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Today's retard that we're all supposed to feel sorry for

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Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,148
1
76
Our system does not work.

Period.

As for feeling sorry for this guy? Well I do. Does that mean I feel he does not DESERVE what he got by planning irresponsibly? No... to a degree.

What needs to be looked at here is just like any other financial risk. The government needs to look at the possible (realistic) expense it will incur if it has to pay welfare to keep this guy alive.

Try a few possible scenarios.

1. He does not pay the debt. The only thing they can do, if he has no connections to anything or anybody of value, would be to put him in jail. Great, so now we pay $30K-$50K to keep him in jail because he owes $148K. in 3 years we have just paid off his debt, but he STILL owes the lender, has a record (making it hard to find employment) and no credit to build off of 9getting a car to get to work, or a place to live).

The best solution would be to find a way that the most debt can be recovered at the least cost. That is not what our current system does and it is a waste of money in more ways than one.
 

radhak

Senior member
Aug 10, 2011
843
14
81
So beating up on a victim is fashionable now?

The guy is conned by the college (proven - they lost a suit for $40 million), then he was conned by the bank ("...a 19% variable interest rate – nearly triple the capped interest rate on federal unsubsidized loans"), and yet he's offered no relief (as if bankruptcy is any big relief) in the interest of the larger principle that banks need more help from our lawmakers.

He did not take $142,000 in loans. That's what they became because of his being victim to the above mentioned cons - he could not get a job, he could not pay, and he became disabled.

If he does not deserve sympathy, I dunno many others who do.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
Yeah, everybody is a victim... :rolleyes:

The word victim is going to become completely meaningless, the way it's abused. You could say it's a... victim?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,848
1
0
From this I don't get that we should feel too sorry for the kid, although it is a great sign that we should sharply reduce or eliminate any federal support for for profit colleges. They are a scam.

Furthermore, the idea that student debt can never be discharged in bankruptcy is totally ridiculous, yet another horrible feature of that 2005 bankruptcy bill. This shows how screwed up our student loan system is.
There's no question we should stop the funding of these bogus for-profit schools. That's obvious step #1.

Being able to completely discharge student loans seems odd when it's the government giving the loans at competitive rates to begin with. There are less extreme measures we can try first. Lower interests rates, maybe to almost 0%. For a lot of these extreme cases it seems more useful to have an exemption until you net a certain amount of income. If you're working as a waiter, your monthly payment shouldn't be above a certain amount. But I wouldn't support a complete discharge. These people borrowed from the US taxpayer.
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,148
1
76
Again, it all boils down to what would cost the least in the long run.

ALL OF OUR CURRENT SYSTEMS ARE GEARED FOR IMMEDIATE COMPENSATION.

the government is getting almost as bad as big business (quarterly statements).
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
There's no question we should stop the funding of these bogus for-profit schools. That's obvious step #1.

Being able to completely discharge student loans seems odd when it's the government giving the loans at competitive rates to begin with. There are less extreme measures we can try first. Lower interests rates, maybe to almost 0%. For a lot of these extreme cases it seems more useful to have an exemption until you net a certain amount of income. If you're working as a waiter, your monthly payment shouldn't be above a certain amount. But I wouldn't support a complete discharge. These people borrowed from the US taxpayer.
So if one's aspirations are no more than to be a waiter their entire life, there's absolutely no reason not to go to school for as long as one possibly can, party and booze it up with the best of them, and pay a few dollars a month forever? Sounds like a good way to subsidize an extension of childhood.

If a system can be gamed, it will be gamed.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
So if one's aspirations are no more than to be a waiter their entire life, there's absolutely no reason not to go to school for as long as one possibly can, party and booze it up with the best of them, and pay a few dollars a month forever? Sounds like a good way to subsidize an extension of childhood.

If a system can be gamed, it will be gamed.
And as a result, we have the left calling for an end to for-profit colleges, forgiveness of student loan debt (aka responsible taxpayers pay for the morons to party for a decade), and free college. Woo hoo! The answer to a government-caused problem is, as always, more government - and of course the abolition of government's private sector competition.

If President Obama gets his way, this idiot can get a federal government job slinging hash and have his $142,000 debt forgiven. 'Cause the ants owe the grasshoppers.

That said, I think variable interest rates loans need to be outlawed. Unfortunately we as a nation have become too stupid to handle them, and as we sink further into the smothering comfort of the nanny state, we aren't going to get any brighter.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
werepossum, don't forget quotas on majors. We'll only allow a certain number of people to receive an education, because we want to make sure we never have unused degrees. That will never cause further social stratification!

As you said, the answer to government problems is always, inconceivably, more government.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,848
1
0
So if one's aspirations are no more than to be a waiter their entire life, there's absolutely no reason not to go to school for as long as one possibly can, party and booze it up with the best of them, and pay a few dollars a month forever? Sounds like a good way to subsidize an extension of childhood.

If a system can be gamed, it will be gamed.
If all you wanted to be is a waiter, why would you waste time going to school in the first place? Nobody would do that. The options are never forgive anything and not get paid anyway (this guy is now homeless), have some middle-ground or forgive completely which is what eskimo is talking about.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
If all you wanted to be is a waiter, why would you waste time going to school in the first place? Nobody would do that.
Are you looking for something more insightful than sex and booze?

Why WOULDN'T you do that if it were available for free? Let's see, go right to work in some crappy job, or go party for a few years and let the government pick up the tab...

:hmm:
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,284
2
76
They can't because of this bill in 2005: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_and_Consumer_Protection_Act

To me, this is a terrible idea. Yes, the kid made a mistake, but I see no benefit in having people who make such mistakes saddled with debts that they cannot repay for the rest of their lives. This is exactly the sort of thing that bankruptcy was created for, to give people who screw up another opportunity to be productive.
Agree.

That student loan debt would rise signficatnly as a result of the debt becomeing non discharagebale should not have been a surprise.

Let kids discharge the debt if needed and I bet student loans come down as well as tuition prices.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,698
138
106
It is simple, cut the interest rate to zero, setup some sort of payment plan that can be handled. Then the bank makes money, and it will eventually be paid off or close to it. These situations are just stupid. This person clearly has no chance to pay what he is expected to.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
werepossum, don't forget quotas on majors. We'll only allow a certain number of people to receive an education, because we want to make sure we never have unused degrees. That will never cause further social stratification!

As you said, the answer to government problems is always, inconceivably, more government.
Well, once doctors and engineers are all government employees and compensated "fairly" (i.e. at the same rate as everyone else), it won't cause further social stratification.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,999
2
81
To make matters worse, he voluntarily took out a variable rate student loan that now stands at 19% interest!
lol wtf. I'm using 5% as the interest rate in my pre-mortgage projections because 5% is a "high" rate. The one I'm pre-approved for is 3.8%. The one my brother has for his mortgage is 2.4%
This guy's debt is roughly the same as what I'm planning to step into, but his interest rate is equivalent to that of a credit card.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,453
4
81
Four years of high school is about 95% repeat after me "do everything you can to go to college"
Everything you do and hear and learn in HS from your teachers, friends, families, government, tv, media is "Go to College, Get a degree, Go to College".
We are brainwashing people. No surprise there are predatory lending groups just sitting there ready to snatch up the idiots who have no purpose going to college. Scratch that. ready to snatch up fucking everyone.
My brother got roped into it. He was out of HS 3 years and had a stable regular job as an apprentice mason and after a shitty cold winter working outside busting his balls but making good money he finally got hooked lined and sinkered into going to "college".
Right around when that fell through the economy took a shit and he resorted to scrapping metal and burning his doors for heat in his house.
Luckily he got into the Army and he has been doing wonders there.

Fuck Colleges and fuck lenders. And fuck our society. Quit fucking with impressionable college kid's minds.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,708
9
81
Agree.

That student loan debt would rise signficatnly as a result of the debt becomeing non discharagebale should not have been a surprise.

Let kids discharge the debt if needed and I bet student loans come down as well as tuition prices.
It would certainly force the banks to incorporate that risk into their lending practices.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
71,491
21,479
136
Are you looking for something more insightful than sex and booze?

Why WOULDN'T you do that if it were available for free? Let's see, go right to work in some crappy job, or go party for a few years and let the government pick up the tab...

:hmm:
What is all this about free? The idea that student loans should never be dischargable is an obviously stupid idea.

Everyone accepts that they need to be treated differently due to their availability and lack of a tie to concrete assets, but our current system is not a solution. One of bankruptcy's primary purposes is to allow those who have made poor investments a vehicle by which to divest themselves of them and re-enter the economy as productive citizens. This principle is every bit as valid with student debt as any other.

Perpetual debt slavery is not only is it bad for the student, it's bad for our society.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
How then are you going to protect the lender when the 18 through 23 year old takes on lots of debt, can't pay it off (or, won't pay it off), and then goes, Hey, I can get out of all this debt by just declaring BK! ?

They won't have any real assets, they're already years away from having to buy a house/condo, so taking the credit hit is not going to be a big deal, especially in light of their circumstances.

How will the lender be protected?
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,999
2
81
It would certainly force the banks to incorporate that risk into their lending practices.
This.
All of society is damaged when the nanny state steps in to make every loan risk-free. That's exactly what caused the sub-prime lending problem. The loan is insured so there's nothing to lose by lending money that will never be paid! weeee!!!!

It's worth noting that Canada still has the old style bankruptcy laws. The result? They do credit checks, and you'll probably need the loan co-signed by someone who has good credit. Usually that means your parents co-sign the loan. Instead of the risk being placed solely on the lender, the risk is on the parents. If that loan doesn't get paid, they could lose their house, their cars, their retirement funds, etc. As a result, Canada doesn't have many private universities. There's no demand for it. If your parents think that a $40,000 loan to be a chef is fucking retarded, that's where the idea stops.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,840
3,636
126
The thing I hate about people who have no sympathy for others is that it makes me want to have no sympathy for them even though they can't help having no sympathy for other because nobody had any sympathy for them.

I always wonder how all the bitter people in the world that got live shoved up their asses and turned bitter would have turned out if somebody had sympathy for them.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
Trying to take a rational look at this.

I stand by my general lack of sympathy for someone who makes abysmally bad choices.

That said -- it is pretty clear from the story that this guy was deceived. And I think the de facto loan sharking is a problem that needs to be tackled.

The larger issue is a system that does a poor job of educating students about the job market and the impact of their decisions. We tell kids to "follow their muse" without paying proper attention to whether it makes sense from a financial standpoint.

The inability to discharge student loans in bankruptcy is there because of how easy it is to abuse the bankruptcy process when you graduate school with no responsibilities and a negative net worth. That said, there should be better systems in place to help those who really cannot get back on their feet.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
This is a very good way of looking at it. Clearly student debt is not the same as other debt in that there is reduced incentive to pay it back after you have the degree, but creating lifelong debt slaves is so obviously not the answer that it simply baffles me.
Colleges are not as free as you think. Once a student is accepted and can pay a colleges can (and are) sued if they deny them. My wife has a student who proved completely inadequate and they can't get rid of er.
 
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