Today is Somme anniversary. :(

[SaltyNuts]

What a coincidence, I was doing some research on the Somme and just happened to come across the fact that today is its anniversary. Over 570000 British casualties in ONE DAY. Today, July 1.

What the HECK were these generals thinking in WWI anyways? In my research, it is clear that the artillery alone was tearing up the German lines. It would kill Germans, then they would have to bring up more men to man the trenches, then the artillery would kill more, over and over. Give that the Allied powers had much more artillery than the central powers, and could produce more faster and, most importantly, far out produce Germany in ammunition for the big guns, why did the Allies not just set up an everlasting artillery barrage to grind down the German manpower over time? Maybe it couldn't do it 24/7 around the clock on all parts of the line, but over time the scales will certainly tip in your favor given your production advantage.

Why send thousands of men over the top to their almost certain deaths in the face of machine gun and rifle fire from enemy trenches? It seems after the first time your men got mowed down you would have the sense to say, "Nope, not doing that again." My lord I wish I had been around back then to talk some sense into those fools. Thousands and thousands died unnecessarily.

 

[KMFJD]

That whole war was insane and in many ways it's very difficult for us to comprehend the number of casualties , Dan Carlin has an excellent podcast called Blueprint for Armageddon about world war 1 if you have a couple of hours

The Great War Channel on youtube is also pretty good and does a week by week account of the war

 

[SKORPI0]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Somme

Pics to put it into perspective.
http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/the-battle-of-the-somme-in-pictures-1916/

 

[WelshBloke]

IIRC it was because the artillery wasn't as effective as expected that the push didn't go to plan.

 

[_Rick_]

Having now been to two somehwat preserved battlefields of WW1 (Kobarid on the Italian Isonzo front and Hartmannswillerkopf, among others, in the Vosges), the scale of battles of that era is still deeply unsettling. Even seeing the trenches and reading the plaques, it's near impossible to imagine how over just a few months tens of thousands of people died on fronts that were sometimes only a few hundred meters long and deep...

 

[SaltyNuts]

IIRC it was because the artillery wasn't as effective as expected that the push didn't go to plan.

Well, yea, that was part of it. The British apparently were using shrapnel shells designed for killing troops, and were not very effective penetrating the deep German dugouts. So obviously get some of those deep penetrating rounds up to the front stat! But still, why send the troops over the top to their massacre? The Brits/French probably lost over 600,000 in battle, the vast, vast majority of these coming from troops going over the top. The Germans lost the vast majority of these from artillery fire. So just keep the artillery firing, night and day. Bleed the German's dry. Heck, if you wanted to make progress on the ground to "feel good", have your troops just slowly dig their trenches forward. But never, EVER has some stupid decision where you send your troops into no-man's land so they can be massacred.

What would the casualty figure have been had there been no over the tops by the allies? Like 500,000 German dead to, say 1,000 allied dead? THAT is how to bleed your enemy dry, not trying to do so by also bleeding yourself dry.

 

[KMFJD]

Well, yea, that was part of it. The British apparently were using shrapnel shells designed for killing troops, and were not very effective penetrating the deep German dugouts. So obviously get some of those deep penetrating rounds up to the front stat! But still, why send the troops over the top to their massacre? The Brits/French probably lost over 600,000 in battle, the vast, vast majority of these coming from troops going over the top. The Germans lost the vast majority of these from artillery fire. So just keep the artillery firing, night and day. Bleed the German's dry. Heck, if you wanted to make progress on the ground to "feel good", have your troops just slowly dig their trenches forward. But never, EVER has some stupid decision where you send your troops into no-man's land so they can be massacred.

What would the casualty figure have been had there been no over the tops by the allies? Like 500,000 German dead to, say 1,000 allied dead? THAT is how to bleed your enemy dry, not trying to do so by also bleeding yourself dry.

The problem was that the British Artillery didn't get rid of all the barbwire....it took another year before they perfect the creeping barrage to give the troops cover during an attack, once they got good at that they where able to make gains (albeit at a terrible cost). The vast majority of combat casualties came from artillery fire during WW1 and the Germans had very good artillery, at the start of the war these poor guys where still using cloth caps and no helmets and thought a bayonet charge was a good tactic vs dug in maxim machine guns, it was a slaughter. I believe the French lost over 27,000 men in ONE day at the start of the war using these old strategies. Anyways if they hadn't of started the Somme offensive when they did then the French would have been bleed white trying to retake Verdun, i believe the Russians also started an offensive at the same to to try and relieve the pressure on the French at Verdun.

 

[SaltyNuts]

Yep KMFJD, not getting rid of the barbed wire was one part of the problem with British use of shrapnel artillery rather than the HE and stuff the French used. The French artillery got rid of the barbed wire much better.

Agreed also about the Germans having good artillery at the start of the war, maybe better than the Allies overall at that time (the Germans had more higher caliber/heaver artillery I believe). But that soon changed with Allied production advantages. By the time of the Somme the allies had more/better artillery, and the difference was only growing day by day. German batteries would often have to remain silent until an attack came to avoid getting themselves quickly annihilated by allied counter-battery fire.

"Anyways if they hadn't of started the Somme offensive when they did then the French would have been bleed white trying to retake Verdun, i believe the Russians also started an offensive at the same to to try and relieve the pressure on the French at Verdun."

I believe you are falling into the very trap the generals of the day did. Start an offensive, where you will get slaughtered, to relieve pressure on defensive positions elsewhere? Retake Verdun? No, don't even TOUCH either of those options. If the Germans were pushing at Verdun, and you couldn't contain them in the first line, fall back into new trenches a few thousand yards back. Keep the artillery rolling the whole time. Make the Germans lose 500,000 troops for every mile they take, see how long their army can remain combat worthy. It is interesting to note that the Germans, having designed the Verdun battle to attempt cause the French to bleed themselves white, themselves bleed themselves white BECAUSE ATTACKING WAS NUTS given that breakthrough technologies had not been invented yet (or, at least, were not available in anything close to the numbers needed for a true breakthrough (i.e. tanks)). Just a bunch of completely unnecessary slaughter. I can't imagine how people of the time fell for it (generals) or put up with it (the public, and anyone with a brain who could see the folly).

 

[Darwin333]

You got an extra zero in your number there bud.

 

[KMFJD]

Yep KMFJD, not getting rid of the barbed wire was one part of the problem with British use of shrapnel artillery rather than the HE and stuff the French used. The French artillery got rid of the barbed wire much better.

Agreed also about the Germans having good artillery at the start of the war, maybe better than the Allies overall at that time (the Germans had more higher caliber/heaver artillery I believe). But that soon changed with Allied production advantages. By the time of the Somme the allies had more/better artillery, and the difference was only growing day by day. German batteries would often have to remain silent until an attack came to avoid getting themselves quickly annihilated by allied counter-battery fire.

"Anyways if they hadn't of started the Somme offensive when they did then the French would have been bleed white trying to retake Verdun, i believe the Russians also started an offensive at the same to to try and relieve the pressure on the French at Verdun."

I believe you are falling into the very trap the generals of the day did. Start an offensive, where you will get slaughtered, to relieve pressure on defensive positions elsewhere? Retake Verdun? No, don't even TOUCH either of those options. If the Germans were pushing at Verdun, and you couldn't contain them in the first line, fall back into new trenches a few thousand yards back. Keep the artillery rolling the whole time. Make the Germans lose 500,000 troops for every mile they take, see how long their army can remain combat worthy. It is interesting to note that the Germans, having designed the Verdun battle to attempt cause the French to bleed themselves white, themselves bleed themselves white BECAUSE ATTACKING WAS NUTS given that breakthrough technologies had not been invented yet (or, at least, were not available in anything close to the numbers needed for a true breakthrough (i.e. tanks)). Just a bunch of completely unnecessary slaughter. I can't imagine how people of the time fell for it (generals) or put up with it (the public, and anyone with a brain who could see the folly).

Yeah the Dan Carlin podcasts talk extensively about this, i agree that attacking was nut's but that was the only idea they had at the time. The Germans where already at the 3rd trench lines of the French before Petain ordered no more retreat. The French guns where horrible at the start of the war, their range was about 3km at the time while the Germans had a range more than double that.