To Fill Budget Hole, Kansas G.O.P. Considers the Unthinkable: Raising Taxes

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Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,517
15,399
136
And the "not just anything" spending is the key. You should figure out what the government should do (and not be doing) and fund it appropriately and not vice versa. You don't cut taxes just for the sake of it just as you don't stupidly throw money at "shovel ready projects" just because you can.

I absolutely agree!
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,166
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It's funny, comparing my home state of Massachusetts (derisively called "Taxachusetts" by conservatives) and Kansas, MA has a higher growth rate of tax receipts compared to the rest of the nation while Kansas' plummeted.

I'm a MA guy too and I agree
 

DrDoug

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2014
3,580
1,629
136
The other day I was reading that a Kansas Republican Rep had put together a bill that the rest of the nuts, including the governor, might be able to get behind. Of course the new bill will screw just about everyone while giving the bulk of the tax cuts to people who don't need them but what else would you expect from Republicans? The plan is for no tax-cut rollbacks and to raise the sales tax to 6.5%. One other little change will be to have it apply to everything, no exemptions. I am going to gander a guess right now that there will be some religious exemptions allowed if the bill were to pass, don't want to piss off the faithful! In this case, "everything" in this tax bill means just about everything. Do you need supplies for your business, be it hospital, nursing home or whatever? Pay the tax. Selling Girl Scout cookies? Pay the tax. If it's sold in Kansas, pay the tax.

In the end, guess who ends up paying most of the tax so that the people who don't need tax cuts can keep their tax cuts? You poor suckers in Kansas. Every day you are getting less and less value from your government and yet the guys you have trusted to run your state keep demanding more and more from you so they can keep delivering less!

It's like watching the crew of a ship willfully drilling holes in their sinking vessel because the Captain told them that doing so would not only save their ship but give it flight capability.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
The other day I was reading that a Kansas Republican Rep had put together a bill that the rest of the nuts, including the governor, might be able to get behind. Of course the new bill will screw just about everyone while giving the bulk of the tax cuts to people who don't need them but what else would you expect from Republicans? The plan is for no tax-cut rollbacks and to raise the sales tax to 6.5%. One other little change will be to have it apply to everything, no exemptions. I am going to gander a guess right now that there will be some religious exemptions allowed if the bill were to pass, don't want to piss off the faithful! In this case, "everything" in this tax bill means just about everything. Do you need supplies for your business, be it hospital, nursing home or whatever? Pay the tax. Selling Girl Scout cookies? Pay the tax. If it's sold in Kansas, pay the tax.

In the end, guess who ends up paying most of the tax so that the people who don't need tax cuts can keep their tax cuts? You poor suckers in Kansas. Every day you are getting less and less value from your government and yet the guys you have trusted to run your state keep demanding more and more from you so they can keep delivering less!

It's like watching the crew of a ship willfully drilling holes in their sinking vessel because the Captain told them that doing so would not only save their ship but give it flight capability.

I love how you so blithely declare what people "need" or not. Government and taxes aren't some kind of a la carte deal where you can pick what you want and pay for just that, so saying someone doesn't "need" a tax break is as presumptuous as someone saying that a disabled person doesn't "need" SSI, or a retired person "need" social security.
 

DrDoug

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2014
3,580
1,629
136
I love how you so blithely declare what people "need" or not. Government and taxes aren't some kind of a la carte deal where you can pick what you want and pay for just that, so saying someone doesn't "need" a tax break is as presumptuous as someone saying that a disabled person doesn't "need" SSI, or a retired person "need" social security.

So the need for tax cuts is as important as the need for SSI or SS? Wow, now that's one lame argument...lol! These tax cuts in Kansas are structured so that those who have more money that would normally be taxed at a higher rate will now pay less. They are the only people who are benefiting from this disaster. These tax cuts were made possible by Republicans so business would boom and more money would magically flow into the Kansas state tax coffers. Now that the promised revenue is not appearing the Kansas Republicans are going to maintain the tax cuts and make everyone in the state; businesses, charity organizations, civic organizations, all the way down to the poorest person, make up the difference, all the while slashing government spending even more.

If you think this is a winning formula then you might be an idiot.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,517
15,399
136
I love how you so blithely declare what people "need" or not. Government and taxes aren't some kind of a la carte deal where you can pick what you want and pay for just that, so saying someone doesn't "need" a tax break is as presumptuous as someone saying that a disabled person doesn't "need" SSI, or a retired person "need" social security.

Raising the sales tax because the drop in the tax rate for businesses and individuals didn't improve their economy is about as dumb as it gets.
I know you know what good economic policy is, surely you recognize that this isn't it. Based on my limited research raising the sales tax does very little if anything when it comes to raising more revenue.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
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And the "not just anything" spending is the key. You should figure out what the government should do (and not be doing) and fund it appropriately and not vice versa. You don't cut taxes just for the sake of it just as you don't stupidly throw money at "shovel ready projects" just because you can.

In the midst of the greatest employment crisis & financial sector lockup since 1929, any jobs spending was good spending. The sooner the better, apparently easier said than done.

That's in contrast to the tax cuts, which just left people with jobs & money some extra to save or pay down bills. That's naturally how people behave in periods of shock & uncertainty following, uhh, periods of "irrational exuberance", otherwise known as looting sprees.

Damned few jobs were created out of that.

Don't want the welfare state? Who's creating the jobs to replace it?

That's where Righties go off track. If private industry is not employing Americans in sufficient numbers, distributing income, then the government of the people has the right & obligation to create jobs & pay for them through progressive taxation.

Let's face it- the only reason global corporatists treat us any better than Bangla Deshis Is because we demand better in an organized way.

All of the anti government raving on the right has been created for the specific purpose of disallowing that, of course, all at the behest of those same corporatists. It feeds a truly strange sort of self righteousness among people who apparently have lots of time on the job to post here, as if they're somehow better, more important & harder working than folks behind the counter at the DMV.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
11,554
7,978
136
Interesting article today:

http://washingtonspectator.org/bobby-jindal-and-grover-norquist-wreck-louisiana/

MONDAY, JUN 1, 2015 05:59 PM EDT
How Bobby Jindal lost everything: A one-time GOP hope, gutted by Grover Norquist worship and his own ambition

These are not happy times in Baton Rouge, where government officials are desperately trying to plug a $1.6 billion budget shortfall. But even by that standard, Wednesday, April 22, was particularly fraught.

In the imposing state capitol that Huey Long built, the Senate Finance Committee was wrestling with a complicated cost-cutting scheme to repeal an inventory tax that businesses pay to local governments and that the state rebates to the businesses, all while promising to somehow make stressed-out local leaders whole.

Just down the road, Louisiana State University President and Chancellor F. King Alexander said that the state’s flagship university, which could lose 80 percent of state funding after years of already deep cuts, was developing a worst-case scenario plan for financial exigency—basically the academic equivalent of bankruptcy.

In the midst of it all came a message from Republican Governor Bobby Jindal, whose policies and priorities have contributed mightily to the state’s fiscal mess.

“Help wish my friends Willie, Phil and Si a happy birthday,” said the tweet, which was accompanied by a photo of Willie Robertson, whose family is featured on the popular homegrown reality TV show Duck Dynasty. It then directed readers to the website for the American Future Project, a 527 issue advocacy group that Jindal has set up in advance of his anticipated presidential run.

If the tweet suggests a stunning disconnect from the dire budget situation that’s unfolding on his watch, well, that’s how it is these days.

A PURE RECORD ON TAXES
Jindal, a hard-charging former Rhodes Scholar, has always nursed grander ambitions, and voters generally gave him a pass. That was when things were going well.

These days they’re not, and Jindal’s focus on the upcoming presidential primaries has taken a toll back home. While he was popular and powerful enough to avoid a reelection fight in 2011, by 2015 his approval rating had sunk to 27 percent, according to one poll; a friendly survey by his own consulting firm pegged the number at 46 percent, hardly a resounding vote of confidence.

It’s not just his frequent trips to places like Iowa, New Hampshire, and Washington, D.C., that have angered his constituents. (He spent 165 days out of state in 2014, according to The Advocate newspaper.) Nor is it only his odd forays into international and national affairs, from the tall tales in London about Muslim no-go zones, to his op-ed in The New York Times accusing companies that oppose religious freedom laws inspired by the spread of gay marriage of forming an unholy alliance with the “radical liberals.” It’s not even his need to bask in the Robertsons’ reflected glory.

More than any of that, his constituents are frustrated that their governor can’t be bothered to do his day job—and when he does, that his actions are often transparently designed to build a national profile rather than meet Louisiana’s needs.

That’s clear in his refusal to take federal money to expand Medicaid—which, of course, would mean acknowledging there are benefits to Obama’s health care law. But nowhere is it more obvious, or more damaging, than in Jindal’s stewardship of fiscal affairs.

Jindal chalks up the current budget shortfall to the drop in oil prices, and that’s definitely contributed. A larger piece of the puzzle has been his determination to maintain a pure record on taxes.

Jindal hasn’t always been reckless about taxation. In the midst of a budget surplus early in his first term, Jindal tried to quietly head off the Legislature’s move to roll back a big income tax increase that had been enacted several years earlier. It was only after lawmakers seemed like they might eliminate the income tax entirely that he got on board with the rollback, and he soon was boasting that he’d signed the biggest tax cut in state history.

The first real glimpse of the future came in 2011 when Jindal fought tooth and nail against extending a temporary four-cent levy on the state’s cigarette tax—at 36 cents, including the levy, the third lowest in the nation. His reasoning? If the tax rate is scheduled to automatically drop and the state acts to prevent that from happening, it amounts to an effective tax increase.

The stance left his constituents cold, but impressed Grover Norquist of Americans for Tax Reform (ATR), who would endorse Jindal as Mitt Romney’s running mate the following year.

Even Republicans Are Bristling

These days it’s hard to think of anyone who has as much influence over what Jindal’s willing to do than Norquist, whose rigid rules for what constitutes a tax increase line up perfectly with Jindal’s. In practice, that means the governor has insisted that the budget be balanced without tax increases, despite the prospect of devastating cuts to higher education and health care, the two main areas that don’t enjoy constitutional or statutory protection.

And it means some revenue-enhancing ideas the Republican-dominated Legislature might support, specifically a reexamination of giveaways to specific industries, are off limits—because eliminating a tax exemption without an offset that reduces another tax or cuts spending, according to ATR, is raising a tax.

That’s how the inventory tax wound up in everyone’s crosshairs, despite the fact that eliminating the rebate but not the underlying tax would hurt businesses, and getting rid of the tax would devastate some parishes (that’s Louisiana for county). Many companies, it turns out, receive rebate checks that exceed their state tax liability, and in Jindal’s view that makes eliminating the payouts a spending cut, not a tax increase. “Corporate welfare,” he labeled it in his opening address to the Legislature, prompting chuckles from those who’ve watched him promote business incentives for years.

In fact, perhaps the most remarkable aspect of the frustration with Jindal is that it transcends partisanship.

It’s not just the Democrats who are bristling. It’s many a Republican.

NOTHING LEFT TO CUT
Republicans who belong to an informal group dubbed the “fiscal hawks” have been sharply critical of Jindal’s reliance over the years on one-time money transfers and accounting gimmicks to balance the budget without making even deeper cuts.

One reason everything’s hitting the fan is there’s not much left. Gone are $800 million from the Medicaid Trust Fund for the Elderly and $450 million for providing development incentives, and the rainy day fund has dropped from $730 million to $460 million on his watch.

Republicans like state Rep. Jay Morris, who, after hearing Jindal’s vow to veto any measure that didn’t have Grover Norquist’s blessing, declared the approach “insane.” And like state Sen. Jack Donahue, who chairs the Finance Committee and who passed a bill last year seeking to determine how much the state spends on tax exemptions, only to watch Jindal veto it.

And perhaps most tellingly, the Republicans running to replace Jindal in this fall’s election. All three—Lt. Governor Jay Dardenne, U.S. Senator David Vitter and Public Service Commissioner (and former Jindal aide) Scott Angelle—say they will look for a way to accept the Medicaid money and take a open-minded approach to examining tax exemptions.

“What this state needs right now is a leader solely focused on Louisiana,” Dardenne said in a recent speech. And in a clear swipe at Norquist, he added that, “I represent the people of Louisiana; I don’t represent someone who lives in D.C.”


And Vitter said he’d take a good, hard look at tax incentives and other giveaways, even if it means raising revenue.

“Gov. Jindal should be doing this now,” he pointedly said. “I’ll do it the minute I’m sworn in.”
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,659
136
Even if Kansas does raise taxes I seriously doubt it will be any where near what states such as Connecticut taxes their citizens and businesses. Looks like this latest proposed tax hike may cause major businesses to move from the state. Maybe they will consider moving to Kansas.

http://www.courant.com/politics/cap...tes-liquor-changes-20150601-story.html#page=1

And yet Connecticut has a GDP per capita that's about 35% higher than Kansas. Maybe Kansas should consider raising taxes to Connecticut levels? That's a pretty huge disparity.

Of course that's kind of a silly argument too. Each state has different needs and therefore should set its taxes differently. Kansas's problem is that they ignored the needs of their state and decided to set tax levels according to ideology.

All I wish we would get out of this is to permanently bury the nonsense where conservatives try to argue that tax cuts set off this explosive growth that pays for most of (or in some cases all!) of the fiscal cost of the tax cuts. They don't. I have little faith that conservatives will wake up from this delusion, unfortunately.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Even if Kansas does raise taxes I seriously doubt it will be any where near what states such as Connecticut taxes their citizens and businesses. Looks like this latest proposed tax hike may cause major businesses to move from the state. Maybe they will consider moving to Kansas.

http://www.courant.com/politics/cap...tes-liquor-changes-20150601-story.html#page=1

You misunderstand. The tax cuts weren't really intended to bring money to Kansas but rather as a way to take money out.

See that blip in Kansas revenue at 2014 tax time in Atreus 21's Pew link? That's the big boys cashing out their business reserves. Where did the money go? Anywhere they want, apparently not Kansas.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
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It's probably a good thing they get federal highway funds. Otherwise, I-70 might end up as a cow path across Kansas.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,862
7,396
136
Seems like the overall Repub plan is to bring state gov'ts down to its knees and gut them all out to a hollow shell. From there, the folks who own those Repub legislators who committed the atrocities are free to practically do whatever they want with the states they conquered.

All revenues collected by those states will have the cream off the top taken by the "owners" of those states and whatever loose change is left is to be distributed in such a way so as to keep the hollow shell from collapsing on itself.

All legal, and the only folks that suffer are the very ones who worship the "owners" and let them get away with looting their states down to the last red cent in the gov't coffers.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
All I wish we would get out of this is to permanently bury the nonsense where conservatives try to argue that tax cuts set off this explosive growth that pays for most of (or in some cases all!) of the fiscal cost of the tax cuts. They don't. I have little faith that conservatives will wake up from this delusion, unfortunately.

Well, yeh, but it's important to realize that tax cuts & other measures *have* set off explosive growth in the .01% share of national income by taking it from middle & lower incomes.

Who do you think runs the well funded & well oiled right wing propaganda machine, anyway? Grassroots? Hardly.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
11,554
7,978
136
Seems like the overall Repub plan is to bring state gov'ts down to its knees and gut them all out to a hollow shell. From there, the folks who own those Repub legislators who committed the atrocities are free to practically do whatever they want with the states they conquered.

All revenues collected by those states will have the cream off the top taken by the "owners" of those states and whatever loose change is left is to be distributed in such a way so as to keep the hollow shell from collapsing on itself.

All legal, and the only folks that suffer are the very ones who worship the "owners" and let them get away with looting their states down to the last red cent in the gov't coffers.

LOL, The GOP plan is always to privatize everything, getting cronies to run it into the ground, cutting food stamps/ pell grants/ taxes on the rich/ medicaid/ medicare, access to programs for everyone else, raising low & middle income peoples taxes & fees, then railing about how Government doesn't work... all the while screaming about how LBGT folks are out to molest everyone's children, and causing every natural disaster for not obeying god's commandments.

It works beautifully for the top income earners who have tax loopholes, and their servants (the news anchors on Fox News), but it does not work for people making under a million dollars a year.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,862
7,396
136
LOL, The GOP plan is always to privatize everything, getting cronies to run it into the ground, cutting food stamps/ pell grants/ taxes on the rich/ medicaid/ medicare, access to programs for everyone else, raising low & middle income peoples taxes & fees, then railing about how Government doesn't work... all the while screaming about how LBGT folks are out to molest everyone's children, and causing every natural disaster for not obeying god's commandments.

It works beautifully for the top income earners who have tax loopholes, and their servants (the news anchors on Fox News), but it does not work for people making under a million dollars a year.

That's just about it in a nutshell. But hey, those conservatives who voted for having their states being ransacked by the looters they allowed to run amok in their state's treasuries still get to show off their high tech firearms and matching clothing accessories wherever they like, keep the unions from bargaining for better pay and benefits for them, keep their poor and needy in their place (like out of any voting booth for example), keep their voter ID laws and gerrymandering intact, keep the illegal immigrants from "taking over the country", keep Christianity as the "chosen" religion of the nation and all that other really REALLY important stuff that takes precedence over having their middle class and poor have a chance for a better life.

Now that's how you spread prosperity and increase the quality of life.......for the very rich. ;)
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,045
30,333
136
Brownback calls for raising sales tax to 6.65%, eliminating itemized deductions and raising cigarette tax $0.50 per pack. Clearly this guy isn't conservative enough. Kansas should vote this RINO out.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,702
507
126
The GOP believes government doesn't work, so every time they get into power, they set about to try and prove that hypothesis, generally by breaking government.

^Pretty much this.

And gullible middle class voters still believe that the party whose members in the main serve the interests of the very well off who want less taxes are interested in their well being.

Sadly though the democratic party also has many members who are bought off. Just look at the fast track approval in the Senate for Obamatrade....

Their are some democratic party members who do speak to the best interests of the middle class. Sadly they don't get as much press as those who are more amendable to the wishes of the banksters who only get fined for crimes which would land regular people in jail for decades.

.....
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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What I am not seeing is any reflection by Republican politicians on the failures of their policies in real life. I mean normal responsible people analyze the results of their prior actions and learn lessons for the future. Not seeing any of that from the GOP, the same policy prescriptions that have repeatedly failed for 30+ years are still being proposed and supported.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,517
15,399
136
What I am not seeing is any reflection by Republican politicians on the failures of their policies in real life. I mean normal responsible people analyze the results of their prior actions and learn lessons for the future. Not seeing any of that from the GOP, the same policy prescriptions that have repeatedly failed for 30+ years are still being proposed and supported.


You are witnessing, in real time, CBD in action.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
What I am not seeing is any reflection by Republican politicians on the failures of their policies in real life. I mean normal responsible people analyze the results of their prior actions and learn lessons for the future. Not seeing any of that from the GOP, the same policy prescriptions that have repeatedly failed for 30+ years are still being proposed and supported.

What do they have to reflect on? Those policies have made a fair number of conservative businessmen and politicians a shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitload of money. "I better stop supporting these billionaires who have made me a millionaire and instead help these poor people who can't give me diddly squat but will vote me out of office the second a billionaire tells them to" said no politician ever. What's the incentive to change a system that has led these people to greater wealth than they could have ever imagined? Morality doesn't pay the bills, and it turns out yachts can get expensive.