To those saying there isn't a big gear gap in WoW and that it doesn't make a difference in PvP...

[TheNoblePlatypus]

You can cover some of the item gap with skill, but not all of it. There wouldn't be a very compelling reason to put an assload of hours in end game raiding if items didn't actually do anything for you.

As for this guy, he was using a Talisman of Ephemeral Power on every clip which has a minute and a half cooldown. Also, he was using Elemental Mastery in combination with that. The edited product makes him look like a damage machine, but you could do the same with any casting class and lucky crits.


In conclusion shamans are not overpowered, gear will always give advantages in PvP, and most people on PvP servers don't know how to use spell interrupts.

 

[ArmchairAthlete]

So shammies can 2 shot me from range in about 4 seconds now? Or oneshot if lucky. I need not come back.

And heal to full if i somehow got to them.

And I thought it was bad before hah.

Gotta love the part where that guy somehow gets killed then resurrects and finishes the guy.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
So shammies can 2 shot me from range in about 4 seconds now? Or oneshot if lucky. I need not come back.

And heal to full if i somehow got to them.

And I thought it was bad before hah.

Gotta love the part where that guy somehow gets killed then resurrects and finishes the guy.

If those shammies have dedicated hundreds of hours with ~39 of thier closest freinds to farming end-game instances for epic equipment and items and decide that you are a large enough threat for them to burn through all of thier cool-downs, then yes, they can 1 or 2 shot you. Then again, so can every other class. But scapegoats are much more fun, I suppose.

 

[Litchfield285]

Originally posted by: Tremulant

Originally posted by: Litchfield285

Originally posted by: Smilin
I'm going to disagree a bit with TGS about gear. Casters have TONS of items that add X to damage spells or Y to healing spells. Find ONE item, ANY item in the entire game of WoW that adds damage to an eviscerate.

The + spell damage items for casters are the only way they can increase their overall damage. Without that they would be stuck at the preset levels set by the highest spell rank they had. A Rogues damage can always be increased by getting better weapons, more agility/strength, + attack power or what have you.

How would it be fair to casters if there were no such thing as + spell damage, or if it was extremely rare or hard to come by. That arguement makes no sense. It would be dumb if casters were stuck with just upgrading their int/spirit/stam stats and had no way to increase their overall damage.

And you're highly mistaken by saying a Rogue in tier 1/2 gear is stuck doing the same amount of damage as a Rogue in greens. That is completely untrue. My Rogue has 3/8 NS, 3/8 BF, a Vis'kag and Brutality Blade. I always outdamage underequipped Rogues in all aspects of the game by extremely large amounts. A Rogue is almost as gear dependant as a Warrior.

Re-read the bolded part. Now, realize how your response had nothing to do with the bolded part.

There isn't any gear in the game (yet, 1.10 may add something) that increases the damage of eviscerate.

Other rogue skills are affected by your stats, eviscerate is not.

I wasn't speaking directly in reference to the bolded part. I never said there was something that directly increased the damage of evis. I was speaking in reference to the fact that he believes our damage cannot scale once we cap. +Spell Damage affects all of a casters attacks. A Rogues damage is not based off of Eviscerate only, therefore just because we dont have any items that increase it's damage does not mean there aren't items available that increase our overall damage output.

I may have quoted the wrong part, but I was not wrong in my point.

 

[ArmchairAthlete]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
So shammies can 2 shot me from range in about 4 seconds now? Or oneshot if lucky. I need not come back.

And heal to full if i somehow got to them.

And I thought it was bad before hah.

Gotta love the part where that guy somehow gets killed then resurrects and finishes the guy.

If those shammies have dedicated hundreds of hours with ~39 of thier closest freinds to farming end-game instances for epic equipment and items and decide that you are a large enough threat for them to burn through all of thier cool-downs, then yes, they can 1 or 2 shot you. Then again, so can every other class. But scapegoats are much more fun, I suppose.

Yea the gear gap in general means I'm toast. Hundreds of hours and they should win, lol. Don't know how they can stand it.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
So shammies can 2 shot me from range in about 4 seconds now? Or oneshot if lucky. I need not come back.

And heal to full if i somehow got to them.

And I thought it was bad before hah.

Gotta love the part where that guy somehow gets killed then resurrects and finishes the guy.

a rogue can damn near 2 shot you as well, download some of the rogue vids for the rogue forum, they just compiled a HUGE list, you just havew to be luckier and hope your opener crits, and you can pretty much gaurentee that with cold blood, the blue and tier 1/2 rogues can crit to almost 2K and eaisily deal 4K damage in ~5 secs

go download any of the videos by Stuck

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: TheNoblePlatypus
You can cover some of the item gap with skill, but not all of it. There wouldn't be a very compelling reason to put an assload of hours in end game raiding if items didn't actually do anything for you.

As for this guy, he was using a Talisman of Ephemeral Power on every clip which has a minute and a half cooldown. Also, he was using Elemental Mastery in combination with that. The edited product makes him look like a damage machine, but you could do the same with any casting class and lucky crits.


In conclusion shamans are not overpowered, gear will always give advantages in PvP, and most people on PvP servers don't know how to use spell interrupts.

Yep, and he may have had the ZG trinket as well. But 90 seconds is nothing, and the fact is, he IS a damage machine. Regardless, my claim wasn't that shamans were overpowered (never claimed we were and I don't feel that way), just that raid gear is. Glad we agree.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
So shammies can 2 shot me from range in about 4 seconds now? Or oneshot if lucky. I need not come back.

And heal to full if i somehow got to them.

And I thought it was bad before hah.

Gotta love the part where that guy somehow gets killed then resurrects and finishes the guy.

a rogue can damn near 2 shot you as well, download some of the rogue vids for the rogue forum, they just compiled a HUGE list, you just havew to be luckier and hope your opener crits, and you can pretty much gaurentee that with cold blood, the blue and tier 1/2 rogues can crit to almost 2K and eaisily deal 4K damage in ~5 secs

go download any of the videos by Stuck

I don't believe a rogue in blues can hit a 2k crit. My highest with a gutgore ripper (off Garr in MC, a 40man instance) was 2080 - on a rat in scholomance. Average ambush crit on a cloth wearer is ~1500. Ambush crit % is about 67, backstab 52. We can only do that sort of thing to cloth wearers. Armor greatly mitigates rogue damage. And once we're out of stealth, we're toast as people want to get rid of us asap and we're right there in range for them to do so.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
So shammies can 2 shot me from range in about 4 seconds now? Or oneshot if lucky. I need not come back.

And heal to full if i somehow got to them.

And I thought it was bad before hah.

Gotta love the part where that guy somehow gets killed then resurrects and finishes the guy.

a rogue can damn near 2 shot you as well, download some of the rogue vids for the rogue forum, they just compiled a HUGE list, you just havew to be luckier and hope your opener crits, and you can pretty much gaurentee that with cold blood, the blue and tier 1/2 rogues can crit to almost 2K and eaisily deal 4K damage in ~5 secs

go download any of the videos by Stuck

I don't believe a rogue in blues can hit a 2k crit. My highest with a gutgore ripper (off Garr in MC, a 40man instance) was 2080 - on a rat in scholomance. Average ambush crit on a cloth wearer is ~1500. Ambush crit % is about 67, backstab 52. We can only do that sort of thing to cloth wearers. Armor greatly mitigates rogue damage. And once we're out of stealth, we're toast as people want to get rid of us asap and we're right there in range for them to do so.

i said almost 2K i can upload one of the vids im talking about, where the crits are rutinly round the 1600-1900 range

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: ArmchairAthlete
So shammies can 2 shot me from range in about 4 seconds now? Or oneshot if lucky. I need not come back.

And heal to full if i somehow got to them.

And I thought it was bad before hah.

Gotta love the part where that guy somehow gets killed then resurrects and finishes the guy.

a rogue can damn near 2 shot you as well, download some of the rogue vids for the rogue forum, they just compiled a HUGE list, you just havew to be luckier and hope your opener crits, and you can pretty much gaurentee that with cold blood, the blue and tier 1/2 rogues can crit to almost 2K and eaisily deal 4K damage in ~5 secs

go download any of the videos by Stuck

I don't believe a rogue in blues can hit a 2k crit. My highest with a gutgore ripper (off Garr in MC, a 40man instance) was 2080 - on a rat in scholomance. Average ambush crit on a cloth wearer is ~1500. Ambush crit % is about 67, backstab 52. We can only do that sort of thing to cloth wearers. Armor greatly mitigates rogue damage. And once we're out of stealth, we're toast as people want to get rid of us asap and we're right there in range for them to do so.

i said almost 2K i can upload one of the vids im talking about, where the crits are rutinly round the 1600-1900 range

My crits with a ggr (purple mc loot) aren't routinely 1600-1900... You'd need a perdition's or a grand marshal's dagger or something to average that high. Neither is anywhere near blue. Still, you'd have (at best) a 75ish % chance to crit ambush, 55ish on BS, without using CB which is on a 3 minute timer.

Edit: On second thought, taking into account that not all players wear cloth, not all ambushes are crits and most crits don't hit for max damage, you can't average that high with current gear. Maybe at lv 70 in the expansion.

The cloth thing is big - armor is factored into backstab / ambush damage before the multipliers, so the crits against plate wearers especially are relatively tiny in comparison to what you can do to a cloth class. Even hunters with 2500-3k armor (mail, no shield) mitigate backstab and ambush quite heavily.

Don't get too caught up in videos; they're edited to show the best of the best, much like the one I linked in the OP. The difference is the one I linked clearly illustrates the difference between the best of the best (3700ish crits) and what you can do in blue gear as a shaman, which is around 1500 max.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: Smilin

There is a reason why:

The "stunlock" is a myth.

At best you can respec to stun for a few seconds more but you'll pay in dps output.

Some specifics:
1. 20 seconds of stunlock isn't going to cut it. Why? because you don't generate enough energy in 20 seconds to stun AND attack. Sure you can disable someone for 20 seconds but when time is up they have enough health to still be in the fight and you are completely spent with no energy. You have to hope you can drop them while they are stunned - which you won't.

But what you've done is taken an opponent out of the battle for 20 seconds. FFS, that's *worse* than being killed, because at least when I die in a BG, I've got a better-than-average change of respawning in less than 20 seconds to continue fighting. Being stunlocked while defending a node in AB is the "roguiest" things that can happen to you. You were just removed from the fight and you have to watch you team get slaughtered while you sit there like a chump. The only thing more humiliating is have a Hunter drop a freeze trap on your feet while he caps the node.

You do know, it's not *all* about 1v1 killing in BGs? It's about helping your team. You whine about not being able to tear through everyone like a one-man-killing-machine, but what about priests that heal, or casters that CC, or buffer that buff? They rarely get kills, but are the some of the most important players in the game. It's all about playing your role, not soloing.

And if you take the RP approach, Rogues are basically cowardly, back-stabbing, creeping-in-the-shadows thieves, who's job it is to make themselves a giant PITA for other players, via saps, stunlocks, poisons, etc, not to be uber-melee DPS gods that can stand toe-to-toe with plate-clad warriors in an even matchup.

To quote to WoW forums, "It's fine, learn2play your class."

At this point it's obvious you're just arguing for the sake of argument. That or falling into the trap of everything looking just peachy keen when you're on top (ffs you're a hunter, you couldn't conceivably be more overpowered in PvP). I'll just point out how absurd it is to claim it's balanced that a rogue's role is to incapacitate someone (not a fscking orc, that's for goddamn sure) while others kill multiple people at once, heal, etc., and die a fast death if any other melee class is nearby while you're doing it.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
But what you've done is taken an opponent out of the battle for 20 seconds. FFS, that's *worse* than being killed, because at least when I die in a BG, I've got a better-than-average change of respawning in less than 20 seconds to continue fighting. Being stunlocked while defending a node in AB is the "roguiest" things that can happen to you. You were just removed from the fight and you have to watch you team get slaughtered while you sit there like a chump. The only thing more humiliating is have a Hunter drop a freeze trap on your feet while he caps the node.

You do know, it's not *all* about 1v1 killing in BGs? It's about helping your team. You whine about not being able to tear through everyone like a one-man-killing-machine, but what about priests that heal, or casters that CC, or buffer that buff? They rarely get kills, but are the some of the most important players in the game. It's all about playing your role, not soloing.

And if you take the RP approach, Rogues are basically cowardly, back-stabbing, creeping-in-the-shadows thieves, who's job it is to make themselves a giant PITA for other players, via saps, stunlocks, poisons, etc, not to be uber-melee DPS gods that can stand toe-to-toe with plate-clad warriors in an even matchup.

To quote to WoW forums, "It's fine, learn2play your class."

At this point it's obvious you're just arguing for the sake of argument. That or falling into the trap of everything looking just peachy keen when you're on top (ffs you're a hunter, you couldn't conceivably be more overpowered in PvP). I'll just point out how absurd it is to claim it's balanced that a rogue's role is to incapacitate someone (not a fscking orc, that's for goddamn sure) while others kill multiple people at once, heal, etc., and die a fast death if any other melee class is nearby while you're doing it.

Funny, now that other WoW Forum favorite come to mind: "Cry more, n00b."

If a game causes you so much grief, that you must resort to immature whining and cursing to describe your feeling about it, all the while playing the "poor me" victim card, the most logical step would be to quit, no? But no, keep on letting Blizzard charge that credit card - that'll teach 'em! :roll:

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
But what you've done is taken an opponent out of the battle for 20 seconds. FFS, that's *worse* than being killed, because at least when I die in a BG, I've got a better-than-average change of respawning in less than 20 seconds to continue fighting. Being stunlocked while defending a node in AB is the "roguiest" things that can happen to you. You were just removed from the fight and you have to watch you team get slaughtered while you sit there like a chump. The only thing more humiliating is have a Hunter drop a freeze trap on your feet while he caps the node.

You do know, it's not *all* about 1v1 killing in BGs? It's about helping your team. You whine about not being able to tear through everyone like a one-man-killing-machine, but what about priests that heal, or casters that CC, or buffer that buff? They rarely get kills, but are the some of the most important players in the game. It's all about playing your role, not soloing.

And if you take the RP approach, Rogues are basically cowardly, back-stabbing, creeping-in-the-shadows thieves, who's job it is to make themselves a giant PITA for other players, via saps, stunlocks, poisons, etc, not to be uber-melee DPS gods that can stand toe-to-toe with plate-clad warriors in an even matchup.

To quote to WoW forums, "It's fine, learn2play your class."

At this point it's obvious you're just arguing for the sake of argument. That or falling into the trap of everything looking just peachy keen when you're on top (ffs you're a hunter, you couldn't conceivably be more overpowered in PvP). I'll just point out how absurd it is to claim it's balanced that a rogue's role is to incapacitate someone (not a fscking orc, that's for goddamn sure) while others kill multiple people at once, heal, etc., and die a fast death if any other melee class is nearby while you're doing it.

Funny, now that other WoW Forum favorite come to mind: "Cry more, n00b."

If a game causes you so much grief, that you must resort to immature whining and cursing to describe your feeling about it, all the while playing the "poor me" victim card, the most logical step would be to quit, no? But no, keep on letting Blizzard charge that credit card - that'll teach 'em! :roll:

Who's cursing? You've shown in other threads that between us you're the only one here who'll resort to personal attacks. Well, I'm not one to refrain once it's started. It's easy to say quit if you don't like it, since it requires absolutely no thought - it's a response right up your alley, it seems. There are many factors, the primary one being the fact there's no better entertainment out there. Another is that they really have put together a half decent game, it's frustrating to see it being ruined by poor decisions on their part. Do you quit something you enjoy or attempt to better it? Ok, I'm sure your head is heating up enough by this point to singe off your hair, I'll leave you with that to chew on for now. More homework tomorrow

I do have to give you credit though, you're masterful at misdirecting the focus of a thread where you're clearly wrong & won't admit it.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: RBachman

At this point it's obvious you're just arguing for the sake of argument. That or falling into the trap of everything looking just peachy keen when you're on top (ffs you're a hunter, you couldn't conceivably be more overpowered in PvP). I'll just point out how absurd it is to claim it's balanced that a rogue's role is to incapacitate someone (not a fscking orc, that's for goddamn sure) while others kill multiple people at once, heal, etc., and die a fast death if any other melee class is nearby while you're doing it.

Funny, now that other WoW Forum favorite come to mind: "Cry more, n00b."

If a game causes you so much grief, that you must resort to immature whining and cursing to describe your feeling about it, all the while playing the "poor me" victim card, the most logical step would be to quit, no? But no, keep on letting Blizzard charge that credit card - that'll teach 'em! :roll:

Who's cursing? You've shown in other threads that between us you're the only one here who'll resort to personal attacks. Well, I'm not one to refrain once it's started. It's easy to say quit if you don't like it, since it requires absolutely no thought - it's a response right up your alley, it seems. There are many factors, the primary one being the fact there's no better entertainment out there. Another is that they really have put together a half decent game, it's frustrating to see it being ruined by poor decisions on their part. Do you quit something you enjoy or attempt to better it? Ok, I'm sure your head is heating up enough by this point to singe off your hair, I'll leave you with that to chew on for now. More homework tomorrow

I do have to give you credit though, you're masterful at misdirecting the focus of a thread where you're clearly wrong & won't admit it.

"FFS," "not a fscking orc," "that's for goddamn sure."

Sorry, but those seemed like heated words to me. Personal attacks? You play that victim card like it's a Ace of Beasts, don't ya? :laugh: The only reason I suggest for you to quit is that you seem to spend as many hours here preaching about the evils of PvP and Epic Gear gap as you do playing the game. I freely admit I'm wrong about something no less than a dozen times per day, yet I'm still looking for a single place where you've conceded a single point in this discussion. It must be nice being so infallible.

Of course it's not a perfect game, but you've yet to offer up any suggestions on what you'd like the game to be like, despite direct questions about such. Instead, you merely wave your hand at "corporate greed" and "developer incompetence" while reminiscing about games years dead and those years away from release. You've even been presented a clear, consise, bulleted list of how someone who disagrees with you sees things, with an open invitation to insert your debate points. Did you respond, or did you shrug it off?

But no, you keep whining about "personal attacks," "corporate greed," "kiddies PvPers," "unfair gear stats," "overpowered classes," "casual players," "uber-players," and every other scape-goat you can think of. Then continue to tell yourself that you've "won" this argument and everyone else is "clearly wrong," despite your lack of a coherent, logical argument to the contrary. Perhaps one day you'll realize that "I'm right because I say I'm right" is a poor excuse for a defense. But alas, I guess I should leave before "my hair gets singed" from your scathing rhetoric. :roll:

And once again, we see a legitimate debate on WoW gear come down to a battle-rezzed Gurck crying foul and attempting to take his ball and run home, instead of sticking to the discussion at hand. *shrug*

 

[CKent]

- You ignore my points, make off-topic replies and berate me for ignoring them
- You play the personal-attack victim card, when called on it you give examples of me talking about the game and not referencing you at all
- You repeatedly, proudly pound your chest as if you're the first, and not the one hundredth, person to figure out something I haven't bothered trying to hide

I think we're about done

ps. I've constructively criticized the situation and given alternative suggestions. You obviously know how to read, so stop ignoring them.

 

[cKGunslinger]

I say:

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

I'm sure this subject is probably futile and has definitely been beaten to death, but I'm just curious about how people would suggest it be modified. I mean, for example, let me give the "typical" MMORPG progression pattern.

MMORPG Timeline (as I see it)

1) MMORPG is released. Players sign up. Some level fast, some level slow. People are happy.

2) A few weeks/months later, the heavy players hit level cap (60) and begin High-end content. Many other are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

3) Heavy player have now regulated High-end content to farming mode. Patterns are learned and instances are run, no longer for fun, but for equipment (level X) Other just begin to hit 60. Many others are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

4) Discontent rises. Heavy players are now bored with nothing to really do. Some quit. Others players make a few high runs to get a few pieces of level X equipment. Others just begin to hit 60. Many others are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

5) In an effort to appease the growing "bored" players, the developers releases some new content, with additional "level X" equipment to be won. Heavy players quickly run it a few times for fun, then realize that that there is no better equipment to be had and thus become bored again. Others make a few high runs to get a few pieces of level X equipment. Other just begin to hit 60. Many others are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

6) The developers, realizing that the population has massively shifted towards level cap and are running out of things to do, finally release more High-end content, but in order to keep paying players online, they add some X+1 loot to be had. Heavy players rejoice, having something to do for weeks/months again. Others make a few high runs to get a few pieces of level X equipment. Other just begin to hit 60. Many others are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

7) X+1 equipment is now being farmed. Heavy players become bored again. Others make a few high runs to get a few pieces of level X and X+1 equipment. Other just begin to hit 60. Many others are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

8) The cycle repeats...

9) Now heavy players have farmed the X+5 equipment from the high-end instances. The rest of the 60s have smatterings of X, X+1, through X+5 equipment, based on their play style. Others just begin to hit 60. Many others are still enjoying the mid-level content. New players continue to join.

10) Uh-oh. Some the X+5 equipped players decide to run some Battergrounds. They match up against some new 60s in green, blue, and X level gear. They steamroll the other team due to several factors.

- a) They have better gear
- b) They are better organized (they had to be, in order to get better gear)
- c) They have more play experience (due to the vast amounts of grinding to get better gear)

11) Losing players whine that X+5 gear is too powerful and is "unfair" to them. Some say that even X+4 gear is too much. Some say X+3.

12) ?

13) Profit!

So, to those who find themselves at step 11, I ask this. At what point did the "mistake" happen? At which point would you, as the developer, done something different, and what would that have been? How would have both kept bored "uber" players from leaving the game as well as appeased those who will probably never get a chance to roll on a single piece of X+1 gear?

You respond:

Originally posted by: RBachman
That's not an MMORPG timeline, it's what you've seen in a game or two, and caused by corporate greed & dev incompetence, at least for EQ. It needn't be that way.

Yeah, so if that's your idea of having "constructively criticized the situation and given alternative suggestions", then you are correct, we are done here.

 

[Lazy8s]

I went from the Ice Barbed Spear to The Unstoppable Force on my warrior and it was a completely different character. Gear>skill since BWL and ZG. That's why I quit wow.

 

[CKent]

Note above where I said "You ignore my points, make off-topic replies and berate me for ignoring them ". Perhaps you should re-read the thread title.

Ps. you're the only one still claiming gear doesn't make a difference. Read some of the other replies while you're skimming over the thread.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RBachman
Note above where I said "You ignore my points, make off-topic replies and berate me for ignoring them ". Perhaps you should re-read the thread title.

Ps. you're the only one still claiming gear doesn't make a difference. Read some of the other replies while you're skimming over the thread.

I'll try again:

1) You tell me to read the thread title. It says "To those saying there isn't a big gear gap in WoW.." All my replies have been about this gear gap and how I don't beleive it to be as big as some believe it to be.

2) I've never once made any such claim that "gear doesn't make a difference," and to even suggest I have is a pathetic and piss-poor straw-man attempt on your part. :disgust: Of course gear makes a difference, you fool - everyone knows that. What we are discussing is whether the gear gap is so severe that it negatively affects the playability and enjoyment of the game, which I, and many others feel it does not, while you, and many others, feel it does.

Now please, give *one* half-detailed description of how *you feel* the game could be advanced and tweaked to remove this imposing (in your eyes) gear gap. One, just one. That's all I've ever asked of you in months of discussions, and it's also the one question you repeated evade and evade and evade.

Does being a Rogue in game somehow give you +100% dodge in forum discussions as well?

 

[CKent]

You're one to talk about dodging :laugh: I've gone over my feelings on the MMOG gear gap many times in this forum, and I know you've read it. You're not a very good actor, try another approach

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RBachman
You're one to talk about dodging :laugh: I've gone over my feelings on the MMOG gear gap many times in this forum, and I know you've read it. You're not a very good actor, try another approach

Yes, you've gone over your feelings about the gear gap many time, ranging from "it sucks" to "I hate it," whereas all I've ever asked is for a suggestion to an alternative.

*shrug* As much as I enjoy discussions about such things, your continued evasiveness of such a simple question has worn me down yet again this round.

/yield
/bow
/quit

 

[CKent]

I've stated many times that it's a difficult problem because WoW is fundamentally flawed. You need a huge gear gap to entice people to raid even if they don't like raiding - because there's nothing else to do. The solution is to have an immersive & complex game world with different paths to advancement, raiding being just one of many. Raid content should reward those who enjoy raidering for their extra effort with better but not overpowering gear.

 

[Smilin]

My point is rapidly getting lost in bickering. Here it is restated:

1. The stunlock is a myth. (don't even bother arguing unless you have a 60 rogue)

2. As patches come out and more epic gear gets released rogues (and some other classes) will continue to get *relatively* weaker. Although it may improve some, Rogue damage does not scale directly to the quality of gear he has. This problem is made worse because of the amount of epic armor appearing.



The number of issues in WoW is vast. A solution to one of these would be to include weapon and character stats into the calculation used for rogue damage. Many rogue skills are level-only based and cap at 60 regardless of your gear.

 

[BigPoppa]

I think you're looking at the game a bit short-sighted currently, RB. New 8-piece set quests for the classes consisting of half blue/half epic gear are coming in 1.10 with the most difficult part of attaining it being UBRS. Now, should they continue this trend, which they most certainly will, the set quests at lvl 70 will be better than a full suit of MC set gear and probably comparable to better than BWL gear. These sets will also be obtained in less time than it woudl take a raider to obtain their dungeon set. This allows a few things: the hardcore raiders are going to be 1 step ahead at all times, great. The casual/non raid crowd is going to be able to gear up passed the lower tier raid dungeons. Casuals will also gear up faster than raiders. This will then allow casual raiding of MC/ZG/BWL/AQ20/beginning of AQ40 for pieces in slots that aren't upgradeable through quests/drops in the higher end single group/small raid instances.

When the level cap is raised to 70 by the expansion, players are going to be SEVEN levels higher than the bosses in MC/BWL etc. To say that is a small gain would be hard to swallow. The sheer mitigation advantage tanks will gain is huge, to say the least. Resist rates will plummet and on and on. Casuals will be 10-15 manning Onyxia in no time with a little cooperation. World bosses will be able to be killed by smaller forces of higher leveled people.

This is all provided Blizz moves in the direction I think they're moving.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RBachman
I've stated many times that it's a difficult problem because WoW is fundamentally flawed. You need a huge gear gap to entice people to raid even if they don't like raiding - because there's nothing else to do. The solution is to have an immersive & complex game world with different paths to advancement, raiding being just one of many. Raid content should reward those who enjoy raidering for their extra effort with better but not overpowering gear.

Ahh.. after a nice bit of sleep, I'm ready again. And a serious, straight-forward response as well! /cheer

So your opinion is that the entire game is fundamentally flawed? So, for *you* to be happy, a successful software developer has to completely and fundamentally change it's phenomenally successful MMORPG into something completely different? And you feel that's a valid complaint?

How is that any different than someone repeatedly posting in Forum Issues about how he'd like to see AT turned into a hardcore pay-for-pr0n website? I'm sure he'd get a few people chiming in about how they'd like to see that as well, but would you expect Anand and guys to seriously consider fundamentally changing the purpose and direction of their flagship product to satisfy a completely different audience? Of course not.

When I say you should "quit the game," it's not an insult or a "thoughtless answer" that's "right up my alley." It's a suggestion to try and help you reach satisfaction. I do not believe Blizzard is going to fundamentally change WoW away from gear-driven raiding any more than Anand is going to cater to pornophiles, or McDonald's is going to start serving Fillet Minion.

What you appear to want is an entirely different game. I'm not saying that that type of game is undesirable or unprofitable, just not what it appears Blizzard's design has ever intended to be. After raking in billions of dollars and accolades on WoW, what incentive do they have to pull the rug out from under the feet of millions of satisfied players?