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TN panels are as bad as everyone says they are and then some...

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Synomenon

Lifer
Dec 25, 2004
10,532
6
81
i've generally been against TN panel bashing- they do their job and most consumers would never notice the difference between one and an IPS or PVA monitor. most all the TN panels from around when i bought my 21" S-PVA gateway looked adequate if not pretty good.

well, fastfoward about three or four years, and holy shit i'm displeased...my gateway died, and i went to best buy today and picked up a 23" LG (W2343T).

first problem is that the stand, in addition to not even having a damned tilt adjustment (ridiculous), is not removable- so i bolt up my VESA-compatible stand from the gateway (tilts, telescopes, and rotates on two axes), with the stupid nub for the stock stand hanging out the bottom...and i can't even use it, because the monitor is too light for the spring-loaded mechanisms in the old stand. a two-inch increase in size leading to probably a 50% reduction in weight was my first tip-off that this wasn't going to go swimmingly.

so i turn it on, and the picture on this thing is atrocious. there is precisely one position where i can put my head and kind of see the entire monitor without horrible color shifting. one inch in any direction, and it's awful. add that to the fact that i've been using it for under and hour and my eyes are already sore (never happened with the other monitor, or my previous 19" samsung (TN)).

ugh, i apologize to anyone who ever said that all TN panels are crap, because apparently that's what they have become. i'm going to order an E-IPS or something and take this thing back.

Sounds to me like most of your complaints are faults with the specific monitor. Most people sit in front of the monitor so regarding viewing angles, TN is just fine. Most people don't do professional photographic work so regarding colors, TN is just fine.

I have a Dell U2410 and a Dell G2410 next to each other. One is an IPS monitor and the other is a TN monitor. Both look just fine to me and to everyone else that has used my PC. The G2410 (TN monitor) sits in a position that when being used, is directly in the user's line of sight.

You just have to position them properly.
 

Clinkster

Senior member
Aug 5, 2009
937
0
76
I played Mirror's Edge the other day and I didn't like it ahahahha all video games suck and the players who like them too.
 

Zensal

Senior member
Jan 18, 2005
740
0
0
Your old monitor looked great for the same reason you will never see a 30" TN monitor. The viewing angles suck. On a small sub-19" screen, this is less of an issue because you have the entire monitor directly in front of you. Once you start moving past 20" or so, this ceases to happen. You can no longer have the entire monitor in front of you because of it's size. The top will get darker and the bottom lighter, along with some color shift. This is also exacerbated by the new fad of cheap, large monitors. Quality gets sacrificed in the name of cheaper prices.

TN is fine for most things, just like cheap ear buds are fine for most people and DVDs looks fine on an HDTV. Just remember that their are much better alternatives out there for more money, especially now that we are starting to see e-IPS screens.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
My Acer X223w is TN...awesome display...above average viewing angles (havent found one within reason that looks bad) as well as superb contrasts and colors. No problems here.

To the OP...you just got a bad monitor or cheap one...not all TN panels are created equally!
I have that Acer but just replaced it with a Samsung (also a TN) and it makes the Acer look baaaadddd.

But we are arguing a very subjective matter here, and if you like your stuff, awesome, if not get something else. You guys should see the absolutely atrocious screen on my netbook. Holy crap, talk about getting what you pay for...
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,063
495
126
Really sounds like you bought a piece of shit TN. I am using two 24" TN panels right now and they are fine. I wouldnt say as nice as an I-IPS but honestly they arent bad either.
 

EnzoLT

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2005
1,843
4
91
My Acer X223w is TN...awesome display...above average viewing angles (havent found one within reason that looks bad) as well as superb contrasts and colors. No problems here.

To the OP...you just got a bad monitor or cheap one...not all TN panels are created equally!
I have the X233H version and its not bad at all. nothing wrong with TN panels personally.
 

brblx

Diamond Member
Mar 23, 2009
5,499
1
0
well, i took my gateway apart today.

there's a bank of like eight caps on the board that has the circuitry for the power input. like four of them are bulging badly. according to some random googlings, this is a problem with all these monitors and apparently causes the problems i'm experiencing with it.

so i'm gonna go to radioshack tomorrow and just get eight new caps. if that does it, it'll be about a ten dollar fix.

i still might pick up the dell monitor, but at least this way i can wait until it's on sale again.
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,080
1,218
126
blanket trollism, you f4!L

There are plenty of decent TN panels out there. No one is going to argue that they have better colors than S-PVA or e-IPS panels, but that doesn't mean all of them have crap colors. If you read the review on AT regarding the issue you'd find that some TN panels don't do all that bad in color testings, plus they have faster response rates than PVA and IPS, which is crucial to gamers.

And to clarify the response time thing. True, 60Hz = 16~ ms frames, but the response time doesn't just pertain to that. The most noticeable effects of a slower response time is ghosting, which has little to do with how fast the frames are appearing, and more to do with how slow/fast they are dissapearing. In that regard, PVA panels are slower than TN.

Ignoring budget constraints, sure I'd like to have a PVA or ips panel, but TN does nicely for economy and gaming displays. Most of us aren't too picky about color accuracy, and even within TN panels that could vary quite a bit depending on manufacturer.
I'm sorry but no. I have a 30" ips, a 24" m-pva and a 19" & 22" TN. The TNs are horrid in comparison. Not just the viewing angles are abysmal, the colours are horrible, no matter how you situate yourself the screen does not look uniform.

There is no comparison. Again, TNs are garbage.
 

dflynchimp

Senior member
Apr 11, 2007
468
0
71
I'm sorry but no. I have a 30" ips, a 24" m-pva and a 19" & 22" TN. The TNs are horrid in comparison. Not just the viewing angles are abysmal, the colours are horrible, no matter how you situate yourself the screen does not look uniform.

There is no comparison. Again, TNs are garbage.
Assuming you own a 30inch isp, budget clearly is not much of a concern for you. Kudos to having a fatter wallet than the rest of us.

Did I argue that TN can compare to ISP and PVA panel in color reproduction or viewing angles? Nope.

Or I must've forgotten to mention that TN's are economic choices? Oh wait yeah I did. Get off your elitist pedestal. Or maybe it is as they say, one man's garbage, another's treasure.
 

Zensal

Senior member
Jan 18, 2005
740
0
0
Assuming you own a 30inch isp, budget clearly is not much of a concern for you. Kudos to having a fatter wallet than the rest of us.

Did I argue that TN can compare to ISP and PVA panel in color reproduction or viewing angles? Nope.

Or I must've forgotten to mention that TN's are economic choices? Oh wait yeah I did. Get off your elitist pedestal. Or maybe it is as they say, one man's garbage, another's treasure.
First off, it's IPS(in-plane switching), not ISP.

I saved for 2 years to buy my 2005fpw. I am now saving up for 3 x 2209wa monitors(subject to change upon better product releases). Does the fact that I have impulse control and save to buy expensive things make me a snob also? No. Maybe he has a 30" monitor because it's his passion in life and it makes him happy, so he saved for an extended period of time. Maybe he drives an old beater or doesn't eat out just so he can have his 30" monitor. Just because someone has expensive things doesn't make them rich. It just might they know what they want and go for it.

Just about everyone who know anything about LCD panels will recommend a IPS over a TN, especially now that there are some cheaper e-IPS panels out there. The OP obviously had complaints about viewing angles and color reproduction. Therefore, a non-TN panel would be his best bet.

Sometimes the economical choice is going with something that will do its job properly and be something you enjoy for years to come.
 

Winterpool

Senior member
Mar 1, 2008
830
0
0
Anyone who's endured a 100+ page display thread on Hard|Forum knows how anal retentive we display snobs can be, particularly the IPS subspecies. Some of us seem to return half a dozen monitors before we get one that satisfies us. It's no wonder Dell et al are tightening their return / replacement criteria.

I don't think there's a perfect flat-panel display technology (at least, not till we get OLED, heh). Qualite plasma probably comes closest, though the energy usage can be extreme, and there don't seem to be any plasma displays below 42-inches, which pretty much puts paid to the computer market. LCDs of course have mediocre blacks and often uniformity issues. I bought a Sony 46V5100 at Best Buy earlier this month, and though it's a fine TV, when I switch the room lights off, the uneven backlight 'clouding' is terribly apparent to my eyes in the upper-left corner. I don't think I'll ever be able to 'unsee' it now. It may have to be returned.

Right now, LG.Display is exhibiting atrocious quality control, and it seems the majority of IPS panels out there suffer from colour or light uniformity issues (the big one is the tint shifting horizontally). So even buying IPS doesn't guarantee one will be happy with an LCD monitor.

We see what we see. I can't tell anyone what they're seeing or what they should be un/happy with. The vast majority of HDTVs are PVA or MVA, yet many punters are able to game on them. The vast majority of workplace monitors are TN, yet sararimen seem to get their TPS reports done without going blind.

Other than my MacBook Pro, my personal displays are IPS or CRT. At work, however, we have smallish Dell UltraSharps with TN panels, and there are quite a few images that can't resolve properly on them, no matter how much I play with the contrast, backlight, viewing angle, etc. I'm not a graphics professional, so this has no actual relevance to my work, but it's a constant annoyance all the same. If I had a permanent workstation, I'd probably bring my own display -- why spend hundreds of hours a month looking at rubbish?

That said, I've never seen the good TN displays (ASUS, BenQ, etc); perhaps they're perfectly fine. However, unless one is a twitch gamer or needs the biggest display for the buck, why not get IPS or PVA? They've become much more affordable recently, not just the Dell 2209WA, but the NEC EA231WMi (23 inches, 1920x1080, sRGB) is also available sometimes for less than $300.
 

Cookie Monster

Diamond Member
May 7, 2005
5,161
32
86
Ive always thought TN panels were not too bad, til I got myself this Dell 2209WA. I use it with my Samsung 226BW in dual monitor setup. Funny thing is that I tend to look more at the Dell 2209WA than my Samsung monitor. The color difference alone to me is almost night and day. I dont think Ill ever go back to a TN monitor (just like how one cannot go back to a slower PC), and probably getting myself another 2209WA (are they discontinued?).
 

brblx

Diamond Member
Mar 23, 2009
5,499
1
0
Anyone who's endured a 100+ page display thread on Hard|Forum knows how anal retentive we display snobs can be, particularly the IPS subspecies. Some of us seem to return half a dozen monitors before we get one that satisfies us. It's no wonder Dell et al are tightening their return / replacement criteria.
see, this is the thing- i got my fpd2185 used, before i even knew that it was s-pva. i just knew it looked good, and at the time, the $250 i paid for it, lightly used, was a good price on a 21 or 22" monitor.

i'm not really a display snob- or, at least, i didn't think i was, until i tried to get a new monitor. i've done some more looking around just do not think there is a TN that will satisfy me.

that said- i fixed my monitor :awe: :awe: :awe: :awe:

after trips to two different radio shacks, i was only able to scrounge 7 470uF caps. i needed to replace a bank of eight. so i said fuck it and just replaced the four caps that were bulging, and i'll be damned if the thing isn't working perfectly now.

at least now i know some things- like that i hate TN and i hate 16:9.
 

Winterpool

Senior member
Mar 1, 2008
830
0
0
Bravo! Congrats on fixing your display.

I really ought to learn the basics of replacing capacitors, as they so often seem to be the source of consumer electronics failures. I've read about punters fixing HDTVs with a few dollars' worth of caps; a layman would simply have had to buy a whole new TV (are there affordable repair shops any more?)...
 

brblx

Diamond Member
Mar 23, 2009
5,499
1
0
i do know someone who had a large CRT TV go out recently, and it was fixed with a cap. i think the repair guy charged about a hundred bucks to replace it on site. not bad, imo.

i've dabbled in electronics and have had some experience replacing caps, transistors, and other parts. it's really not that hard, unless you're working on a very delicate piece. the hard part is actually finding out what the problem is; in this case, i got lucky and there was a problem that i could see.

i used a basic $20 electric iron to do the work. not adjustable, but it seems to get up to the proper temp without going overboard (like often happens when i'm using my butane iron- but that's more just for wire repairs). you just heat the solder underneath the PCB and pull the old cap off. stick the new one through, trim the legs, and put a dab of new solder on it. that's it. as long as the polarity is right, and you don't make your solder joints too big (so as to short against something else), it should work. i've heard than some complex PCB's may be damaged by too much heat, but have not yet run into this.

i'm strong in basic electricity (i work on newer model cars for a living) but am definately lost when it comes to electronics- frankly i don't even know what the caps i replaced do, though i'd love to know more about the theory of this stuff.
 

Zoomer

Senior member
Dec 1, 1999
257
0
71
yeah, that's the one. though i wish you could still get it for 209 or 219 or whatever it was before.
You might. Give this Dell sales rep a try:
Christa_Ford@dell.com or 512-946-0448

$212 + tax shipped with 3 year warranty.

after trips to two different radio shacks, i was only able to scrounge 7 470uF caps. i needed to replace a bank of eight. so i said fuck it and just replaced the four caps that were bulging, and i'll be damned if the thing isn't working perfectly now.

at least now i know some things- like that i hate TN and i hate 16:9.
Get them online! And yes, 16:9 is the devil.
 

Yuriman

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2004
5,530
141
106
It's an older panel, but it's consistently good. I have yet to find a better screen for the price.

BenQ FP241w - $275 + SH
http://www.benqshopper.com/rlcdmo.html

I've seen it side-by-side with a 2408WFP (both color-calibrated), and it's a superior screen despite being several years old, though I hear the newer Dell 24's have improved.

IMO, Dell 2409 (PVA) < BenQ FP241w (MVA) and other screens with the same panel < 2410w (E-IPS)

Just a question of whether the extra price justifies the IPS.
 

Ben90

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2009
2,866
2
0
Just a question of whether the extra price justifies the IPS.
Honestly its completely up to the purchaser, while the majority of people get boners for IPS displays, i wouldn't use one even if someone payed me $100 to use a 30" IPS as my only monitor for one year. 120hz @ 1680x1050 for me.
 

Zensal

Senior member
Jan 18, 2005
740
0
0
Just a question of whether the extra price justifies the IPS.
It used to be a very steep price premium, but lately with the 2209wa and the NEC EA231WMi the price seems to be much lower. You can get the 2209wa for as little as $220.

Now the 30" models....that's a different story.
 

brblx

Diamond Member
Mar 23, 2009
5,499
1
0
i'm sure PC and console games both look great at 1080p on just about any TN. and 120hz helps with PC gaming for sure (don't know about consoles, i'd figure they're locked in at a lower frequency), and is not available on any IPS panels.

so if those are your primary concerns, YES, go TN. personally, have the slightly slower response of a *VA or IPS panel and possible input lag associated with internal circuitry as a tradeoff for a far better desktop (i.e. apps/internet) experience.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,386
3
81
Anyone who's endured a 100+ page display thread on Hard|Forum knows how anal retentive we display snobs can be, particularly the IPS subspecies. Some of us seem to return half a dozen monitors before we get one that satisfies us. It's no wonder Dell et al are tightening their return / replacement criteria.

I don't think there's a perfect flat-panel display technology (at least, not till we get OLED, heh). Qualite plasma probably comes closest, though the energy usage can be extreme, and there don't seem to be any plasma displays below 42-inches, which pretty much puts paid to the computer market. LCDs of course have mediocre blacks and often uniformity issues. I bought a Sony 46V5100 at Best Buy earlier this month, and though it's a fine TV, when I switch the room lights off, the uneven backlight 'clouding' is terribly apparent to my eyes in the upper-left corner. I don't think I'll ever be able to 'unsee' it now. It may have to be returned.

Right now, LG.Display is exhibiting atrocious quality control, and it seems the majority of IPS panels out there suffer from colour or light uniformity issues (the big one is the tint shifting horizontally). So even buying IPS doesn't guarantee one will be happy with an LCD monitor.

We see what we see. I can't tell anyone what they're seeing or what they should be un/happy with. The vast majority of HDTVs are PVA or MVA, yet many punters are able to game on them. The vast majority of workplace monitors are TN, yet sararimen seem to get their TPS reports done without going blind.

Other than my MacBook Pro, my personal displays are IPS or CRT. At work, however, we have smallish Dell UltraSharps with TN panels, and there are quite a few images that can't resolve properly on them, no matter how much I play with the contrast, backlight, viewing angle, etc. I'm not a graphics professional, so this has no actual relevance to my work, but it's a constant annoyance all the same. If I had a permanent workstation, I'd probably bring my own display -- why spend hundreds of hours a month looking at rubbish?

That said, I've never seen the good TN displays (ASUS, BenQ, etc); perhaps they're perfectly fine. However, unless one is a twitch gamer or needs the biggest display for the buck, why not get IPS or PVA? They've become much more affordable recently, not just the Dell 2209WA, but the NEC EA231WMi (23 inches, 1920x1080, sRGB) is also available sometimes for less than $300.
Half dozen? heh I went trough about a dozen before I discovered S-IPS NECs... 20WMGX2 then LCD2490WUXi ...sad to hear about quality degrading...have to wonder if Phillips exit from LGP partnership has anything to do with that? Thank goodness I won't buy another monitor for awhile as both NECs are going strong still.
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
I'm sorry but no. I have a 30" ips, a 24" m-pva and a 19" & 22" TN. The TNs are horrid in comparison. Not just the viewing angles are abysmal, the colours are horrible, no matter how you situate yourself the screen does not look uniform.

There is no comparison. Again, TNs are garbage.

I don't think anybody here is saying TN panels have better viewing angles or superior colour,I own both TN/VA and IPS panels so obviously know the difference (both strengths and weakness) between them.

TN panels have improved in colour reproduction over the years(compared to the earlier TN panels) and obviously IPS are still top dog when it comes to colour and viewing angles and nobody here is arguing that.

I'll say a good colour calibration device is pretty important for any type of LCD you do own,even my TN panel looks miles better after calibration,I wonder how many LCDs go home with no decent or proper calibration?
 

Winterpool

Senior member
Mar 1, 2008
830
0
0
...sad to hear about quality degrading...have to wonder if Phillips exit from LGP partnership has anything to do with that?
I'd been wondering about that myself. LG.Philips dissolved into simple LG.Display a little more than a year ago, I think? And that does seem to be about the period when their IPS panels seemed to deteriorate in quality.

On the other hand, that's also the period when the financial markets blew up. And about the time we started to see a proliferation of cheaper IPS displays. Perhaps LG.Display is simply too concerned about cutting costs for both the reasons above, but it's not possible to build large numbers of near-perfect panels at this price level. The previous IPS panels were mostly almost $1000 or more; now we're seeing $200 22-inch displays, $300ish 23-inch, and sub-$500 24-inch displays. Perhaps we the consumers (particularly the economical IPS snob, heh) wanted something that was too good to be true, at least with current manufacturing.

I'd very curious to hear XTKnight's take on this, when he fully recovers from Finals and holiday diversions. :)
 

evolucion8

Platinum Member
Jun 17, 2005
2,867
3
61
For my experience, I used to had a Dell E178FP and the color reproduction in terms of accuracy and vivid image were close to my current monitor which uses P-MVA panels, but in overall the Dell monitor had severe color banding, and my monitor have some color banding in some shades, but its very hard to pinpoint. In the Dell the whites were a bit dirtier and had horrible angle viewings.
 

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