Together, shoulder to shoulder, we shall prevail !

[Zenoth]

Being French myself I must say I couldn't feel better and more proud about the man I voted for to represent my interests and ideals to the world.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITI.../index.html#cnnSTCText

I think it was about time, about time that France showed the world, from no where else than in Washington, that we are ready to collaborate, to participate, to be part of the fight and not just talk like our past governments had a frustrating tendency to do (and talk against others). I know there has to be people still, around the world, who fell to the anti-French propaganda over the past decades due to their mistakes and betrayals (WWII, for example). But this new French government is doing us good since we elected it. Just like he said it himself during the elections, "France will be back in Europe".

I even know a few people at my job who were originally against him, but today are changing their minds and even start to appreciate what he's doing to our nation. Let's stand together against the tyranny of terrorism, let's show to the world what Freedom really is, and what and how free men and free women can and will fight for. Liberty cannot fully exist and contend with terror and barbarism, and the blood of freedom shall prevail if, especially, we all stay together, shoulder to shoulder. As a responsible citizen, I believe that voting for him has been so far my best democratic investment in my young life. I mean, a standing ovation to a French president ... in the U.S.A ? And even else where around the world ? It was almost too much for my eyes to believe, but it felt great in my heart. Now I do know that change is on its way and has in fact already started.

I am proud of Sarkozy, of France, more than ever before, it was just about God damn time wasn't it ?

 

[GrGr]

Hehe, Sarkozy is a blazing Zionist.

The major leading French newspaper recently wrote that Sarkozy has worked for (still does?) the Mossad.

So now the US/UK/France/Israel will form a block to push Zionism through in the ME, naturally against the wishes of the local Muslims, and equally naturally under the cloak of GWoT. Recently Germany's Merkel kissed Zionist butt too.

In the meantime Russia and China are growing increasingly close, pushed together by western belligerence. Looks like the line is being drawn for who will be on which side for WWIII. Not that it will matter much in the end.

 

[Zenoth]

World War III ...

Yes many people think it will happen but I'm not part of them.

And I see no threat in China nor even Russia. The Chinese have a very ambitious space program going on, and their economy is closing on the podium of the world's top three fast enough. They are growing, but why would they grow for the purpose of war ? To spend their growth on a major resource-gathering push for total war ? Everything they built during the past decades put at risk of annihilation in a war where obviously Nuclear weapons will play a major role ? I don't think so.

Russians have had their time of competition with the U.S.A already, and it ended in 1991. The direct victims of the Cold War are innocent Russian civilians living near what was back then Nuclear Test sites, suffering from the radioactive fallouts (malformations, cancers, and many forms of illness), everything of course denied by the then government, and perhaps still denied by today's government. They've spent enough of their economy on building weapons that were never used, but only for political provocation (Tsar Bomb), and other forms of military demonstrations and parades. All that was back then.

Today basically the whole planet is already at war, against terrorism. Those extremists don't care if there's people against those wars amongst us. They will simply kill the innocent whatever they say or think about the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan. The real enemies are those extremists ready to kill the innocent even without any warnings.

But instead, there's still "alliances" that keep hating each others because it seems to be simply cool to hate people for no apparent reasons, or for mistakes made by 50 years-old or even 300 years-old governments/kings/monarchy. Instead of standing shoulder to shoulder there's U.S citizens hating French citizens, then there's French hating Americans, then there's British hating French, then there's French hating British. Then there's Spanish hating British and Morocco, then there's British hating Spanish. And then, yes, Germans hating French, French hating Germans ... Germans hating Russians, Russians hating Germans, then you have Chinese hating Japanese, and Japanese hating Chinese. Hmmm, let's think ... oh yes, then you have two different cultures battling against each others in the exact same country on a political extent, in Belgium (which is currently without a government), and then you have Iraqis hating Americans, and then Americans hating Iraqis ... and then you have Iranians hating Americans and vise versa.

And I could go on and on and on and on ...

Apparently, the whole world hates itself, hatred nourishes hundreds of nations worldwide. I call that a war, in another form.

I say, instead, let's wake up, realize what has to be done, and let's do it together.

 

[Nebor]

It's about time the French looked at what the terrorists were doing in their own country (inciting riots and civil unrest) and decided to fight. Glad to have them aboard!

PS, I like how GrGr says "zionist" like it's a dirty word.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Zenoth
I think it was about time, about time that France showed the world, from no where else than in Washington, that we are ready to collaborate

I thought you already showed that in 1940

 

[Zenoth]

Me ? no aphorisms or subtle messages needed here, I wasn't born in 1940.

If you mean the incompetent government back then and not "me" (as in *all* French people), then I will agree, agree that they didn't do much in their power to help the cause that the rest of the non-Axis powers were fighting for. But go back in time and go tell that in person to Marshal Pétin instead and the Vichy "government" instead. Those were the traitors, and thanks to his old age, Marshal Pétin escaped the death penalty for High Treason. And go back in time and ask the Free French Forces what their thought of their country and their rulers back then ...

No need to let me know the French back in the '40's weren't "part of the world" except for their oh so mighty military that served no other purposes but to drain the economic resources of the nation (the Maginot Line's cost to the nation had to be paid up until the '60's, if I'm not wrong). No need for anything like such a dark moment in our history to repeat itself.

 

[senseamp]

It was joke, don't over analyze it. Good night.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Zenoth
I know there has to be people still, around the world, who fell to the anti-French propaganda over the past decades due to their mistakes and betrayals (WWII, for example).

what exactly did france do in ww2 that could be categorized as a betrayal or mistake? Getting routed by a superior army certainly doesn't count, the british fled the continent and left france to rot but they never get any criticism over it. Any country next to germany that would have been invaded in 1939 would have been overrun, definitely including the united states.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Zenoth
Me ? no aphorisms or subtle messages needed here, I wasn't born in 1940.

If you mean the incompetent government back then and not "me" (as in *all* French people), then I will agree, agree that they didn't do much in their power to help the cause that the rest of the non-Axis powers were fighting for. But go back in time and go tell that in person to Marshal Pétin instead and the Vichy "government" instead. Those were the traitors, and thanks to his old age, Marshal Pétin escaped the death penalty for High Treason. And go back in time and ask the Free French Forces what their thought of their country and their rulers back then ...

No need to let me know the French back in the '40's weren't "part of the world" except for their oh so mighty military that served no other purposes but to drain the economic resources of the nation (the Maginot Line's cost to the nation had to be paid up until the '60's, if I'm not wrong). No need for anything like such a dark moment in our history to repeat itself.

hey man i think we are still paying on Vietnam. Maginot line would have probably worked fine in 1919 or even 1929. 1939, eh not so much.

 

[Zenoth]

The Maginot Line worked as intended.

It forced the Nazi Germany to AVOID it. Instead of directly assaulting it and risking thousands of troops, they go through the Ardennes Forest. Back then, in 1940, the Maginot Line was the best fixed defense construction in the world, it was a 20th century marvel. It had conditioned air for crying out loud ! There were even small theaters for the troops ! There was an automated railway that traveled inside the miles-long tunnels for transportation, it had it own sources of energy for heating during the winter, no need to import electricity. The Maginot Line was the most expensive military defense project done by any countries back then (and perhaps still today nothing of that scale has been made, but I'm not 100% certain on that one, please correct me if I'm wrong).

If the Germans directly confronted it, that meant that they might have won anyway, yes, but at huge casualties. Thankfully, the Nazi generals were a little more intelligent than the French generals thought. See ... in 1918 there was the Schlieffen Plan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlieffen_Plan

So the French generals in 1940 were for the most part retired officers of the first World War who fought against that plan. Their strategies and military philosophies were old, and Nazi Germany used quite unorthodox methods of war (Blitzkrieg), which no countries would have been prepared to. The French thought the Germans would do the same thing and fail the same way they did during WW1. But they didn't. No, instead they decided to use mother nature and bypass the Maginot Line, taking the French forces by surprise. And the mechanical issues with the "superior" French armor helped nothing in the cause of defending the country ... and our cavalry wouldn't have been able to charge against the Panthers ...

The traitors during that time, to answer the question, were the Vichy Government who collaborated with Nazi Germany after the collapse of the French Army, to comply with their rules and "maintain order" in occupied France. Only a small part of the country wasn't entirely controlled, and was the source of the foundation of the resistance and those who thought that their "official" government, which became the Vichy Government, were the real enemies, and were just as bad as the Nazi and simply had to be dealt with. Marshal Pétin was accused of High Treason because he was part of the Vichy Government, and despite his "heroic" deeds in WW1, he became hated throughout most of the populace, but due to his old age he wasn't brought to death by penalty, as it was due to happen, originally.

Had the government refused to surrender, there wouldn't have been such a mass panic and a mass morale loss. Had the 70 years-old generals actually cared about the situation and their men and actually GAVE ORDERS the situation might have been quite different. In fact most of the officers (most of them in their late 60's) weren't quite able to go on the field (or so it seemed) to consult for their men and subordinates about what to do, where to go, and how to do it. The soldiers were mostly left to rot in the Maginot bunkers. In fact, when Paris was mourning after the Nazi were parading their troops on the Champs Elysée there were STILL troops in the Maginot Line AWAITING orders, can you imagine ?! Such was the mess. There were mistakes, treason, un-prepared military, un-prepared mentality, un-prepared politics, un-prepared population and un-prepared resources.

 

[StageLeft]

I don't know enough about him or France but if people there are legitimately happy with him (I'm sure many aren't, but you get my point), then that's a good thing probably.

BTW, surrender jokes are funny, but it's a shame that Americans who sat and watched for two years while Europe was plundered can be so critical of what France did and remain uncritical of what America didn't.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Nebor
It's about time the French looked at what the terrorists were doing in their own country (inciting riots and civil unrest) and decided to fight. Glad to have them aboard!

PS, I like how GrGr says "zionist" like it's a dirty word.

You have an obsession with power, even if you don't have any. There's a french word for people like you. It's called sycophant.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: GrGr
Hehe, Sarkozy is a blazing Zionist.

The major leading French newspaper recently wrote that Sarkozy has worked for (still does?) the Mossad.

So now the US/UK/France/Israel will form a block to push Zionism through in the ME, naturally against the wishes of the local Muslims, and equally naturally under the cloak of GWoT. Recently Germany's Merkel kissed Zionist butt too.

In the meantime Russia and China are growing increasingly close, pushed together by western belligerence. Looks like the line is being drawn for who will be on which side for WWIII. Not that it will matter much in the end.

We have been hearing this line about the Jews taking over the ME for decades. When is it going to happen already?

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I don't know enough about him or France but if people there are legitimately happy with him (I'm sure many aren't, but you get my point), then that's a good thing probably.

BTW, surrender jokes are funny, but it's a shame that Americans who sat and watched for two years while Europe was plundered can be so critical of what France did and remain uncritical of what America didn't.

Why should Americans die to protect the imperialist territories of the British Empire, sorry but that was the sentiment in the US at the time. Also, France and Britain created Hitler by imposing such ridiculous sanctions on Germany after WWI, which Woodrow Wilson opposed BTW.

So from our perspective at the time it wasn't our business, we had our own problems and isolationism was the driving force in our politics.

So honestly, let's get our facts straight here.

 

[Vonkhan]

The ME gets the Chinese and the Russians as allies

and we get ... the French?

W T F ? ! ! ! :| this game has balancing issues

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Vonkhan
The ME gets the Chinese and the Russians as allies

and we get ... the French?

W T F ? ! ! ! :| this game has balancing issues

Hahahahaha. 10/10.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Vonkhan
The ME gets the Chinese and the Russians as allies

and we get ... the French?

W T F ? ! ! ! :| this game has balancing issues

It will be ok, just need to convince the french to retreat into the enemy.

 

[manowar821]

Sarkozy is just another wannabe despot, like our pig in a suit president.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Zenoth
Me ? no aphorisms or subtle messages needed here, I wasn't born in 1940.

If you mean the incompetent government back then and not "me" (as in *all* French people), then I will agree, agree that they didn't do much in their power to help the cause that the rest of the non-Axis powers were fighting for. But go back in time and go tell that in person to Marshal Pétin instead and the Vichy "government" instead. Those were the traitors, and thanks to his old age, Marshal Pétin escaped the death penalty for High Treason. And go back in time and ask the Free French Forces what their thought of their country and their rulers back then ...

No need to let me know the French back in the '40's weren't "part of the world" except for their oh so mighty military that served no other purposes but to drain the economic resources of the nation (the Maginot Line's cost to the nation had to be paid up until the '60's, if I'm not wrong). No need for anything like such a dark moment in our history to repeat itself.

I lived and worked in France for a number of years, was married to French women.

I think the French take a bit to much critism for events in WWII.

Every French family I ever met had a member who part of the resistance and most were killed for it. The French people themselves did demonstrate courage.

The gov should recieve some credit for avoiding the destruction of Paris, something I didn't understand until I lived in the city for about 6 years.

But more to current events, it's nice to see the "thaw" between our governments; our are natural allies. I even heard that GWB spoke French to Sarkozy. That might sound inconsequential to some, but I think otherwise.

Fern

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Zenoth
Me ? no aphorisms or subtle messages needed here, I wasn't born in 1940.

If you mean the incompetent government back then and not "me" (as in *all* French people), then I will agree, agree that they didn't do much in their power to help the cause that the rest of the non-Axis powers were fighting for. But go back in time and go tell that in person to Marshal Pétin instead and the Vichy "government" instead. Those were the traitors, and thanks to his old age, Marshal Pétin escaped the death penalty for High Treason. And go back in time and ask the Free French Forces what their thought of their country and their rulers back then ...

No need to let me know the French back in the '40's weren't "part of the world" except for their oh so mighty military that served no other purposes but to drain the economic resources of the nation (the Maginot Line's cost to the nation had to be paid up until the '60's, if I'm not wrong). No need for anything like such a dark moment in our history to repeat itself.

I lived and worked in France for a number of years, was married to French women.

I think the French take a bit to much critism for events in WWII.

Every French family I ever met had a member who part of the resistance and most were killed for it. The French people themselves did demonstrate courage.

The gov should recieve some credit for avoiding the destruction of Paris, something I didn't understand until I lived in the city for about 6 years.

But more to current events, it's nice to see the "thaw" between our governments; our are natural allies. I even heard that GWB spoke French to Sarkozy. That might sound inconsequential to some, but I think otherwise.

Fern

Of course they were. France is a beautiful country. I'd like to live there one day.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: manowar821
Sarkozy is just another wannabe despot, like our pig in a suit president.

Wow.

 

[Vonkhan]

Originally posted by: Fern I even heard that GWB spoke French to Sarkozy. That might sound inconsequential to some, but I think otherwise.

Fern

Given his command of the English language ... o good lord, that explains Sarkozy's perma-grin

But, jokes aside, I think this is good - we need more allies in Europe and France would be a natural choice.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Zenoth
Me ? no aphorisms or subtle messages needed here, I wasn't born in 1940.

If you mean the incompetent government back then and not "me" (as in *all* French people), then I will agree, agree that they didn't do much in their power to help the cause that the rest of the non-Axis powers were fighting for. But go back in time and go tell that in person to Marshal Pétin instead and the Vichy "government" instead. Those were the traitors, and thanks to his old age, Marshal Pétin escaped the death penalty for High Treason. And go back in time and ask the Free French Forces what their thought of their country and their rulers back then ...

No need to let me know the French back in the '40's weren't "part of the world" except for their oh so mighty military that served no other purposes but to drain the economic resources of the nation (the Maginot Line's cost to the nation had to be paid up until the '60's, if I'm not wrong). No need for anything like such a dark moment in our history to repeat itself.

I lived and worked in France for a number of years, was married to French women.

I think the French take a bit to much critism for events in WWII.

Every French family I ever met had a member who part of the resistance and most were killed for it. The French people themselves did demonstrate courage.

The gov should recieve some credit for avoiding the destruction of Paris, something I didn't understand until I lived in the city for about 6 years.

But more to current events, it's nice to see the "thaw" between our governments; our are natural allies. I even heard that GWB spoke French to Sarkozy. That might sound inconsequential to some, but I think otherwise.

Fern

Of course they were. France is a beautiful country. I'd like to live there one day.

I agree. My trips there have always left me impressed by their access to fully automatic weapons. :thumbsup: They definitely have some of the most sensible (minimalist) gun control in Europe.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Zenoth
Me ? no aphorisms or subtle messages needed here, I wasn't born in 1940.

If you mean the incompetent government back then and not "me" (as in *all* French people), then I will agree, agree that they didn't do much in their power to help the cause that the rest of the non-Axis powers were fighting for. But go back in time and go tell that in person to Marshal Pétin instead and the Vichy "government" instead. Those were the traitors, and thanks to his old age, Marshal Pétin escaped the death penalty for High Treason. And go back in time and ask the Free French Forces what their thought of their country and their rulers back then ...

No need to let me know the French back in the '40's weren't "part of the world" except for their oh so mighty military that served no other purposes but to drain the economic resources of the nation (the Maginot Line's cost to the nation had to be paid up until the '60's, if I'm not wrong). No need for anything like such a dark moment in our history to repeat itself.

I lived and worked in France for a number of years, was married to French women.

I think the French take a bit to much critism for events in WWII.

Every French family I ever met had a member who part of the resistance and most were killed for it. The French people themselves did demonstrate courage.

The gov should recieve some credit for avoiding the destruction of Paris, something I didn't understand until I lived in the city for about 6 years.

But more to current events, it's nice to see the "thaw" between our governments; our are natural allies. I even heard that GWB spoke French to Sarkozy. That might sound inconsequential to some, but I think otherwise.

Fern

Of course they were. France is a beautiful country. I'd like to live there one day.

I agree. My trips there have always left me impressed by their access to fully automatic weapons. :thumbsup: They definitely have some of the most sensible (minimalist) gun control in Europe.

only a 'gun nut' would go to france and only come away with being impressed only by the gun laws (or lack thereof)

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Zenoth
Me ? no aphorisms or subtle messages needed here, I wasn't born in 1940.

If you mean the incompetent government back then and not "me" (as in *all* French people), then I will agree, agree that they didn't do much in their power to help the cause that the rest of the non-Axis powers were fighting for. But go back in time and go tell that in person to Marshal Pétin instead and the Vichy "government" instead. Those were the traitors, and thanks to his old age, Marshal Pétin escaped the death penalty for High Treason. And go back in time and ask the Free French Forces what their thought of their country and their rulers back then ...

No need to let me know the French back in the '40's weren't "part of the world" except for their oh so mighty military that served no other purposes but to drain the economic resources of the nation (the Maginot Line's cost to the nation had to be paid up until the '60's, if I'm not wrong). No need for anything like such a dark moment in our history to repeat itself.

I lived and worked in France for a number of years, was married to French women.

I think the French take a bit to much critism for events in WWII.

Every French family I ever met had a member who part of the resistance and most were killed for it. The French people themselves did demonstrate courage.

The gov should recieve some credit for avoiding the destruction of Paris, something I didn't understand until I lived in the city for about 6 years.

But more to current events, it's nice to see the "thaw" between our governments; our are natural allies. I even heard that GWB spoke French to Sarkozy. That might sound inconsequential to some, but I think otherwise.

Fern

Of course they were. France is a beautiful country. I'd like to live there one day.

I agree. My trips there have always left me impressed by their access to fully automatic weapons. :thumbsup: They definitely have some of the most sensible (minimalist) gun control in Europe.

In life, when you go this way (<-----), I'll make sure to go this way (----->).