Toilet tank bowl residue removal - both rust and rubber -- also a bit of a miracle

[Torn Mind]

After discovering one fill valve gasket leak in a toilet, I decided to check up on the other toilets in the house and found the master bedroom one was leaking from the tank bolts. I got around to that toilet today and discovered the only thing sealing the tank was the rusted out bolt heads and who-knows-how old washers. The tank bolts were rotted through and the tank was literally free to just lift off.

Now the time consuming part is upon me. The rubber and rust have both left residue and I've been trying a mix of both physical and chemical. My primary concern is getting enough residue off for the new bolts. From my experimentation, ammonia works...a bit too well. I got it on the flush valve gasket it and a load of black just immediately came out. I'll probably have to soak something and let it sit on the area.

The old gasket residue is stubborn and I'm tempted to used something like mass airflow sensor cleaner to release the material. I've also used some steel wool to try to make progress.

The remaining rust is stubborn as well and I know hydrochloric acid can bust through it, but it gives off fumes.

 

[Steltek]

Did you try a white vinegar soak overnight (some people also add baking soda) or maybe a soak in CLR solution on the rust stains?

 

[Torn Mind]

Did you try a white vinegar soak overnight (some people also add baking soda) or maybe a soak in CLR solution on the rust stains?

Haven't got a chance to do overnight but I do have CLR and brought over the phosphoric acid. 33% HCl is much more powerful than CLR though. I tried it cleaning the bottom exterior with a very light application of HCL. The CLR barely did much to break the rust+scale scabs but sure bubbled up the mineral deposits on the underside. I wound up darkening the stainless steel drain cover(company name Fiat) in the shower a bit with the HCl, but the shower is as old anyway.

I applied HCl via toothbrush to the offending areas of the tank interior this afternoon and left it. It's just a tad captivating to literally see the fumes.

The initial cleaning was breaking off the loose material with my Waterpik. But some of this rust is like a tough scab and even fine steel wool can't break it off easily. Never mind getting the crevices on the tank interior loose, which is the most important to me since I intend to silicone grease the new gaskets and want that area as clean as possible. .

The toilet is an old Briggs. The tank wasn't double nutted and that leaves me questioning whether I should double nut or not. .

 

[Torn Mind]

I've come to the conclusion that this is some unholy complex of hard water minerals and rust because it took a while for the hydrochloric acid to strip it off and I had to keep re-applying because the tank does not sit level. It is mostly gone for this one.

The other one is even rougher.

 

[Micrornd]

I've never seen brass bolts do that

 

[Torn Mind]

I've never seen brass bolts do that

Not easy to find all brass hardware except at the local pro supply store(Ferguson here) and even they provide the option of all brass or a mix. Somehow, there is a Fluidmaster 400AK complete kit with copyright year 2000 with three true all brass bolts, six brass nuts, and 3 brass washers already in the house. Seems like an invisible hand(profit motive for Fluidmaster itself) or two(plumbers wanting it that way so they are the only ones who can insure an "eternal install") made Fluidmaster downgrade the nuts and washers in the kit.

I intend to silicone grease the rubber since after all, silicone is god in water repulsion.

For one HD Everbuilt set, they provide stainless bolts but reviewers say they cheap out on the rubber gasket and cap screw width. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbil...ss-Steel-Toilet-Tank-Bolt-Set-55118/312258776

 

[Steltek]

Looking at those pictures, I'd say that it has had a couple of non-brass bolts installed in the distant past (probably on the cheap) and no cleaning was done between installs.

Provided the porcelain glaze is still in good shape below the rust stain, you might try scrubbing it with a wet pumice stone (i.e. plug the holes, put water in the bottom of the tank, and use the pumice stone on the stain under water).

I wouldn't do it, though, if there is any chance the porcelain glaze is damaged underneath as pumice would further damage the surface you are cleaning.

 

[Torn Mind]

Looking at those pictures, I'd say that it has had a couple of non-brass bolts installed in the distant past (probably on the cheap) and no cleaning was done between installs.

Provided the porcelain glaze is still in good shape below the rust stain, you might try scrubbing it with a wet pumice stone (i.e. plug the holes, put water in the bottom of the tank, and use the pumice stone on the stain under water).

I wouldn't do it, though, if there is any chance the porcelain glaze is damaged underneath as pumice would further damage the surface you are cleaning.

The retention nut for the fill valve is brass, so this toilet is indeed very old, possibly original(early 70s) as there is an "Important" label taped on the right side and the font looks vintage. I don't know when the conversion to plastic occurred, but it was definitely a while back.

I'm still sticking with the topical application of hydrochloric acid. I haven't taken a pic of the "cleaned" hole; nearly everything in pic 1 is gone now. I destroyed a toothbrush in the process because HCl dissolves nylon and I let the toothbrush sit on top of the stains to keep the area moist.

I doubt plumbers carry Tek-Gel in their trucks and even then, this stuff is a hard, tough material that takes time to remove. It'd be a new toilet or full-on gamble no leaks would occur.

 

[Micrornd]

Not easy to find all brass hardware except at the local pro supply store(Ferguson here) and even they provide the option of all brass or a mix.

Lowes, HD and Amazon all carry them in my area.

 

[Torn Mind]

Lowes, HD and Amazon all carry them in my area.

HD ships this, and it's like stored in a New Jersey or New Work area based on zip code shipping times. They make you wait for relief.

Premier 5/16 in. x 3-1/4 in. Solid Brass Closet Tank Bolt-555326 - The Home Depot

The product is high quality and reliability and durability. The product is ease to use and attractive styling. The product is wide selection of product choices and great value.

www.homedepot.com

 

[Torn Mind]

All due hydrochloric acid.

The brown in the tank side is also hard water deposits. It’s white on the bottom because phosphoric acid, CLR, etc has soaked the bottom and dissolved the deposits away.

The Potomac River sends it’s regards in creating this misery.

 

[pete6032]

I have heard naval jelly works but I'm not sure if that would damage the porcelain.

 

[Thump553]

Serious question-why even bother to try to remove these stains and scale? Three toilets in our house, the newest was installed 18-20 years ago. Another I replaced sometime in the 90's and the third is probably 50+ years old.

I looked the other days and all three tanks are almost black on the inside with deposits. I put roughly 1-2 cups of white vinegar in the newest tank, and let it sit for roughly four hours. It took a minor amount of the black out. But then I got to thinking that my cleaning efforts may damage the plastic and rubber parts inside and it may be best to just leave it alone.

In my case there are no substantial deposits, it's mostly stained.

Any thoughts?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I did this decades ago, haven’t done it since.
I can’t remember what’s I did but I know I soaked in white vinegar then again with CLR.
I don’t remember the order but on the second soak I scrubbed it with a wire or really stiff brush and it cleaned up pretty good.
Knowing what I know today I would have just replaced the tank.

 

[balloonshark]

Serious question-why even bother to try to remove these stains and scale? Three toilets in our house, the newest was installed 18-20 years ago. Another I replaced sometime in the 90's and the third is probably 50+ years old.

I looked the other days and all three tanks are almost black on the inside with deposits. I put roughly 1-2 cups of white vinegar in the newest tank, and let it sit for roughly four hours. It took a minor amount of the black out. But then I got to thinking that my cleaning efforts may damage the plastic and rubber parts inside and it may be best to just leave it alone.

In my case there are no substantial deposits, it's mostly stained.

Any thoughts?

I'm also facing the same problem in my apartment except I think I have mold and mildew. According to this old house and bob villa you can drain the tank and add 3 gallons of white or distilled vinegar for 12 hours.

How to Clean a Toilet Tank

Leearn why it's a good idea to clean inside your toilet tank, and which products you should use to get the job done.

www.bobvila.com

How To Clean a Toilet Tank

Does your toilet tank need a deep clean? Learn how to sanitize it using our simple techniques and common household items.

www.thisoldhouse.com

 

[Torn Mind]

Serious question-why even bother to try to remove these stains and scale? Three toilets in our house, the newest was installed 18-20 years ago. Another I replaced sometime in the 90's and the third is probably 50+ years old.

I looked the other days and all three tanks are almost black on the inside with deposits. I put roughly 1-2 cups of white vinegar in the newest tank, and let it sit for roughly four hours. It took a minor amount of the black out. But then I got to thinking that my cleaning efforts may damage the plastic and rubber parts inside and it may be best to just leave it alone.

In my case there are no substantial deposits, it's mostly stained.

Any thoughts?

I am targeting the these areas because I want to have a flatter surface for the rubber gaskets to seal the hole. A small cylinder of the porcelain closest to the hole has no rust but the majority of the area under the rubber gasket is elevated and bumpy due to the rust and hard water minerals managing to migrate under the gasket.

A little brown staining wouldn't matter otherwise to me.

The most destructive chemical is ammonia. The black rubber immediately starts flowing upon exposure. Acids not so much.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

After discovering one fill valve gasket leak in a toilet, I decided to check up on the other toilets in the house and found the master bedroom one was leaking from the tank bolts. I got around to that toilet today and discovered the only thing sealing the tank was the rusted out bolt heads and who-knows-how old washers. The tank bolts were rotted through and the tank was literally free to just lift off.

Now the time consuming part is upon me. The rubber and rust have both left residue and I've been trying a mix of both physical and chemical. My primary concern is getting enough residue off for the new bolts. From my experimentation, ammonia works...a bit too well. I got it on the flush valve gasket it and a load of black just immediately came out. I'll probably have to soak something and let it sit on the area.

The old gasket residue is stubborn and I'm tempted to used something like mass airflow sensor cleaner to release the material. I've also used some steel wool to try to make progress.

The remaining rust is stubborn as well and I know hydrochloric acid can bust through it, but it gives off fumes.

Are you on city water, or well water?

I ask because I ran into this before, with a well treatment system. Uses hydrogen peroxide due to the very high sulfide content of our well water. Previous owners had the pump cranked to 100% which was permitting a very large amount of free peroxide into our system which was eating away at basically everything metallic. Copper, brass, stainless steel, didn't matter. Don't let anyone lie to you, that crap will eat through anything. We had the exact same thing happen to our brass bolts on our toilet tanks, as well as the replacements I bought (they were pitting within a week!) which clued me in to the problem.

After playing with the pump, I was able to cut it down to ~50%, no more problems, and water is still fine.

EDIT: in fact, turns out I still have some pictures floating around.

 

[Torn Mind]

Are you on city water, or well water?

I ask because I ran into this before, with a well treatment system. Uses hydrogen peroxide due to the very high sulfide content of our well water. Previous owners had the pump cranked to 100% which was permitting a very large amount of free peroxide into our system which was eating away at basically everything metallic. Copper, brass, stainless steel, didn't matter. Don't let anyone lie to you, that crap will eat through anything. We had the exact same thing happen to our brass bolts on our toilet tanks, as well as the replacements I bought (they were pitting within a week!) which clued me in to the problem.

After playing with the pump, I was able to cut it down to ~50%, no more problems, and water is still fine.

EDIT: in fact, turns out I still have some pictures floating around.
View attachment 46845

City water for this particular case. The Potomac River is the source for the house of this toilet. Suburb house although I do know once you enter the fringes of suburbia...that's when the well water area starts.

DC area is a like a cake and it's small enough that a 30 mile radius is enough to see all layers.