, big Soviet mortars and anti-tank mines, everywhere but unarmed. They had food too. Pasteurized milk to drink, but most gone bad by then. Some of the mortar rounds were still in crates. They had long trenches that were hard to see in the dunes, bunkers with maps, fire-plans laid out, and blankets, all placed with decent vantage for command and control. They even had wire laid for land-line communications. The point is, they could have fought. Not won, no they couldn't have won, but they could have fought. Instead, they chose to surrender.

Looking back, I think that one of the main drivers in these men's heads was that they knew, absolutely, that they'd get fair treatment from us, the Americans. We were the good guys. The Iraqis on the line knew they had an out, they had hope, so they could just walk away. (A few did piss themselves when someone told them we were Marines. Go figure.) Still, they knew Americans would be fair, and we were.

Thinking hard on what I now know of history, psychology, and the meanness of politics, that reputation for fairness was damn near unique in world history. Can you tell me of any major military power that had it? Ever? France? No. Think Algeria. The UK? Sorry, Northern Ireland, the Boxer Rebellion in China... China or Russia. I don't think so. But America had it. If those men had even put up token resistance, some of us would not have come back. But they didn't even bother, and surrendered at least in part because of our reputation. Our two hundred year old reputation for being fair and humane and decent. All the way back to George Washington, and from President George H.W. Bush all the way down to a lance-corporal jarhead at the front.

Its gone now, even from me. I can't get past that image of the Iraqi, in the hood with the wires and I'm not what you'd call a sensitive type. You know the picture. And now we have a total bust-out in the White House, and a bunch of rubber-stamps in the House, trying to make it so that half-drowning people isn't torture. That hypothermia isn't torture. That degradation isn't torture. We don't have that reputation for fairness anymore. Just the opposite, I think. And the next real enemy we face will fight like only the cornered and desperate fight. How many Marines' lives will be lost in the war ahead just because of this asshole who never once risked anything for this country?

This president must never be forgiven for what he has done to the reputation of this country.

 

[umbrella39]

Yawn, the "new" P&N resident GOP knobfluffer thinks Gitmo is A OK :thumbsup: When do you ship off again?

As for your Signature, why not just use the one you had before they banned your last account here EBT?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Last time I checked, guests were not being severely beaten at "five-star hotels."

That list has to be one of the most disingenuous things I've read in months, yet someone purporting to be a professor seems to endorse its accuracy without question. Most of the things on the list are basic amenities that would be provided by nearly any prison in the western world.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by: DonVito
Last time I checked, guests were not being severely beaten at "five-star hotels."

Christ, that's so messed up :| Imagine what they do to people that don't know a codeword. Hasn't the military released a bunch of foreigners from Gitmo due to lack of evidence linking them to terrorism? Just imagine all the torture they have gone through for no reason except this government has taken too much power off the hands of people and uses it as if it was their godgiven right :|

 

[DealMonkey]

Who cares if the prisoners are eating filet mignon and bathing in golden tubs when they exist in a legal black hole with no rights and no path to any kind of a fair trial. But hey ProfJohn, strap on your Club Gitmo tee-shirt and we'll send you down there for an undetermined time and you can report back on conditions first-hand. How's that sound?

 

[techs]

How deluded are people to believe a DOD description of the conditions at Gitmo when time and time again it has been proven to be wrong and when the US won't let outside obervers verify the conditions there?
Talk about propaganda.

 

[Davan]

If conditions at gitmo have prevented one attack on American soil, or saved one American life, then I fully condone the methods used. You kids just cannot appreciate the sacrifices made. When youre older and a little more mature, youll realize that theres a difference between the ideal world and the world you have to live in.

 

[umbrella39]

When you grow up, you might be able to look further than your nose. What sacrifices have you made? When does your tour begin? When will you kids realize that when we abuse and kill detainees, it opens the doors ever wider for our GIs to enjoy the same fate. Unless you are one of the few and the proud, I think pehaps you should just stand in the corner and stop playing armchair General with others lives.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by: Davan
If conditions at gitmo have prevented one attack on American soil, or saved one American life, then I fully condone the methods used. You kids just cannot appreciate the sacrifices made. When youre older and a little more mature, youll realize that theres a difference between the ideal world and the world you have to live in.

How old are you? There're plenty of members on this forum that are probably twice your age, so don't bring your "age = wisdom" BS on to the table.

 

[Davan]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
When you grow up, you might be able to look further than your nose. What sacrifices have you made? When does your tour begin? When will you kids realize that when we abuse and kill detainees, it opens the doors ever wider for our GIs to enjoy the same fate. Unless you are one of the few and the proud, I think pehaps you should just stand in the corner and stop playing armchair General with others lives.

So are you saying that only men serving in the armed forces are allowed an opinion? Interesting. Maybe you should tell us about your time in the military before speaking so that we know you also have the right to an opinion on this matter.

Understanding and supporting the reasons behind what is necessary is hardly playing armchair General. Its more along the lines of supporting those who must do what is right, regardless of how unappreciative and thankless many of the Americans they continue to protect are to their efforcts. Yourself included apparently.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Davan
If conditions at gitmo have prevented one attack on American soil, or saved one American life, then I fully condone the methods used. You kids just cannot appreciate the sacrifices made. When youre older and a little more mature, youll realize that theres a difference between the ideal world and the world you have to live in.

So the ends justify the means, regardless, eh? How old are you to be so patronizing? What is the extent of your service to your country and community?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Davan
If conditions at gitmo have prevented one attack on American soil, or saved one American life, then I fully condone the methods used. You kids just cannot appreciate the sacrifices made. When youre older and a little more mature, youll realize that theres a difference between the ideal world and the world you have to live in.

Could you be any more condescending?! :roll: Regardless, you have no idea how old the rest of us are.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by: Davan

Originally posted by: umbrella39
When you grow up, you might be able to look further than your nose. What sacrifices have you made? When does your tour begin? When will you kids realize that when we abuse and kill detainees, it opens the doors ever wider for our GIs to enjoy the same fate. Unless you are one of the few and the proud, I think pehaps you should just stand in the corner and stop playing armchair General with others lives.

So are you saying that only men serving in the armed forces are allowed an opinion? Interesting. Maybe you should tell us about your time in the military before speaking so that we know you also have the right to an opinion on this matter.

Understanding and supporting the reasons behind what is necessary is hardly playing armchair General. Its more along the lines of supporting those who must do what is right, regardless of how unappreciative and thankless many of the Americans they continue to protect are to their efforcts. Yourself included apparently.

Tell me how exactly the abuse and torture in Gitmo is protecting the average Joe? Americans are appreciative of the military members. They appreciate and thank every US soldier. What Americans don't appreciate is the decisions this administration seems to pull out of their asses for their own benefit with the cover up of protecting America.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Davan
If conditions at gitmo have prevented one attack on American soil, or saved one American life, then I fully condone the methods used. You kids just cannot appreciate the sacrifices made. When youre older and a little more mature, youll realize that theres a difference between the ideal world and the world you have to live in.

Could you be any more condescending?! :roll: Regardless, you have no idea how old the rest of us are.

My ballpark sense is that he's 24-27. His comments are actually more embarrassing if he is in fact older than most of us.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Davan

So are you saying that only men serving in the armed forces are allowed an opinion? Interesting. Maybe you should tell us about your time in the military before speaking so that we know you also have the right to an opinion on this matter.

Understanding and supporting the reasons behind what is necessary is hardly playing armchair General. Its more along the lines of supporting those who must do what is right, regardless of how unappreciative and thankless many of the Americans they continue to protect are to their efforcts. Yourself included apparently.

Ah, this sounds like the familiar call of the pesky chickenhawk.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Davan
If conditions at gitmo have prevented one attack on American soil, or saved one American life, then I fully condone the methods used. You kids just cannot appreciate the sacrifices made. When youre older and a little more mature, youll realize that theres a difference between the ideal world and the world you have to live in.

And if your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Davan

Originally posted by: umbrella39
When you grow up, you might be able to look further than your nose. What sacrifices have you made? When does your tour begin? When will you kids realize that when we abuse and kill detainees, it opens the doors ever wider for our GIs to enjoy the same fate. Unless you are one of the few and the proud, I think pehaps you should just stand in the corner and stop playing armchair General with others lives.

So are you saying that only men serving in the armed forces are allowed an opinion? Interesting. Maybe you should tell us about your time in the military before speaking so that we know you also have the right to an opinion on this matter.

Understanding and supporting the reasons behind what is necessary is hardly playing armchair General. Its more along the lines of supporting those who must do what is right, regardless of how unappreciative and thankless many of the Americans they continue to protect are to their efforcts. Yourself included apparently.

But that's the point, you DON'T understand the reasons behind "what is necessary". You just blindly support whatever is done because it MIGHT be keeping you safer without making any attempt to judge whether or not it IS keeping you safe. I can at least respect people who can make a decent argument that our actions are effective, if not totally ethical, but people who argue that we should keep doing what we're doing because maybe it's useful (but maybe not!) are not playing with a full sack.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Davan

Originally posted by: umbrella39
When you grow up, you might be able to look further than your nose. What sacrifices have you made? When does your tour begin? When will you kids realize that when we abuse and kill detainees, it opens the doors ever wider for our GIs to enjoy the same fate. Unless you are one of the few and the proud, I think pehaps you should just stand in the corner and stop playing armchair General with others lives.

So are you saying that only men serving in the armed forces are allowed an opinion? Interesting. Maybe you should tell us about your time in the military before speaking so that we know you also have the right to an opinion on this matter.

Understanding and supporting the reasons behind what is necessary is hardly playing armchair General. Its more along the lines of supporting those who must do what is right, regardless of how unappreciative and thankless many of the Americans they continue to protect are to their efforcts. Yourself included apparently.

You would not know what is "right" if it came up and bit you on your ass. All I see is a bush fanboi typing away. Bravo brave sir chickenhawk.

 

[3chordcharlie]

What a freakin shill.

Every few months someone comes along and manages to set a new low-bar for being a completely retarded party-line fluffer.

PJ here is definitely the current champ.

 

[sandorski]

If lack of another attack on US soil is justification for Gitmo, then Clinton was a freakin genius in thwarting Al Queda.