Tom Brady: Great Quarterback or Greatest Quarterback? With Poll!

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
Brady isn't even the #2 QB in the league.

There's a HUGE difference between being the greatest QB and being a great QB on an awesome team.

Maybe he isn't #1 or #2 based on numbers, but, unlike Peyton, he has delivered the Patriots three championships.

He didn't deliver anything by himself, the TEAM did. How many superbowls were won on the foot of Vinatieri? Heck, they wouldn't have even made it to their first superbowl if not for Vinatieri and certain special scenarios...

How many Superbowls would Peyton have won with the Patriot's defense and special teams?

Brady was FAR worse in stats in the 2001 and 2003 and 2004 seasons when he actually won superbowls than the 2005 season. If he was an even better QB, the Superbowl should have been a lock, no? What was the difference then? Oh, perhaps the fact that their team has been changing pretty drastically not just with players but with coaching staff...the team was WORSE and thus the TEAM (coaching staff included) couldn't win the Superbowl much less make it past the divisional round of the playoffs much less scrape by with a 10-6 record despite being in the worst divsion in the AFC.

 

[Deeko]

Dan Marino is the best quarterback of all time. Considering a football team plays 30+ players in every game, I hardly use number of championships or number of wins as a gauge of how good ANY individual player is. Barry Sanders only made the playoffs a few times in his career, he must be awful.

Tom Brady is a very good quarterback, maybe a great quarterback, but greatest? Hardly. He isn't even top 20 yet. Granted he's still young so only history will tell, but from what I've seen so far, no way.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Not even close to greated. Montana was the greatest.

 

[chambersc]

meh, he's alright.

 

[kalster]

hez a good quarterback in a good system. not greatest or great, their whole team,system is the reason for their good run and rings.

 

[Tom]

Dan Marino isn't even a great QB. He personally blew his one Superbowl chance, how does that = greatness ?

a career full of useless passing stats doesn't mean dinky. If he couldn't win championships playing for Miami, he couldn't win them anywhere.

Good, but not great.

 

[mrizvi66]

Originally posted by: Tom
Dan Marino isn't even a great QB. He personally blew his one Superbowl chance, how does that = greatness ?

a career full of useless passing stats doesn't mean dinky. If he couldn't win championships playing for Miami, he couldn't win them anywhere.

Good, but not great.

all he had to do to win a super bowl was to beat the greatest QB of all time....lets see who else beat Montana....ummmm....nobody...and last i check football was a team game...its not like he threw 5 ints....nobody would have had a chance that day...the 84 team was 15-1 and Montana cut up the Dolphins all day long....

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: BrokenVisage
Good QB who found himself at the center of an even better system and coaching staff with excellent role players around him, not to mention a good defense.

People say this as if Montana and other legendary QBs single-handedly made their teams great.

 

[five40]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
Brady isn't even the #2 QB in the league.

There's a HUGE difference between being the greatest QB and being a great QB on an awesome team.

Couldn't agree more. I don't see how anyone can rank Brady so damn high already. Those other QB's where around for so long. What if Brady's career ended next week, he would barely make the top 10 QB's of all time. Brady's numbers are no where near Montana, Elway, Marino, Favre, Aikman, Bradshaw, Starr, Namath, etc... If he continues his current numbers for a whole career and wins two or three more Superbowls then I say he's the best ever hands down.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: mrizvi66

Originally posted by: Tom
Dan Marino isn't even a great QB. He personally blew his one Superbowl chance, how does that = greatness ?

a career full of useless passing stats doesn't mean dinky. If he couldn't win championships playing for Miami, he couldn't win them anywhere.

Good, but not great.

all he had to do to win a super bowl was to beat the greatest QB of all time....lets see who else beat Montana....ummmm....nobody...and last i check football was a team game...its not like he threw 5 ints....nobody would have had a chance that day...the 84 team was 15-1 and Montana cut up the Dolphins all day long....

Boomer came a lot closer than Marino to beating Montana. And nobody claims Boomer was a great QB, including me.

But I'd take him over Marino.

 

[Deeko]

Again....big deal. He is one out of many, many players. Greatness of a PLAYER is not dictated by wins!

 

[puffff]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
Brady's Postseason stats courtesy of Wiki:

NFL record for most consecutive wins in post season: 10 (broke record of Green Bay Packer Bart Starr).
NFL record 10?1 in the post-season
367 passes attempted
225 passes completed
2493 passing yards (226.6 ypg)
15 passing touchdowns
5 passes intercepted
73.7 passing attempts per interception in the post-season (lowest rate, NFL history (minimum 250 pass attempts): Bart Starr second with 71 attempts per post-season interception)
4 Pro Bowls
2 Super Bowl MVP awards
3 Super Bowl victories
Most completions in a Super Bowl

And how many 4th quarter comebacks has he engineered vs the likes of Favre, Elway, Montana, and Marino? Rings are way way overrated b/c it's a function of a team (Brady in no way affects a team's DEFENSE), just as wins are for a pitcher in baseball.

Last but not least, the S.Bowl completion record, while impressive, was a direct result of the Pats' system of nickel and diming defenses to death with short completions. Very effective and you can say Brady was the best at it, but definitely not more impressive than 4th Q comebacks by the aforementioned 4 (IMO).

the guy is 10-1 in the playoffs. does he really need to have any 'made for sportscenter' comebacks? could it be that he just gets his team the lead early and doesnt have to look back?

 

[z42]

I can't imagine ranking any quarterback that doesn't have to call his own plays as being better than Montana, Bradshaw, Starr, Unitas, Staubach, etc. Todays quarterbacks have so much less impact on their teams than the older QBs did. I think Brady has been very clutch, and I would say he has been a great quarterback. IMO, he has to keep it up for a few more years to be considered for the HOF, much less being the greatest ever.

People who are a little older (late 30s-50s) have a much different perspective than the espn generation does. ESPN has been hyping the "ring validates the career" thing ever since Elway won his first superbowl and Malone and the Jazz were trying to beat Jordan and the bulls.

On a side note, I would already rank Brady ahead of Elway. Elway made so many brain dead plays to keep his team out of the superbowl and playoffs for the first 10 years of his career that noone likes to bring up. Then they get a stud running back, great offensive line, and Shanahan and all of a sudden Elway is the greatest quarterback ever LOL. There is a reason he had so many comebacks; all the stupid interceptions he threw and 120mph 4 yard passes that got his team behind in the first place. He did play great for the last 3 years of his career, but in my mind Brady has already surpassed that.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: puffff

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
Brady's Postseason stats courtesy of Wiki:

NFL record for most consecutive wins in post season: 10 (broke record of Green Bay Packer Bart Starr).
NFL record 10?1 in the post-season
367 passes attempted
225 passes completed
2493 passing yards (226.6 ypg)
15 passing touchdowns
5 passes intercepted
73.7 passing attempts per interception in the post-season (lowest rate, NFL history (minimum 250 pass attempts): Bart Starr second with 71 attempts per post-season interception)
4 Pro Bowls
2 Super Bowl MVP awards
3 Super Bowl victories
Most completions in a Super Bowl

And how many 4th quarter comebacks has he engineered vs the likes of Favre, Elway, Montana, and Marino? Rings are way way overrated b/c it's a function of a team (Brady in no way affects a team's DEFENSE), just as wins are for a pitcher in baseball.

Last but not least, the S.Bowl completion record, while impressive, was a direct result of the Pats' system of nickel and diming defenses to death with short completions. Very effective and you can say Brady was the best at it, but definitely not more impressive than 4th Q comebacks by the aforementioned 4 (IMO).

the guy is 10-1 in the playoffs. does he really need to have any 'made for sportscenter' comebacks? could it be that he just gets his team the lead early and doesnt have to look back?

Clearly the point went over your head and landed on an the barren wastelands of Mars. Wins don't mean shvt without a good coach, receivers, a kicker, and defense. You say this 10-1 shvt was purely b/c of Brady. The % of wins attributed to QBs is a lot higher for 4th Q comebacks than BRADY has ever achieved. Greatness means throwing the team on your back and winning the game, not relying on a kicker or your defense for more than half of your postseason wins

You're undoubtedly one of the 16 morons who voted "Greatest" so you get a Stupid Pass from my lessons. Class dismissed.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: z42
I can't imagine ranking any quarterback that doesn't have to call his own plays as being better than Montana, Bradshaw, Starr, Unitas, Staubach, etc. Todays quarterbacks have so much less impact on their teams than the older QBs did. I think Brady has been very clutch, and I would say he has been a great quarterback. IMO, he has to keep it up for a few more years to be considered for the HOF, much less being the greatest ever.

People who are a little older (late 30s-50s) have a much different perspective than the espn generation does. ESPN has been hyping the "ring validates the career" thing ever since Elway won his first superbowl and Malone and the Jazz were trying to beat Jordan and the bulls.

On a side note, I would already rank Brady ahead of Elway. Elway made so many brain dead plays to keep his team out of the superbowl and playoffs for the first 10 years of his career that noone likes to bring up. Then they get a stud running back, great offensive line, and Shanahan and all of a sudden Elway is the greatest quarterback ever LOL. There is a reason he had so many comebacks; all the stupid interceptions he threw and 120mph 4 yard passes that got his team behind in the first place. He did play great for the last 3 years of his career, but in my mind Brady has already surpassed that.

47 combacks vs 21, /discussion.

 

[Tom]

You can't comeback unless you are behind..

If I could have my pick of QBs for my team I would pick..

1.Montana
2.Bradshaw
3.Starr or Staubach or Greise.
6.Elway or Plunkett or Brady or Favre. about equal.

 

[Fingolfin269]

I don't understand why people keep calling it 'Brady's Postseason Winning %'. Come on dude. He doesn't single handedly go out there and win those games. If you want to go by winning % and rings then everyone who was with the Pats during that span is also the 2nd best of their position EVER.

BTW, hold out your judgement on Brady until he has dealt with some seasons that are not so rosy. They are coming. If he can perform at a great level without so much greatness around him then perhaps we can find a slot for him with the greats of all time. Until then, why are we even having this discussion?

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
He's the 2nd best QB of all-time, behind Montana

I'd agree with montana being no.1 but brady being 2nd is crazy.

How can you argue with 3 SB Rings and 2 Super Bowl MVP awards?

a great team around anybody has the chance to win a superbowl

who was the ravens QB when they won the SB??

ya, a SB win defintely proves the greatness of a QB.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats

Originally posted by: Syrch
I'd never put brady in teh same classification as Elway, Kelly, Farve (though he is done)...

Kelly never got the ring, I don't see how you can put him in the same category as brady

Using rings as the determining factor is overrated. There are a few dozen players that contribute to any football team's success. Then you have the coaches and the system they use. Then add in the fact that maybe you do have a great team and system, but on any given year there was another team that was just a little bit better overall, or maybe you just had some back luck along the way (e.g. inuries). Lots of things can contribute to a team's ability/inability to win the championship. Sure, the QB is one of the most important pieces, but I wouldn't ever say a lack of rings should be used to determine a player's worth or standing.

i've said it many times, but if Montana had been drafted by Al Davis and the raiders, he might have washed out of the NFL completely.

getting a QB that fits a certain system is crucial.

brady was the right QB and the right time, doesn't mean he isn't great, it just means that SB wins by themselves don't prove anything.

i still think marino is a top 10 QB all time.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: JujuFish
Brady fell into the perfect system for his strengths, surrounded by a complete team.

true.

shoot, the first year brady won the SB, if belicheck had put Bledsoe in instead i bet they STILL would have won.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Pacemaker

Originally posted by: Syrch

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats

Originally posted by: Syrch
I'd never put brady in teh same classification as Elway, Kelly, Farve (though he is done)...

Kelly never got the ring, I don't see how you can put him in the same category as brady

Kelly nor Marino got the ring. But they are far better than Brady. Just b/c you have a ring doesn't mean you are great. Lets look at Brad Johnson...he has a ring is he better than Marino and Kelly?

So does Jim McMahon, and I wouldn't put him in the top 1000 QB's. He was a smart QB who basically didn't turn over much and let the defence win the game.

Edit: well that and handed the ball to one of the best Running backs ever.

no, you are not giving mcmahon NEAR enough credit, he did more with less talent than any pro QB evar.

he definitely isn't great but in his prime i'd take him over 2/3's of the starting qb's today.

 

[KMFJD]

Originally posted by: JujuFish
Brady fell into the perfect system for his strengths, surrounded by a complete team.

You could say that about a lot of great QB's

 

[oboeguy]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Great with a good shot to be the greatest.

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
He's the 2nd best QB of all-time, behind Montana

I can't disagree with these two except that I'm not so sure that Brady is #2 yet. It's hard to ignore Marino and Elway.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: z42
I can't imagine ranking any quarterback that doesn't have to call his own plays as being better than Montana, Bradshaw, Starr, Unitas, Staubach, etc. Todays quarterbacks have so much less impact on their teams than the older QBs did. I think Brady has been very clutch, and I would say he has been a great quarterback. IMO, he has to keep it up for a few more years to be considered for the HOF, much less being the greatest ever.

People who are a little older (late 30s-50s) have a much different perspective than the espn generation does. ESPN has been hyping the "ring validates the career" thing ever since Elway won his first superbowl and Malone and the Jazz were trying to beat Jordan and the bulls.

On a side note, I would already rank Brady ahead of Elway. Elway made so many brain dead plays to keep his team out of the superbowl and playoffs for the first 10 years of his career that noone likes to bring up. Then they get a stud running back, great offensive line, and Shanahan and all of a sudden Elway is the greatest quarterback ever LOL. There is a reason he had so many comebacks; all the stupid interceptions he threw and 120mph 4 yard passes that got his team behind in the first place. He did play great for the last 3 years of his career, but in my mind Brady has already surpassed that.

uhhh duh, montana's plays were SCRIPTED, the bill walsh method.

 

[Pacemaker]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Pacemaker

Originally posted by: Syrch

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats

Originally posted by: Syrch
I'd never put brady in teh same classification as Elway, Kelly, Farve (though he is done)...

Kelly never got the ring, I don't see how you can put him in the same category as brady

Kelly nor Marino got the ring. But they are far better than Brady. Just b/c you have a ring doesn't mean you are great. Lets look at Brad Johnson...he has a ring is he better than Marino and Kelly?

So does Jim McMahon, and I wouldn't put him in the top 1000 QB's. He was a smart QB who basically didn't turn over much and let the defence win the game.

Edit: well that and handed the ball to one of the best Running backs ever.

no, you are not giving mcmahon NEAR enough credit, he did more with less talent than any pro QB evar.

he definitely isn't great but in his prime i'd take him over 2/3's of the starting qb's today.

McMahon was probably the best mental QB of his time, he knew how to read the D and how and when to change the play. However, as a lifelong Bears fan I am still a little upset with the guy for helping teach Favre to play QB better and dooming the bears to lose to them for almost Favre's whole career (I do give some credit to Favre he has the talent, but McMahon helped him with the mental part of the game)