To any theologians here...

[Orsorum]

This is a serious question, one that I'm putting a lot of thought into and trying to figure out an answer to. I would appreciate it if people would refrain from shouting NART or flaming... it's useless and a waste of everyone's time.

A close friend of mine emailed this question to me a couple of hours ago, and I have to admit, this is an issue that I have grappled with for years, as a Christian.

"It's funny, but I'm leaning more and more away from the idea of man essentially having free will. At some points it seems like man has none, and at others it seems as if there is no way that he could be without. The whole idea, however, is forcing me to evaluate a whole different view of God. In some ways, it seems that if God chooses not to draw everyone to Himself, that makes God sick and unjust. I realize that it isn't reasonable for me to judge God's justice; that it is an act of complete arrogance, but how can I do otherwise? How can God create everything and then discriminate within that creation that which will be restored?
I don't understand why original sin should have the power to pervade every human existance. I can only conclude it is the decision of God.
I don't understand why evil has to exist at all.
I don't understand why God chose me, either. I've done nothing. I have no identity apart from God. I could have no identity other than what God has chosen for me. But if I had no choice in my calling, why do I now have a choice in obedience? It seems cruel that I've been brought into that most beautiful of relationships only to be subject to a nature that tries to ruin it at every opportunity. I can, daily, walk through a crowd of empty souls. Is it God's will that His message is not preached by me? I can't see that it is."

Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas?

 

[Smaulz]

Oh jeez, yeah, I know exactly what he's talking about. However, it's currently a quarter after 1AM and I've gotta be up way early. I'll post tomorrow. Gnite

 

[Orsorum]

<< Oh jeez, yeah, I know exactly what he's talking about. However, it's currently a quarter after 1AM and I've gotta be up way early. I'll post tomorrow. Gnite >>



Hehe, awesome... no rush. Thanks for giving it thought, regardless.

Sleep well, dude.

 

[travler]

Tell him to pick up an intro to philosophy book. or better yet take such a class at a university. these questions have been adressed for a long time.

after geting through those, you can ask the question again, and then you will start to get somewhere.

 

[Orsorum]

<< Tell him to pick up an intro to philosophy book. or better yet take such a class at a university. these questions have been adressed for a long time.

after geting through those, you can ask the question again, and then you will start to get somewhere. >>



He is taking some of those classes right now, and it's still a difficult question to answer, from a Christian's perspective. You have any thoughts?

 

[travler]

My thoughts?

well God made us in his image to have free will. Thus the whole father thing. If you were a parent would you rather have a kid who came out of a prefab mold? or would you rather he be independant? would you rather guide him, or subvert him to your will?

as to why God wants to do any of this? some things are a mystery, but as a human, wouldnt you derive great joy from knowing that other people get to experience the wonder that you do?

this is the best I can do at this hour. I think I have better papers archived.

 

[rgwalt]

As humans we always have a choice: Life or death. That is what it comes down to in the end. We either chose a relationship with God, or we chose an eternal death. How can we ask God why? How can we ask the supreme creator what His motivations are? At times it seems unfair, but we were created to be in a relationship with God. That is why we exist. That relationship would mean nothing at all without free will. He wants us to chose to be with Him. At times, it may seem like we have no choice, but we do. I suppose I don't have the answer to all of your friend's questions.

Ryan

 

[Orsorum]

<< My thoughts?

well God made us in his image to have free will. Thus the whole father thing. If you were a parent would you rather have a kid who came out of a prefab mold? or would you rather he be independant? would you rather guide him, or subvert him to your will?

as to why God wants to do any of this? some things are a mystery, but as a human, wouldnt you derive great joy from knowing that other people get to experience the wonder that you do?

this is the best I can do at this hour. I think I have better papers archived. >>



Either way, thanks for your input. I appreciate it.

If God created us with free will, then what of God's omnipotence? There are some specific points in my friend's letter that are just throwing me for a complete loop... argh.

 

[Orsorum]

<< As humans we always have a choice: Life or death. That is what it comes down to in the end. We either chose a relationship with God, or we chose an eternal death. How can we ask God why? How can we ask the supreme creator what His motivations are? At times it seems unfair, but we were created to be in a relationship with God. That is why we exist. That relationship would mean nothing at all without free will. He wants us to chose to be with Him. At times, it may seem like we have no choice, but we do. I suppose I don't have the answer to all of your friend's questions.

Ryan >>



Thank you for your input... I appreciate it.

I'm going to let this thread (hopefully) live for a couple days, see what input I get, then reply to my friend's email.

 

[PlatinumGold]

I'm not going to try and respond to your questions one at a time. just imagine this scenario.

Lets say God exists. He exists Alone. In a Universe / Existence / Whatever that exists w/ 1 will and 1 will only and that will is an ALL POWERFUL will wouldn't EVERYTHING in this Universe / Existence / Whatever be a COMPLETE EXTENSION of His WILL?

So into this existence He creates a BEING of FREE WILL. lets start w/ Angels (Lucifer if you please). What would be the purpose of that creation if that creature did not have free will? or to phrase it another way, in that Universe / Existence / Whatever could making more planets, trees, flowers, stars etc etc be considered an act of CREATION? in my opinion NO. because it is all still just the COMPLETE extension of His will. so now he CREATES, by creation FREE WILL must be implied. if he makes another being that is a complete EXTENSION of His will how can you call it CREATION?

so He begins to CREATE. he created the angels, he created Man. (for this discussion let's not get into the literal vs figurative creation story debate)

As God is creating, Lucifer notices something. He notices that for all GOD'S power, he doesn't force beings to do what he (lucifer) considers best. now,we have the beginnings of sin (like evangelicals trying to force their view of God on others ). What is Lucifers Sin? well, ezekiel says, Lucifer placed himself ABOVE the most high GOD. in God's Universe, all beings are created as HIS MORAL equals. In Lucifers Universe, There must be ONE above all others. Lucifer wanted that ONE to be GOD, because Lucifer isn't stupid, He recognizes that God the MOST POWERFUL being in existence. So Lucifer goes about to PROVE to the Universe that his theory is better than GOD's.

what are the 2 competing ideas here? God wants a universe of MORAL equals, each weaving his own little web and GOD orchestrating the efforts of EACH and creating an Amazing QUILT. Lucifer wants a more controled universe, A Universe of Hierarchy.

So the lines are Drawn. the Test subjects are the next race that GOD creates, It just happens to be Adam and Eve. (again, i have no desire to debate whether it is a Literal Adam and Eve or a Figurative one I really don't think it makes a difference w/ regards to the point i'm making here) So God creates Adam and Eve and gives them FREE reign over the Garden of Eden. Then there is the story of that Infamous apple.

but rewind a sec. what separated Adam and Eve from God, was it the act of Disobedience? (this is where most people are mistaken in my opinion) NO. it wasn't the Disobedience, but the SHIFTING of responsibility. Adam says to God, not me Lord, HER. Eve says to God, not me Lord, The SERPENT. and hence Adam and Eve surrender their free will, Their Spirit have you, to the Serpent. again, the way I read it, when GOD breathed the SPIRIT into man to make him ALIVE It wasn't PHYSICAL LIFE that was being IMPARTED (that had already been done by the clay) but a SPIRITUAL life. From the moment Adam and EVE surrendered their freedom/accountability/spirit to Satan, they were spiritually dead. That was the Fruit of their act of refusing to accept responsibility for their actions.

So here is the Definition of SIN, Sin = NO SPIRIT, Separation from GOD. It is the very same SPIRIT that Jesus speaks of in John 3. this very same Spirit by which we are BORN AGAIN.

no crux of this w/o being BORN AGAIN, you don't have FREE WILL. oh sure, u can choose between blue jeans and khakis. oh sure you can choose between taking the bus and riding the taxi, but you don't have the freedom to determine your spiritual Destiny. It isn't until the Spirit (which moves like the wind) is reborn in YOU that you again have free will.

i know this was a bit long winded I hope it helps.

 

[Orsorum]

Platinum - some good points, unique interpretation of Genesis. Thanks!

 

[PlatinumGold]

zakath

another interesting study is to study Pistos in the New Testaments. Pistos is the greek word for the Verb Faith not a noun like we use in english. in the greek the word Pistos was only used when talking about a relationship between man and the Divine. Unfortunately the word gets watered down a lot in the translation and we talk in terms of faith and belief. unfortunately we use those words for so many other things that they lose their original meaning.

if you study Pistos in the New Testaments you'll find some interesting trends.

 

[Orsorum]

<< zakath

another interesting study is to study Pistos in the New Testaments. Pistos is the greek word for the Verb Faith not a noun like we use in english. in the greek the word Pistos was only used when talking about a relationship between man and the Divine. Unfortunately the word gets watered down a lot in the translation and we talk in terms of faith and belief. unfortunately we use those words for so many other things that they lose their original meaning.

if you study Pistos in the New Testaments you'll find some interesting trends. >>



Hmmm.... any links?

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< Hmmm.... any links? >>



good question. i've never looked any of this up on the internet before. i did most of this study before the World Wide Web.

 

[Orsorum]

<<

<< Hmmm.... any links? >>



good question. i've never looked any of this up on the internet before. i did most of this study before the World Wide Web. >>



Probably with a greater degree of reliability, too.

 

[Ameesh]

maybe there is no God and your friend has no reason to feel confused.

 

[Entity]

<< I don't understand why evil has to exist at all. >>


This question - referred to as the problem of theodicy - takes up journals upon journals of information. Here's a great page:

The Problem of Evil and Suffering

Your friend may want to look specifically into the philosophies of Alfred Whitehead and Process Theology.

Rob

 

[Orsorum]

<< maybe there is no God and your friend has no reason to feel confused. >>



Thanks for your input. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

 

[Orsorum]

<<

<< I don't understand why evil has to exist at all. >>


This question, in and of itself, takes up journals upon journals of information. Here's a great page:

The Problem of Evil and Suffering

Your friend may want to look specifically into the philosophies of Alfred Whitehead and Process Theology.

Rob >>



Awesome! Thanks for the link!

 

[Entity]

Creation Out Of Chaos And The Problem Of Evil - by David Griffin

I also highly recommend anything by this author.

 

[Orsorum]

<< Creation Out Of Chaos And The Problem Of Evil - by David Griffin

I also highly recommend anything by this author. >>



I'll read that tomorrow... *sigh* I'm so tired right now..

 

[petrek]

Sounds to me that your friend is thinking on "many are called, few are choosen" among other verses and forgetting that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for correction, for reproof, and for instruction in righteousness" and that "no scripture is of private interpretation", wherein he would also read that "God whist that none should perish" and that the knowledge of God is written on the hearts of all men. (If I may, a study of Roman's sounds in order)

The reason why evil exists is because God gave his created beings free will, thus some choose to believe that they were/are better than God, and for this reason evil exists.

He did have a choice.

Dave

 

[linuxboy]

Ah, Whitehead and Griffin. They're good guys.

Drats, I'm trying to search for the free will thread Athanasius posted about 1.2 years ago and I can't find it.

Zakath, I'll post a reply to this later today if I find a moment.

Cheers !

 

[db]

It's all about choice. Choice is your blessing and your curse.
Why? Because by chosing, there is a result from that choice. You experience the results of that choice, and so do others. You learn or you don't learn from your choices and experiences. And you can't cop out by not choosing, b/c that too is a choice.

And what feels better and is more appreciated: something nice that you worked or struggled for, or the same thing that was simply handed to you?
There's nothing like walking the walk (experience) as a way of learning and appreciating.

I don't know what God's purpose is for having us here. Maybe she's lonely. Maybe she wants to experience herself through watching us grow and evolve.
Maybe she is so full of love that she wants many, rather than just herself, to ultimately have a wonderful and beautiful existance too. Maybe just 'being' is not so great; rather, experiencing all things is really living in the fullest sense.

You can read everybody and everything on philosophy and religion, and that's fine. But do not just choose someone elses' viewpoint afterall; you are the one to decide for yourself what makes sense to you.

I do believe this: God did not put us here to torture us or make our lives horrible. That is our choice.

 

[Orsorum]

bump, seeing if anyone has any new comments.