To the fools who thought the NSA was the only one spying

[Zorkorist]

No, I realize that the world is far more complicated than everybody sitting around a campfire simging kumbaya. You can take this childish viewpoint.

Relationships between nation states is not childish. Its why people like Ron Paul are fucking morons.

Ron Paul, would give appropriate thought to other nations, but if you want true conservatism, you have to let other nations fend for themselves.

I don't know how you could attack Ron Paul for that idea.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

I'm not digging that deep. My POV is well known here for anybody capable of paying attention.

Yeah, and it is pro Government, pro patriot act, etc.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

It's a very simple idea that would easily save billions from the budget.

You tell me why we need foreign aid in the world of communication we have today.

If someone is in trouble, they can ask for aid.

-John

 

[Jhhnn]

Will you and Obama just get a room?

Will you actually address the point?

Not likely.

Many of those raving about surveillance now were all for the legislation enabling it at the time. It would be refreshing if those people would say something like "You know, I thought it was a good idea at the time. I was mistaken. I didn't think it would lead to this."

As it is, it's just another blind partisan hate-um Obama vector.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yeah, and it is pro Government, pro patriot act, etc.

-John

If you contend that I am "pro patriot act" you take on the burden of proof supporting that assertion. Have fun with that.

I just said I was opposed all along, but you, of course, need to believe to the contrary to support your conspiracy theory world view.

If the NSA gave a flying rat's ass about you, they'd send emails reminding you to take your meds.

 

[Zorkorist]

Pro Government is by default Pro Patriot Act.

There isn't any bit of Government that you won't do, Jhnn.

We have already discovered just how controlling a bitch you are.

-John

 

[Jhhnn]

Pro Government is by default Pro Patriot Act.

There isn't any bit of Government that you won't do, Jhnn.

We have already discovered just how controlling a bitch you are.

-John

Giant leaps of Faith are no problem when it comes to defending your world view to yourself, huh?

Anything to avoid cognitive dissonance, I suppose.

 

[Zorkorist]

The only one believing in a higher power here, is you.

Good thing Government is spending far more than it takes in, to support brain-fucks like yourself.

-John

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Will you actually address the point?

Not likely.

Many of those raving about surveillance now were all for the legislation enabling it at the time. It would be refreshing if those people would say something like "You know, I thought it was a good idea at the time. I was mistaken. I didn't think it would lead to this."

As it is, it's just another blind partisan hate-um Obama vector.

It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Presidencies should not get a pass on continuing to do the bad things of those who came before. Well Bush is gone and the one who holds office now is responsible. Those who object now but not then have no grounds for complaint and neither do those who objected then but adopt a permissive attitude now.

Obama needs to cut this crap out.

 

[Jhhnn]

It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Presidencies should not get a pass on continuing to do the bad things of those who came before. Well Bush is gone and the one who holds office now is responsible. Those who object now but not then have no grounds for complaint and neither do those who objected then but adopt a permissive attitude now.

Obama needs to cut this crap out.

Hee hee. So there was no difference between Bush in Iraq & Obama in Iraq either, I suppose. There's no difference between an instigator and a person who has to live with the consequences, either. Maybe Obama should denounce Bush & the WoT the way that Khrushchev denounced Stalin, ehh?

There's the small matter of Congress, as well. Remember what happened when Dems tried to soften the Patriot Act bullshit? When Obama tried to close Gitmo?

Terrar! Terrar! Terrar! Oh the Humanity! Protect America!

Where's that good old "Enforce the Law!" spirit, anyway? Isn't Obama a soft on Terrar! dictator if he doesn't?

The notion that any president should eschew the National Security tools given him by Congress & his predecessors is claptrap in support of a political agenda. Only Congress or the SCOTUS can rightfully rescind this shit. Just so long as the law stands as it is, the worst case scenario of not following it would be disastrous for any President, present or future. That's as obvious as sunrise.

Which *does not* mean that I favor the current scope of NSA snooping or the conspiracy theory hysteria around it, either.

 

[fskimospy]

No kidding. I'm having problems finding where Germany has been spying on the entire population of the us. The world was complicated long before you were born and you aren't special for it Welcome to 50 years ago.

All these other countries monitor communications, etc, that come through their countries. They are spying on as much of the US as they can.

 

[Moonbeam]

With regard to UP spying:

LegendKiller seems to be expressing a kind of moral superiority via indifference to what he terms the faux righteous indignation expressed by others toward this practice. He feels its practically more mature to not take offense, that this is wise adjustment to the real world.

Posts 2 and 3 seem to support the sense that superiority is conferred by holding that position.

Fern is upset about domestic spying but not spying on other countries without out seeing that we can't not spy on ourselves if others elsewhere call in here.

Zorba pretty much agrees with Fern adding the practice is universal where the ability to do it exists.

Jhhnn thinks we have to get used to what is expected, that spying is natural, as it were.

Hayabusa Rider says we are not only spying on ourselves but using that information against citizens too, and that an argument that it's ok to do wrong because others do is also wrong.

Zorkorist chimes in with spying is an evil and leads to the destruction of civilization.
---------

What, I wonder, is going on. What is all this about. To me it seems to be all about guilt. We have these constitutional notions of privacy and we have fear, the fear that fear will overcome our constitutional guarantees, or that protecting them will lead to surprise attack, an emotional excitation that quickly turns to politics and which party is guilty of what.

I think the ideas being expressed except for perhaps just one, are designed as protections or emotional buffers to avoid feeling the guilt that one person, Hay, is willing to feel, a contempt for rationalizations that deny doing what is right.

To me, the idea that comes up is the one of what is a justifiable war? Is there a principle of good, say the protection of innocents, that justifies killing people who threaten them? If there is, would a government be able to recognize it?

What we can say, I think, is that so long as humanity sleeps, shit will happen. That's going to make some of us, those who hate injustice, very sad, I think.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I couldn't care less if the NSA is spying on foreigners. I'm mad as hell because they're spying on us.

Fern

this.

the whole purpose of the NSA is to spy on other people. not on its own citizens.

 

[Newell Steamer]

I ripped the tags off of my pillows and mattress,...

Well.

When is the gubnament going to kick down my door and send me to Guantanamo Bay for the rest of my life?

 

[Moonbeam]

this.

the whole purpose of the NSA is to spy on other people. not on its own citizens.

Shit, I already explained that this is impossible if a foreigner calls an America citizen. Can you please read and refute the ideas already given that refute your preposterous idea.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

OP I don't know anyone who thought the NSA was the only one spying. I'm not sure who ever said that anywhere?

I think most people's problem is that the NSA is spying on US, this citizens who employ them to protect US. They spy on ALL OF US. That doesn't feel like protection, it feels like 1984-type violation.

I fully expect that all outside agencies try to spy on U.S. citizens. The NSA should spend more time trying to prevent that from occurring and less time trying to participate in that same behavior.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

Shit, I already explained that this is impossible if a foreigner calls an America citizen. Can you please read and refute the ideas already given that refute your preposterous idea.

Is there not a difference between monitoring international communications with our own citizens and monitoring ALL NON-international communications BETWEEN our own citizens?

I bet most people's problem with being spied upon isn't centered upon having phone calls between US-Yemen monitored, but having phone calls from L.A. to Burbank monitored.

 

[werepossum]

OP I don't know anyone who thought the NSA was the only one spying. I'm not sure who ever said that anywhere?

I think most people's problem is that the NSA is spying on US, this citizens who employ them to protect US. They spy on ALL OF US. That doesn't feel like protection, it feels like 1984-type violation.

I fully expect that all outside agencies try to spy on U.S. citizens. The NSA should spend more time trying to prevent that from occurring and less time trying to participate in that same behavior.

I think one big problem is the clumsiness. It's one thing to spy on one's allies, quite another to get caught red-handed. Be that as it may, I have no problem with other countries' spying on me as their ability to affect me is quite small. My own country, not so much.

 

[Sattern]

I don't understand why we need such harsh security metrics.

With any basic automated solution the government has they can literally watch anything without spending billions.

Finding out if a country is against you or is doing something wrong is easy, you don't need to spy on them.

The government just wants something to spend money on so they can raise your taxes.

Like another person mentioned, if someone really needs help they would ask for it.