To what extent do we deserve the blame?

[GTaudiophile]

I mean, BP is only working its ass off to satisfy our addiction to oil. Sure, they deserve blame for cutting corners in their oversight, but to what extent, do we the buying public, deserve blame? Obviously, our appointed and paid public officials, the ones enjoying the hookers and blow instead of regulating, deserve a lot of the blame as well. (Remember those SEC workers who were caught enjoying hookers and blow during the midst of the financial crisis?)

I mean, a day doesn't go by when I don't see someone in their private (or government) vehicle idling their car for minutes on end without regard to their wastefulness and air pollution. The mentality is back in this country that cheap gas is here to stay and people are abusing it as such.

Do you all remember about two years ago when gas prices went up to $4-$5 per gallon? Well, my tinfoil hat tells me that the "powers that be" (US government, Big Oil, etc.) were testing to find out the "breaking point" at which Americans would start to vote with their wallets. And Americans did break. I recall reports on traffic decreasing on local highways, toll revenues down, public transit numbers way up, more people riding their bikes, food prices going up, etc. I even read/saw reports of smaller companies shifting manufacturing back to the United States from overseas as it became more cost effective than shipping. But perhaps best of all, I read/saw all sorts of stories about alternative fuels research. (I wish I could link to all these sources, but I am afraid they only exist in my memory to articles I either saw on TV or read online.)

Once the "powers that be" saw that the $4/$5 per gallon mark was the breaking point, prices rapidly reversed. (I know some argue that this was all just a "bubble" on the commodities market, but I believe there was something else behind it all.)

Anyway, where am I going with all this? I know I should turn in my "libertarian" card for this, but I believe we should have a $4/gallon gas tax on regular car gasoline and a $2/gallon gas tax on Diesel (truck) fuels. A $1/gallon tax would also be added to JET-A/A1 sales. 75% of all tax proceeds would go to paying down the national debt; 25% would go to a "Gulf Preservation" fund. No exceptions!

I am with those who say that our oil addiction must be curbed. I believe that the technology exists to find suitable renewable alternatives. Fuel based on "Algae Diesel" is one example. Algae can be grown anywhere rapidly, and it CONSUMES CO2 as it grows. But I also believe money won't be put into such alternative fuels R&D until Americans demand it.

And since the largest ecological disaster in America's history won't cause Americans to demand it, we know a hit to their wallets will.

 

[Genx87]

That gas tax would implode the economy and ultimately erode total tax collection. Your fund would be raided to pay for entitlement programs. We have a 10 billion dollar fund paid for by a tax on oil companies per barrel of oil to help pay for a cleanup. If that cap needs to be raised so be it.

Also your gax tax wouldnt have an effect on govt workers idling their cars. They dont pay for the gas out of pocket. The govt picks up the tab.

Our oil addiction will be curbed when the price of oil reaches a point where alternatives cost less.

 

[Atreus21]

What renewable alternatives exist?

 

[nageov3t]

what percentage of oil is used for personal transportation versus commercial?

 

[MrEgo]

To clear it up, BP is working its ass off to make a huge profit. They are doing us a favor as much as we are doing them a favor.

 

[MrEgo]

To what extent do we deserve the blame?

95% BP
4% Gubment
1% Consumer Ignorance (is bliss)

 

[cubeless]

To what extent do we deserve the blame?

95% BP
4% Gubment
1% Consumer Ignorance (is bliss)

huh? the gov't deserves 99% of the blame... they have complete control over who, where and how drilling is done... it barry wants to kick someone's ass http://www.cnbc.com/id/37567205 he should start at the top of his admin...

 

[Schadenfroh]

my tinfoil hat tells me that the "powers that be" (US government, Big Oil, etc.) were testing to find out the "breaking point" at which Americans would start to vote with their wallets

Big * is as powerful as big oil and was hemorrhaging during that time due to energy, they also have powerful allies in government, so why did they not pressure it to save their profits? Big Oil is not the only massively powerful, evil collection of capitalists around and when high energy prices step on the toes of the others, I think the "conspiracy" would be quick to end.

Fuel based on "Algae Diesel" is one example.

It is not viable yet (if ever) for the scale / price in which we need it, plus most Americans lack cars capable of using it. Remember, diesel cars are loud, polluting engines that we do not like. (last sentence is sarcasm, btw)

I believe we should have a $4/gallon gas tax on regular car gasoline and a $2/gallon gas tax on Diesel (truck) fuels. A $1/gallon tax would also be added to JET-A/A1 sales. 75% of all tax proceeds would go to paying down the national debt; 25% would go to a "Gulf Preservation" fund.

Enjoy that double-dip recession. On the plus side, more Americans would be paying taxes than ever before. Same with that national sales tax tax I keep hearing about. We need the entire population (including those that do not pay income tax) to feel the impact of our government's overspending before they elect people to cut the deficit.

 

[K1052]

Do you all remember about two years ago when gas prices went up to $4-$5 per gallon? Well, my tinfoil hat tells me that the "powers that be" (US government, Big Oil, etc.) were testing to find out the "breaking point" at which Americans would start to vote with their wallets. And Americans did break.

Uh, no that was caused by enormous amounts of capital moving into the commodities markets (mostly oil) and the resulting speculation driving the prices WAY up. Just another bubble.

That's not to say that we shouldn't be attempting to greatly reduce our dependence on oil.

 

[Genx87]

huh? the gov't deserves 99% of the blame... they have complete control over who, where and how drilling is done... it barry wants to kick someone's ass http://www.cnbc.com/id/37567205 he should start at the top of his admin...

Barry doesnt want to kick any ass. He is just spouting off for the media in an attempt to slow the errosion of his polling numbers. When I saw the article at the top of CNN.com yesterday I about spit my drink out. Yeah, Obama, who has been pretty damn passive about this situation now wants to kick somebody's ass? Uh huh, 2 months too late barry.

 

[tk149]

I mean, BP is only working its ass off to satisfy our addiction to oil. Sure, they deserve blame for cutting corners in their oversight, but to what extent, do we the buying public, deserve blame? Obviously, our appointed and paid public officials, the ones enjoying the hookers and blow instead of regulating, deserve a lot of the blame as well. (Remember those SEC workers who were caught enjoying hookers and blow during the midst of the financial crisis?)

I mean, a day doesn't go by when I don't see someone in their private (or government) vehicle idling their car for minutes on end without regard to their wastefulness and air pollution. The mentality is back in this country that cheap gas is here to stay and people are abusing it as such.

Do you all remember about two years ago when gas prices went up to $4-$5 per gallon? Well, my tinfoil hat tells me that the "powers that be" (US government, Big Oil, etc.) were testing to find out the "breaking point" at which Americans would start to vote with their wallets. And Americans did break. I recall reports on traffic decreasing on local highways, toll revenues down, public transit numbers way up, more people riding their bikes, food prices going up, etc. I even read/saw reports of smaller companies shifting manufacturing back to the United States from overseas as it became more cost effective than shipping. But perhaps best of all, I read/saw all sorts of stories about alternative fuels research. (I wish I could link to all these sources, but I am afraid they only exist in my memory to articles I either saw on TV or read online.)

Once the "powers that be" saw that the $4/$5 per gallon mark was the breaking point, prices rapidly reversed. (I know some argue that this was all just a "bubble" on the commodities market, but I believe there was something else behind it all.)

Anyway, where am I going with all this? I know I should turn in my "libertarian" card for this, but I believe we should have a $4/gallon gas tax on regular car gasoline and a $2/gallon gas tax on Diesel (truck) fuels. A $1/gallon tax would also be added to JET-A/A1 sales. 75% of all tax proceeds would go to paying down the national debt; 25% would go to a "Gulf Preservation" fund. No exceptions!

I am with those who say that our oil addiction must be curbed. I believe that the technology exists to find suitable renewable alternatives. Fuel based on "Algae Diesel" is one example. Algae can be grown anywhere rapidly, and it CONSUMES CO2 as it grows. But I also believe money won't be put into such alternative fuels R&D until Americans demand it.

And since the largest ecological disaster in America's history won't cause Americans to demand it, we know a hit to their wallets will.

Your tax would substantially decrease the standard of living for every American, and starve borderline families. But you're okay with that, because it won't be YOU suffering.

 

[MrEgo]

huh? the gov't deserves 99% of the blame... they have complete control over who, where and how drilling is done... it barry wants to kick someone's ass http://www.cnbc.com/id/37567205 he should start at the top of his admin...

Is this a serious post?

 

[Daedalus685]

What renewable alternatives exist?

Renewable over what time scale?

Assuming no other problems from pollution and the like...

Oil will run out on the order of centuries (perhaps as little as 50 years, perhaps more like 200)

We could use fission and be set for a couple hundred to one thousand years if we have the motivation to fission down to lead (recycle byproducts).

Fusion might grant us power for many thousands of years until we exhaust the hydrogen on earth (our water), or find another extraterrestrial source (plenty on Jupiter).

Solar power is good until the power demand exceeds the surface area of the earth.. which is something we need to work on avoiding through efficiency as once we start bringing more energy to earth from elsewhere thing could go sour with all the extra heat. Properly managed solar will be useful for well after the earth is gone. Solar has an obvous limit to its power, we cannot tap it over the short term for more power now and less later as we can with the various stored energy we have about.

Things like tidal, geothermal, and wind take energy from the earth and moon system. These are great as a small fraction of energy but can never be used to replace all of our needs without either devastating the climate, destroying the magnetic field (in the case of advanced geothermal) or speeding up perfect tidal locking of the earth and moon (the tides cause friction which slows the orbit of the earth down, eventually they will lock, extracting energy from tides increases the frictional forces and speeds up this process). These kinds of things would take hundreds of thousands of years, perhaps millions, at our current energy uptake to notice... but nothing is 'renewable' to infinity.. and it is likely our energy demands are going to exponentially increase at least for a while. They are only suitable as a collection of 'waste' energy that is going to disperse as radiation anyway.

Global warming might seem bad.. but talk to me in a few thousand years how smart we are if we end up living on a cold radiation bombarded tide free husk... I know that is over dramatic... but these things we often spout as 'renewable' are actually not... Short term energy for short term big trouble (pollution and so on) or long term energy for long term big problems that are not reversible.

Mind you none of this takes notice that our energy need will eventually exceed what arrives at earth... at which point we either destroy what is left by bombarding it with excess heat, or we leave.

There is no such thing as renewable energy... The only energy we encounter in our day to day lives that is not stored in some part of our system is solar. All of the other ones will run out on geological time frames and boy will things be different when they do dry up. Intelligently managed solar, and likely centralized stored power from something is the best bet. Mind you, I wonder how detrimental bringing stored energy to earth would be. I'm really not sure how well the heat would radiate away without damaging something severely.

It is entirely likely that we will all be long gone before we can mess things up too bad... but if we plan to exist in two thousand years we should probably not use sources of energy that effectively remove that possibility.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Is this a serious post?

Yes, typical cubeless and seriously deranged

 

[K1052]

*snip*

There is enough hydrogen/helium in the solar system to power the human race using fusion reactors for many thousands if not millions of years.

 

[Elias824]

Daedalus685 I guess were just all screwed unless we make spaceships. But then well just use the energy on that planet too untill we use all the hydrogen in the galaxy and all the stars in the known universe burn out and were doomed to live in a dark galaxy with nothing left.

 

[cubeless]

Is this a serious post?

of course it is... it's the truth... feel free to bash all the previous admins to get it out of your system, but the current admin is the one who ok'd this well... and if the fed gov't isn't the one who is in charge of all this, who is???

here's who barry thinks is to blame, the finger is out!!!

i'm gonna kick your ass...

 

[Genx87]

There is enough hydrogen/helium in the solar system to power the human race using fusion reactors for many thousands if not millions of years.

Sadly we are probably a good 30-50 years away from a commerical Fusion reactor

One wish in my life is to see a commercial fusion reactor running.

 

[piasabird]

You sir are a big idiot. Have you not noticed that the more you give government the more they waste and spend? Out of the millions for cash for clunkers only a little more than 1/3 of the $$ was actually spent on cars the rest was just wasteful spending by the government. This was the most wasteful spending boondongle on the face of the earth. Whoever was running it should be convicted of fraud and skimming money off the top.

So you are saying you want more fraud and wasteful spending???? Do you want to throw away 2/3 of all the extra tax dollars into a burn barrel? We dont need more government, we need less. As it is now, an army of accountants needs to start investigating the government spending. Who knows where all the money went. It surely never made it back into the hands of any deserving people. It just gets stolen by the cronies of whoever is in power.

 

[Daedalus685]

There is enough hydrogen/helium in the solar system to power the human race using fusion reactors for many thousands if not millions of years.

Yes I know... which is what I said is it not? We have perhaps a couple thousand years of supply on earth without destroying our water supply, but that there is plenty on extra terrestrial sources such as Jupiter.

The problem is that we cannot simlpy bring that to earth and use it without consequence. If we started doing that we would very quickly introduce much more heat than the environment can likely tolerate (though we have no idea how much would be too much... but that it is a good idea not to use energy within the confines of planet earth that would not have been here originally without EXTREME care).

Granted... once we have the technology to harvest another planet for hydrogen we might not be too concerned with only living on earth... but there is no guarantee we would have the option to do that before we started 'requiring' that energy. There is only so much 'fuel' within reach.

 

[K1052]

Yes I know... which is what I said is it not? We have perhaps a couple thousand years of supply on earth without destroying our water supply, but that there is plenty on extra terrestrial sources such as Jupiter.

The problem is that we cannot simlpy bring that to earth and use it without consequence. If we started doing that we would very quickly introduce much more heat than the environment can likely tolerate (though we have no idea how much would be too much... but that it is a good idea not to use energy within the confines of planet earth that would not have been here originally without EXTREME care).

Granted... once we have the technology to harvest another planet for hydrogen we might not be too concerned with only living on earth... but there is no guarantee we would have the option to do that before we started 'requiring' that energy. There is only so much 'fuel' within reach.

We wouldn't necessarily have to locally generate the power on earth given the probable advances in all aspects of technology by the time this would become an issue.

 

[Daedalus685]

Daedalus685 I guess were just all screwed unless we make spaceships. But then well just use the energy on that planet too untill we use all the hydrogen in the galaxy and all the stars in the known universe burn out and were doomed to live in a dark galaxy with nothing left.

Not quite screwed... we just have to not be stupid. Renewable energy is talked about as if it will be here forever without any problems.. but that is not at all the case.. it is just that it will be over a larger timescale than we are currently messing up the earth. Nothing is free.

There is no reason technology can not advance to the point that it becomes VERY energy efficient... we just don't seem to think that is worth it yet, luckily we have a lot of time to do it... but as with everything it is amazing how quickly we are able to ignore things we don't see as an immediate concern until it is too late.

 

[Daedalus685]

We wouldn't necessarily have to locally generate the power on earth given the probable advances in all aspects of technology by the time this would become an issue.

The issue is not where it is generated but where it is used.

If we start requiring energy from extraterrestrial sources we will be forced to live a proportionately large amount of time off of the earth.

It would not be prudent to allow the energy we bring from outer sources (or long term storage in rocks etc) to approach that which strikes the earth from the sun. We are nowhere close now... but if we are using as much more energy in 100years as we are now compared to 1900 we will be mighty close perhaps even in my lifetime.

 

[K1052]

The issue is not where it is generated but where it is used.

If we start requiring energy from extraterrestrial sources we will be forced to live a proportionately large amount of time off of the earth.

It would not be prudent to allow the energy we bring from outer sources (or long term storage in rocks etc) to approach that which strikes the earth from the sun. We are nowhere close now... but if we are using as much more energy in 100years as we are now compared to 1900 we will be mighty close perhaps even in my lifetime.

That doesn't account for any advances in efficiency. It is certainly possible to reduce our thermal footprint in many ways, everything from increasing population density to better engineered materials/systems.

 

[Modelworks]

I think the public is about 20% responsible for it in that they did not keep up on how oil companies are protecting from disasters but allowed the politicians to do it.

Comments about how if we move to other sources of energy we will not need oil is untrue. What will replace jet fuel ? Plastics ? Chemical additives derived from oil ? Diesel might could be replaced with a vegetable alternative but you will need massive amounts to fill all the semi-trucks that haul freight around the country. Changing plastics to non-oil products would increase cost in almost everything. That 50" TV uses a ton of oil in its production run to make the frame. There are some plastics from corn but where will we grow all the corn ? What are we going to pave the roads with without asphalt ? What will we use for tires to drive around those electric cars ?