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Today's retard that we're all supposed to feel sorry for

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,310
175
106
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SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,038
20
81
We're supposed to be feel bad because he DID get taken advantage of.

Look, young adults will make bad decisions when given the opportunity.

The problem with current higher education and financing, is that its hurting MOST young adults. You can't commercialize education like we've done and expect it to benefit society. We're all hurting from it. Huge amounts of debt for a degree that overall isn't that great, and all it does is get you in the door for some entry level job that hundreds of other people local to you are also applying for.

If we want our society as a whole to benefit from higher education, then we need to do something more than just blame the kids for it and/or bail them out at some point. Education needs to match what jobs there, what jobs there will be. Education needs to be inexpensive. It needs to promote critical thinking skills and increase aptitude. There also needs to be higher standards for letting kids into colleges - and if those standards aren't met, then those kids need some kind of supplemental education to catch them up.

In my opinion most of the education out there right now is a big capitalistic scam.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
71,491
21,479
136
From this I don't get that we should feel too sorry for the kid, although it is a great sign that we should sharply reduce or eliminate any federal support for for profit colleges. They are a scam.

Furthermore, the idea that student debt can never be discharged in bankruptcy is totally ridiculous, yet another horrible feature of that 2005 bankruptcy bill. This shows how screwed up our student loan system is.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,670
6
0
When you pay more for a Culinary Academy education then I did for Bachelor's in Computer Engineering... that makes you an idiot.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,086
493
126
I dont understand why privately issued student loans arent able to be discharged in bankruptcy court.

I do and dont feel bad for this guy. I feel bad for him because he will never pay off the loan and instead will be a ward of the state. I dont feel bad for him because he made some seriously stupid decisions.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,310
175
106
We're supposed to be feel bad because he DID get taken advantage of.

Look, young adults will make bad decisions when given the opportunity.
He graduated from culinary school at age 28. Had he been 18, maybe I could muster a bit of empathy because of youthful naivety, but at nearly 30 years of age he should have known better and even admits he did know better as he talks about how things didn't feel right while touring the school.

To make matters worse, he voluntarily took out a variable rate student loan that now stands at 19% interest!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
71,491
21,479
136
I dont understand why privately issued student loans arent able to be discharged in bankruptcy court.

I do and dont feel bad for this guy. I feel bad for him because he will never pay off the loan and instead will be a ward of the state. I dont feel bad for him because he made some seriously stupid decisions.
They can't because of this bill in 2005: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_and_Consumer_Protection_Act

To me, this is a terrible idea. Yes, the kid made a mistake, but I see no benefit in having people who make such mistakes saddled with debts that they cannot repay for the rest of their lives. This is exactly the sort of thing that bankruptcy was created for, to give people who screw up another opportunity to be productive.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,324
4
0
We're supposed to be feel bad because he DID get taken advantage of.

Look, young adults will make bad decisions when given the opportunity.

The problem with current higher education and financing, is that its hurting MOST young adults. You can't commercialize education like we've done and expect it to benefit society. We're all hurting from it. Huge amounts of debt for a degree that overall isn't that great, and all it does is get you in the door for some entry level job that hundreds of other people local to you are also applying for.

If we want our society as a whole to benefit from higher education, then we need to do something more than just blame the kids for it and/or bail them out at some point. Education needs to match what jobs there, what jobs there will be. Education needs to be inexpensive. It needs to promote critical thinking skills and increase aptitude. There also needs to be higher standards for letting kids into colleges - and if those standards aren't met, then those kids need some kind of supplemental education to catch them up.

In my opinion most of the education out there right now is a big capitalistic scam.

But, where does that start? Most schools are non-profit, right, though the have huge endowment funds. However, there is a reason why college costs continue to increase 8-10% annually and it's not the endowment. It's the pay increases to get in talented professors, tons of administration personnel, the swanky digs that colleges are building and the millions being put into programs that don't earn any or enough revenue.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,583
431
126
He used $2,500 in hotel stays? Are roommates that hard to come by?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,670
6
0
I dont understand why privately issued student loans arent able to be discharged in bankruptcy court.

I do and dont feel bad for this guy. I feel bad for him because he will never pay off the loan and instead will be a ward of the state. I dont feel bad for him because he made some seriously stupid decisions.
Because if you could the smart thing to do would be to run up as much debt as possible in college and then declare bankruptcy as soon as you graduated.

Which means there would be no private student loan market.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
71,491
21,479
136
Because if you could the smart thing to do would be to run up as much debt as possible in college and then declare bankruptcy as soon as you graduated.

Which means there would be no private student loan market.
I was unaware that there was no private student loan market before their ability to be discharged under bankruptcy was removed in 2005. This is also news to a great number of banks and individuals that had them. Does this mean they don't have to pay them back because they didn't exist?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,086
493
126
Because if you could the smart thing to do would be to run up as much debt as possible in college and then declare bankruptcy as soon as you graduated.

Which means there would be no private student loan market.
You could theoretically do this with credit cards. Why didnt more people do this before the law was passed? For me I can see the value in protecting the tax payers money in a student loan arrangement not being discharged through bankruptcy. But for privately issued loans? That is a risk private banks need to deal with and not have the govt protecting them while railroading people for their entire life. If they cant discharge it through chapter 7, they should at the very least be able to have the ability to remedy the situation via chapter 13.
 
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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,261
68
86
Because if you could the smart thing to do would be to run up as much debt as possible in college and then declare bankruptcy as soon as you graduated.

Which means there would be no private student loan market.
This is why the gov't change it to begin with. Lawyers/doctors were racking up big bills and then discharging.

However, something needs to be done with the situation. The current equation is massively asymmetrical. Lenders take only risk like this guy, but they create virtual debt slaves. Borrowers can be ruined for life. Nobody underwrites to the major at this point and credit fundamentals have gone out the door, if you apply you get the loan regardless of your ability to pay it back.

I would go as far as to say that the loans are dischargeable provided that your inability to repay in 30 years, based upon average wages in your industry, is NPV'd and proven. Bankruptcy trustees and judges should have the ability to make such a rudimentary analysis.

You'd see a very quick adjustment and elimination of these types of scams.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,912
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Repost/merged

Fern
Super Moderator


5-31-2012

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/this-bright-eyed-young-man-was-utterly-demolished-by-student-loans.html

Man Demolished by Student Loans

Even as total outstanding student debt rises to $1 trillion, lawmakers have yet to allow loans to be discharged in bankruptcy.

Without an escape clause, these loans can strangle a person.

Take 36-year-old Nick Keith, who remains $142,000 in debt eight years after graduating from culinary school. He's featured in a new film, "Default: The Student Loan Documentary"

"I want to educate the public about the facts," Keith said. "My life has become a daily swim in a tar pit with very little hope of ever getting out."

Keith took out $46,000 in private loans

He then took out another $14,000 in federal loans to cover his rent, since the school's fees didn't include room and board.

He was also paying a 19% variable interest rate – nearly triple the capped interest rate on federal unsubsidized loans.

"I spoke to (private loan issuer) Sallie Mae. I wrote to Sallie Mae. But Sallie Mae would not refinance my debt with a reasonable interest rate or reasonable payments," he says.

"I could not afford to make a student loan payment because my choice each month was to either pay my rent or make a student loan payment."

Sallie Mae's best offer? A $50 to $100 reduction in his monthly payments.

Keith sought advice from a bankruptcy attorney as well as a couple of CPAs on how to handle his loans. Both gave him the same advice: Stop paying.

Nearly a decade since he took out the original loan, his balance has ballooned to $142,000

"I get groceries at the local food bank," he said. "I have sold or lost 99 percent of everything I ever owned."
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
5-31-2012
Even as total outstanding student debt rises to $1 trillion, lawmakers have yet to allow loans to be discharged in bankruptcy.
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
I'm sure everyone on here will say everything is the guy's fault.

Stupid American, how dare he think a College education would get him far.

It has gotten him far alright.
A college education is one thing...

Going $142k in debt for a culinary degree is poor logic on his part.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,304
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Take 36-year-old Nick Keith, who remains $142,000 in debt eight years after graduating from culinary school.
I'm sure everyone on here will say everything is the guy's fault.

Stupid American, how dare he think a College education would get him far.
$142,000 to become a chef??? How the fuck did he think he would make the necessary monies to repay this loan? Did he think that this education would guarantee that he would be the next Wolfgang Puck or Bobby Flay?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
71,491
21,479
136
This is why the gov't change it to begin with. Lawyers/doctors were racking up big bills and then discharging.

However, something needs to be done with the situation. The current equation is massively asymmetrical. Lenders take only risk like this guy, but they create virtual debt slaves. Borrowers can be ruined for life. Nobody underwrites to the major at this point and credit fundamentals have gone out the door, if you apply you get the loan regardless of your ability to pay it back.

I would go as far as to say that the loans are dischargeable provided that your inability to repay in 30 years, based upon average wages in your industry, is NPV'd and proven. Bankruptcy trustees and judges should have the ability to make such a rudimentary analysis.

You'd see a very quick adjustment and elimination of these types of scams.
This is a very good way of looking at it. Clearly student debt is not the same as other debt in that there is reduced incentive to pay it back after you have the degree, but creating lifelong debt slaves is so obviously not the answer that it simply baffles me.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,670
6
0
You could theoretically do this with credit cards. Why didnt more people do this before the law was passed? For me I can see the value in protecting the tax payers money in a student loan arrangement not being discharged through bankruptcy. But for privately issued loans? That is a risk private banks need to deal with and not have the govt protecting them while railroading people for their entire life. If they cant discharge it through chapter 7, they should at the very least be able to have the ability to remedy the situation via chapter 13.
Which is probably why college students cannot get credit cards with $50,000 credit limits.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
A college education is one thing...

Going $142k in debt for a culinary degree is poor logic on his part.
When it comes to education, I agree here. People going into huge debt for certain jobs just doesn't make sense. 142K to be a chef is just crazy.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,670
6
0
When it comes to education, I agree here. People going into huge debt for certain jobs just doesn't make sense. 142K to be a chef is just crazy.
It sounded more like $46,000 to become a chef, which is still crazy, he could have probably gotten an Engineering degree for less and $14,000 for living expensese.

And then the last $82,000 for interest and fees for not paying.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
How the fuck did he think he would make the necessary monies to repay this loan?
Like most people who go deeply into debt, he didn't think about it at all. He just wanted something, so he borrowed the money to buy it. If he couldn't pay it back, well, then he'd just make it someone else's problem.

And if we let these selfish, clueless people off the hook, guess what will happen? A lot more of the same behavior.
 

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