Tommie John epidemic

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
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30+ players already this year have needed TJ surgury and for the first time if a player plays for 10 years hes got a 50 percent chance to have it.

People have been wondering the cause for years. I have always posited that curveballs and too many innings when the pitchers are kids is the cause.

Today on Chicago sports radio the actual Tommie John who used to play with the white sox first hurt his elbow when he was 13. His surgeons always thought it was because of his injuries when he was young.

Recently Scott Boras-horrible agent- said its because parents are pushing their kids to throw in winter leagues so they get drafted early and seen by scouts.


What do you guys think?


http://www.fishstripes.com/2014/5/1...urgery-ucl-injuries-explanation-miami-marlins


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_John_surgery


http://www.drivelinebaseball.com/20...-causes-them-bonus-stephen-strasburg-content/



what I find interesting is the microfractures do not show up on MRIs usually.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
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The sports guys last night said that, years ago, pitchers also played other positions. Not just pitching. Now, pitching is where the $$ is at and the surgery is routine so they pitch until they can't.
 

Insomniator

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2002
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Haven't they known to limit curve balls when young for years now? We were told not throw any when I played ~15 years ago.

I think its similar to ACL tears. Players are getting bigger, stronger, faster and training more... but that doesn't mean the tendons and ligaments maintain pace with everything else.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
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One huge reason the surgery is so popular is because it's become so successful and reliable over time.
 

acheron

Diamond Member
May 27, 2008
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Recently Scott Boras-horrible agent- said its because parents are pushing their kids to throw in winter leagues so they get drafted early and seen by scouts.

He's not a horrible agent for his players. Which is his job.
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
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I believe Boras makes an extremely good point. These overused younger arms develop improperly with increased scar tissue, which they aren't able to overcome.

Also the average American diet has become extremely poor and now contains a lack of collagen forming foods.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
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It's both leisure time and the lure of scholarships and drafting money. Even a generation ago most kids didn't have the time to put in practicing and playing baseball like they do today. Kids back then had to do chores, study for school and work part time jobs. Today kids are not asked to do such things. Plus college is so expensive getting a scholarship is far more important.

Today if a kid shows any sign of promise then parents give them all the time they want or need to play baseball. By the time a kid is ready for college today he has already had significant wear and tear on his arm.
 

SearchMaster

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Jun 6, 2002
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Leo Mazzone (pitching coach for the Braves during their pitching heyday) says the exact opposite - kids and minor leaguers are being held to strict pitch counts and not allowed to properly strengthen their arms. He says that it should be up to the coach to identify when a pitcher is getting tired, and if he's not able to do that he shouldn't be coaching.

My oldest son (15yo) plays at a pretty high level (tried out for the 16U USA national team last fall) but doesn't pitch. My wife went to the Caribbean with her sister last spring and said she ran into 3 different American young men (two waiters and a hotel staff) who went to college on pitching scholarships but blew out their arms before they could go pro. We're very thankful we never put him on the pitching track.

I have another friend who is ~40yo who was a very good pitcher for UNC in the 90s, and had a short minor league career. He said that he didn't really get serious about baseball until he was 16, but today it's nearly impossible to get any recognition that way.

As to the curve ball issue, very few coaches are strict about limiting it. By the time you're 13, you're expected to throw one effectively. One of my son's friends is 14 and has a great curve ball; one game last Spring he threw 140+ pitches and I'm sure half of them were curves. My middle son (13yo) pitches and does throw curveballs but it's not his best pitch and we have personally demanded the coach take him out of the game when we know or see he's tired - for better or worse.
 

M0oG0oGaiPan

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Dec 7, 2000
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it starts when they're young and throw too many pitches. some types of pitches have more shearing force that mess up the arm faster. some people also mistakenly believe they can throw faster after the surgery.
 

SearchMaster

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2002
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It's both leisure time and the lure of scholarships

Baseball scholarships are pretty hard to come by. D1 schools have 35 players but only 27 can be on any sort of scholarship, and they only 11.7 full schollies to divide amongst those 27 players. D2 has 9 scholarships, D3 has 0, and NAIA has 12. JUCO is actually the best way to get a scholarship as they have 24 full rides available.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
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I believe Boras makes an extremely good point. These overused younger arms develop improperly with increased scar tissue, which they aren't able to overcome.

Also the average American diet has become extremely poor and now contains a lack of collagen forming foods.

I agree with the first point, but not the second. Nutrition is better than the previous generation, especially for elite athletes.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
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I agree with the first point, but not the second. Nutrition is better than the previous generation, especially for elite athletes.
Not if we're talking teens and fast food. How many get a home cooked meal with veggies even a couple of times a week?
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
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I think the primary factor is the raising of the mound, the extra velocity and strain on the arm that that puts is always understated.

Combine the raised mound with teaching mechanics centered around taking advantage of that raised mound, you have an arm that is experiencing way too much whip for the ligament.
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
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Leo Mazzone (pitching coach for the Braves during their pitching heyday) says the exact opposite - kids and minor leaguers are being held to strict pitch counts and not allowed to properly strengthen their arms. He says that it should be up to the coach to identify when a pitcher is getting tired, and if he's not able to do that he shouldn't be coaching.

My oldest son (15yo) plays at a pretty high level (tried out for the 16U USA national team last fall) but doesn't pitch. My wife went to the Caribbean with her sister last spring and said she ran into 3 different American young men (two waiters and a hotel staff) who went to college on pitching scholarships but blew out their arms before they could go pro. We're very thankful we never put him on the pitching track.

I have another friend who is ~40yo who was a very good pitcher for UNC in the 90s, and had a short minor league career. He said that he didn't really get serious about baseball until he was 16, but today it's nearly impossible to get any recognition that way.

As to the curve ball issue, very few coaches are strict about limiting it. By the time you're 13, you're expected to throw one effectively. One of my son's friends is 14 and has a great curve ball; one game last Spring he threw 140+ pitches and I'm sure half of them were curves. My middle son (13yo) pitches and does throw curveballs but it's not his best pitch and we have personally demanded the coach take him out of the game when we know or see he's tired - for better or worse.

I pitched growing up into highschool and the best of the guys I played with ended up in the Majors was Craig Wilson. A bunch of the guys I went up with had amazing arms and all of them blew them out. My problem isnt pitch count during the season but the season has turned into 4 season ball. The arms dont get to rest and recoup. Tom Seaver never lifted weights outside of some lower body stuff and now you have guys who lift and have built arms and wrists with no flexibility so the stress and torque goes into the elbow. I still dont like younsters throwing curves however and I dont see the point in letting them throw it when they are young. Kids should work on location and learn how to work a batter.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,290
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Leo Mazzone (pitching coach for the Braves during their pitching heyday) says the exact opposite - kids and minor leaguers are being held to strict pitch counts and not allowed to properly strengthen their arms. He says that it should be up to the coach to identify when a pitcher is getting tired, and if he's not able to do that he shouldn't be coaching.

My oldest son (15yo) plays at a pretty high level (tried out for the 16U USA national team last fall) but doesn't pitch. My wife went to the Caribbean with her sister last spring and said she ran into 3 different American young men (two waiters and a hotel staff) who went to college on pitching scholarships but blew out their arms before they could go pro. We're very thankful we never put him on the pitching track.

I have another friend who is ~40yo who was a very good pitcher for UNC in the 90s, and had a short minor league career. He said that he didn't really get serious about baseball until he was 16, but today it's nearly impossible to get any recognition that way.

As to the curve ball issue, very few coaches are strict about limiting it. By the time you're 13, you're expected to throw one effectively. One of my son's friends is 14 and has a great curve ball; one game last Spring he threw 140+ pitches and I'm sure half of them were curves. My middle son (13yo) pitches and does throw curveballs but it's not his best pitch and we have personally demanded the coach take him out of the game when we know or see he's tired - for better or worse.

Mazzone also said that pitchers should play catch every day. You know who never played catch? Greg Maddux.

Modern era baseball is a luck of the draw with whether or not the ligament will hold up to the stress of pitching on the increased raise of the mound.

For every pitching coach that says one thing, you'll find someone that says the opposite, and both have pitchers that they can point to for support. This tells me that it has nothing to do with regimen.

I think if baseball is able to get HGH and other PED under control they can maybe go back to a lower mound and not throw the game out of balance. It will help baseball in the long run because a lot less salary will be given to pitchers on the DL.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
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One huge reason the surgery is so popular is because it's become so successful and reliable over time.

And because so many guys come back even better. It's so effective that some GM's have not-so-jokingly suggested that they'd ask all their pitching prospects and draft choices to have the surgery even before they need it. It's like legal steroids, it's a medical way for pitchers to improve.
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
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And because so many guys come back even better. It's so effective that some GM's have not-so-jokingly suggested that they'd ask all their pitching prospects and draft choices to have the surgery even before they need it. It's like legal steroids, it's a medical way for pitchers to improve.

the reality is it only fixes damage. Thats what the doctors say. The degredation happens slowly so the pitcher doesnt notice it and adjusts till it goes. Then they get it fixed and feel better than they did when it was on its way out. Surprise surprise. Now from an investment perspective the teams have a point in the sense that if they get the surgury early they wont miss that year and a half while under contract or in a pennant run etc..
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
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Not if we're talking teens and fast food. How many get a home cooked meal with veggies even a couple of times a week?
I'd agree with you for shittier countries like cuba. But this is the U.S., and if kids show elite ability when they're young then their diet is pristine because the parents are hiring them coaches and dietitians. We also know a lot more today than in previous generations and have much better supplements, for example whey isolate (which didn't exist a decade ago). Better training and better nutrition = bigger stronger faster which is what we're seeing at the elite level today.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
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I'd agree with you for shittier countries like cuba. But this is the U.S., and if kids show elite ability when they're young then their diet is pristine because the parents are hiring them coaches and dietitians. We also know a lot more today than in previous generations and have much better supplements, for example whey isolate (which didn't exist a decade ago). Better training and better nutrition = bigger stronger faster which is what we're seeing at the elite level today.
May be. I tend to forget about the "nuts" (relative term) that do travel ball and the like.
 

Ayrahvon

Senior member
Aug 7, 2007
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I for a long time thought it was due to bad mechanics, but the stats don't really show that is the case. Over the past 20 years pitcher velocity and movement on off speed stuff have been way up. Those demands on the arm plus general overuse and the overall success rate of surgery have had teams opt for the surgery over other solutions to the problem.

Lowering the mound might help as the amount of pressure on the body is reduced significantly.
 

twinrider1

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2003
4,096
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What's all this talk about a Tommy Chong epidemic.
chongx-large.jpg
 

iamwiz82

Lifer
Jan 10, 2001
30,772
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Some of those historical baseball records a unfathomable. Think about complete games. The 'modern day' record for complete games is 33. Most pitchers never see 33 starts. Cy Young had 9 40 complete games seasons. How the hell did their bodies take that kind of punishment?? He had 749 complete games in his career. The highest ranking active player is CC Sabathia with a whopping 37 in his career.
 

Ayrahvon

Senior member
Aug 7, 2007
683
4
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Some of those historical baseball records a unfathomable. Think about complete games. The 'modern day' record for complete games is 33. Most pitchers never see 33 starts. Cy Young had 9 40 complete games seasons. How the hell did their bodies take that kind of punishment?? He had 749 complete games in his career. The highest ranking active player is CC Sabathia with a whopping 37 in his career.

Because pitchers today throw a lot harder and start a lot younger.

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphframe...&h=450&w=450&players=2036,1007124,200,1014369

Modern pitching is by far the most unhittable pitching yet. I don't mean to detract from the some of the all time greats, but they don't hold up compared to the new guys when it comes to stuff. Same goes for hitting of course, it is why I tend to try and avoid comparing too much between eras and just try to appreciate how awesome players are during their own time.