Tobacco & Alcohol control

[Sir Fredrick]

Assumptions:
These products have hazardous health effects on the public, mostly when used excessively by individuals.
It may be difficult for individuals to stop using these products, even if they want to.
People have the right to use these products if they are of age and fully aware of the consequences.
These products may have some redeeming value to the people who are using them.
These products are more dangerous than most prescription medications and should at least receive a similar level of control.

Proposal:
A national "controlled substance ID card" could be issued to those who want to use these products. This card will be used much like a credit card, including a similar verification/"charge" process with a centralized database.
The card will have set limits, which could be daily, weekly, or monthly. The owner of the card can choose these limits when it is issued, up to a certain amount which is considered to be excessive and dangerous (this upper limit can be contested if you have a good reason for it).
You can also change these limits at any time (including bringing them down to 0 if you are trying to stop using them), with a 2-3 week delay for limit increases.

So here's how it works then:
Let's say you have a limit of 8packs/week for cigs, and 64 alcohol points/week with no more than 13 points/day (alcoholic beverages will have to be assigned points based on the actual % of alcohol in the beverage)
You go to the bar and buy a beer. They take your controlled substance ID card, slide it through the card reader, look at the picture and make sure it's you. When the reader displays an "ok" message (possibly showing how many credits you have left for the day), you get your beer.
Let's say that beer cost 8 points. Now you have 56 points left for the week, and 5 left for the day. In this example, you really haven't allowed yourself enough points/day to get drunk, which may have been your intention since you have to drive yourself home from the bar.

This leads to a problem for people who like to buy a case of beer instead of individual beverages one at a time. Cases and other closed containers can count against your weekly (or monthly) points without reducing your daily points, if need be.

I think this would help curb underage drinking (who's going to spend their points so underage friends can drink?), and keep most drinking in moderation, while allowing people to enjoy alcohol responsibly. It would also possibly reduce the number of drunk drivers on the road, as well as help alcoholics stay sober by preventing them from being able to purchase alcohol.

So, what do you guys think about this?

 

[Heisenberg]

No thanks. We live in America, remember? The government should keep its nose out of my business.

 

[pyonir]

no thanks. it takes a different amount of alcohol for different people to get drunk. it also depends on if you ate that day and if your weight fluctuates.

but, even if you could control that, it is like living in a un-democratic society. i have the right to drink when and as much as i like. same goes for cigarettes (even though i don't smoke).

 

[Russ]

GREAT IDEA! Let's also do it for Big Macs and Twinkies!

Russ, NCNE

 

[Vic]

With all due respect, please kindly take that card of yours and stuff it up your ....

 

[PsychoAndy]

wouldnt stop it. as long as there are enterprising individuals that would sell their points for some cash, it defeats the purpose of the system

 

[amnesiac]

*edited*
Sorry that was uncalled for. :|

There's way too many things wrong with this model.
1. It would be too expensive to implement
2. Getting all alcohol retailers to subscribe to this would be nearly impossible.
3. Tremendous resistance from alcohol / tobacco industry

---

How about you check that much hostility elsewhere before logging onto our forums?

AnandTech Moderator

 

[Kilgor]

How about Hamburger cards or Condom Cards maybe just one great big card that monitors everywhere I go and all I eat. How about we just send all the bad people to reeducation camps and teach them how to think right and not do bad things?

 

[MrDingleDangle]

eh no thank you...

and what about for group events...kegs and such...

the government has no right to tell me how much beer i can drink on my own time...

this is the most ridiculus idea i have ever heard

 

[Aceman]

Let's put controls the crack you obviously are smoking!!!!!!! Just what I need is a damn "rations" card for my vices!

 

[db]

When people are held responsible for their actions, things will change.
(That will be the day....not holding my breath).


<< possibly reduce the number of drunk drivers >>

 

[MrDingleDangle]

<< It would also possibly reduce the number of drunk drivers on the road, >>


what do u have to slide your card into your car before u start driving too?

 

[pyonir]

i like to buy a drink for my friends too....how would i do that with only a few points for a day? system would suck.

 

[Aceman]

And remember, we tried this before with alcohol. It was called Prohibition.

How are you going to ration Homebrewers? Trust me, I can propogate enough yeast off of what I have stashed to last me a lifetime. I can take grains and malt them if I need to.

Same thing goes for tobacoo. I'm sure if it came down to it, I can grow and dry enough to support my habit.

 

[Sir Fredrick]

Thanks for not ripping off my head guys, glad you realized it was just a suggestion. My goal was to start a reasonable dialog with innovative ideas about what could be done to help reduce the number of problems that we have involving Alcohol and Tobacco while still allowing people the maximum level of freedoms available.

For those who say that it's like the prohibition: No, it's not. You can still drink as much as you like up to a predefined limit, which should be very high.
Compared to banning alcohol altogether, there's a big difference.

About selling points: Yes, this could happen to some level, but it's not like you can transfer points to someone else's account. You have to be there to use the points.

Group events would be an issue, and I don't have a very good answer for that one yet.

This system is meant largely to be voluntary so that people can prevent themselves from drinking too much or smoking more than they want to by giving themselves point levels.
This would help people with alcohol problems, or those who are trying to quit smoking.

How would you feel about it if there were no upper limit to the number of points you could assign yourself? This would remove some of the benefit from my system proposal (people wouldn't be discouraged from buying alcohol for their underage friends), but would leave more freedoms intact.

 

[Sir Fredrick]

P.S. Please read my posts in their entirety before responding. Thanks.

 

[pyonir]

if it was voluntary, what is to stop someone that bought a card from not using the card and getting smashed? i mean you can't make everyone carry one, and you can't make the people that have one wear it around their neck. i just isn't feasible. if you make no limit on the number of points...what is the point of carrying the card???

 

[Jzero]

Pipe smokers don't smoke "A tin a week" or anything like that. And since we light up in the privacy of our homes, how can you regulate how many bowls we smoke per time period? Most pipe smokers buy tins of tobacco which, being hermetically sealed, hardly ever go bad. When you find a blend you like, you buy a bunch of it and keep it in your basement. Some blends (3 Nuns, e.g.) ferment and produce sugars as they age. Smokers bought them by the case and keep them in their cellars and guard them like gold.

How are you going to limit this with your little card?

 

[Sir Fredrick]

<< if it was voluntary, what is to stop someone that bought a card from not using the card and getting smashed? i mean you can't make everyone carry one, and you can't make the people that have one wear it around their neck. i just isn't feasible. if you make no limit on the number of points...what is the point of carrying the card??? >>



Voluntary as in you can choose the number of points. Everyone wishing to purchase alcohol must have the card. You can get it when you get your license or something...since you currently need a license or other similar photo ID to purchase alcohol anyway.

As I said previously, this would help people who are actively trying to quit smoking, battling an alcohol problem, or just trying to limit their smoking/drinking (i.e. a smoker trying to stay under 1pack/day). They could set limits for themselves even if most people would opt to have no limits.

 

[ripthesystem]

aceman,

YHPM

ripthesystem

 

[pyonir]

carrying my license and a credit card is a PITA enough...i wouldn't carry another card on top of that. i don't carry a wallet and therefore travel lightly....just sounds like adding more crap i have to carry for no reason (assuming i don't want to limit my points).

 

[Sir Fredrick]

<< Pipe smokers don't smoke "A tin a week" or anything like that. And since we light up in the privacy of our homes, how can you regulate how many bowls we smoke per time period? Most pipe smokers buy tins of tobacco which, being hermetically sealed, hardly ever go bad. When you find a blend you like, you buy a bunch of it and keep it in your basement. Some blends (3 Nuns, e.g.) ferment and produce sugars as they age. Smokers bought them by the case and keep them in their cellars and guard them like gold.

How are you going to limit this with your little card? >>



This is certainly a difficult area for using the card to regulate.
I would say that tobacco not in chew or cigarette form should probably not require a card, as they are less of an addictive problem.
That means that people who like to roll their own cigs would not be affected, and neither would pipe smokers, or possibly even cigar smokers.
Most of the people who do that are putting forth a greater effort to enjoy their tobacco and are less likely to be addicted simply because they started smoking when they were 13.

Those who wish to brew their own alcohol would also be unaffected, and it would certainly not be illegal to do so. It would only be illegal to sell it without a license, which I believe is the way things work now.

 

[Sir Fredrick]

<< carrying my license and a credit card is a PITA enough...i wouldn't carry another card on top of that. i don't carry a wallet and therefore travel lightly....just sounds like adding more crap i have to carry for no reason (assuming i don't want to limit my points). >>



Sorry, but that seems like a weak argument. Hey, I'd rather not have to carry my driver's license around with me when I'm driving, but it's illegal if I don't. Small price to pay for the ability to operate my vehicle.
If you don't enjoy tobacco or alcohol products enough to justify taking a card with you to the bar or the supermarket when you wish to purchase them, then maybe they're not worth the hasstle.

 

[Jzero]

it's an interesting concept
Also, how do you regulate kegs?
What if you want to throw a party? I'm feeling a "Pennsylvania Beer Run" coming on--in PA b/c of "Blue Laws" beer distributors are closed on sundays, but little restaurants can still sell takeout so everybody goes to the local pizza joint on Sunday and has to buy 2 6-packs.
Likewise, if you're having a party at the end of the month and you've about tossed all your points, now everybody has to like "pool" their points together to booze up the party....

the other concern I would have is that I am 100% certain that this would "mission creep"
First they're using it just to help people moderate.
Next thing you know when you apply for a job at a "non-smoking" company, they're looking up your "Vice Card" # and they see you don't have a zero-limit on cigs and they show you the door....

 

[Sir Fredrick]

<< it's an interesting concept
Also, how do you regulate kegs?
What if you want to throw a party? I'm feeling a "Pennsylvania Beer Run" coming on--in PA b/c of "Blue Laws" beer distributors are closed on sundays, but little restaurants can still sell takeout so everybody goes to the local pizza joint on Sunday and has to buy 2 6-packs.
Likewise, if you're having a party at the end of the month and you've about tossed all your points, now everybody has to like "pool" their points together to booze up the party.... >>



Good point. Any system based on set chunks of time is going to have such a problem, unless "party grade" alcohol (kegs) cost lest, or are able to borrow from future points. Partygoers might have to pool points, but this would help ensure that none were underage.



<< the other concern I would have is that I am 100% certain that this would "mission creep"
First they're using it just to help people moderate.
Next thing you know when you apply for a job at a "non-smoking" company, they're looking up your "Vice Card" # and they see you don't have a zero-limit on cigs and they show you the door.... >>



Yes, before any such controls could be implemented, there would have to be very strict rules as to how this information could be used. Access to the database should be highly limited, and it should only be recording the date and time at which a purchase was made, no location. Only establishments licensed to sell the controlled products would be able to have the card readers, and it would have to be specifically illegal for a person/business to do anything with the card not directly related to the sale of the alcoholic beverage or tobacco product. I am very much not interested in having a "big brother" system, but I recognize that these materials pose a public health risk and may be addictive. I think we should make it easier for people who wish to control their habit.