Title Change: Win98's Setup is what forgot how to run in DOS

[imported_Kiwi]

:frown:I am certain that I have done exactly what I'm trying to do, just using the original Windows98 SE Startup Floppy. But that one doesn't recognize the LiteOn Combo CD-DVD drive, so I tried this from one of the image files for Windows 98 from Bootdisk.Com, and did get access to the CD. There are Setup.Exe programs in the CD Root Directory and in the \Win98 Directory.

But both of them tell me they won't run from DOS. What is different between the Microsoft Floppy and the one from Bootdisk.Com that does work with my drive? I've looked at all the startup files for both and seen nothing unusual from what I can recall, on either one. There is no third Setup I've found. (Edit: I've had a light bulb go on in my head overnight Monday night, 8-30-04. As a result of an actual dream I had. If I'm right, it was pretty simple after all!)

Probably it's something simple, and it's just been too long since I spent much time with DOS's Command Line. Give me some reminders, folks! I'd appreciate it. This new PC is just too pretty to sit there and only look good; I want it running (and don't mention XP in the same sentence with "running"; I often set up dual boots between W2K and Win98, but Win98 has to be up and running first. I have put XP, both versions, back on the shelf some while ago!)

:thumbsdown:

 

[kd7fhd]

do a setup /?

you probably need a switch and the /? will give you all available.

 

[imported_Kiwi]

Originally posted by: kd7fhd
do a setup /?

you probably need a switch and the /? will give you all available.

That query results in the same error message (or close enough I don't know what else it might be:

"This program requires Microsoft Windows"

Any more ideas? (Please?)


:brokenheart:

 

[bsobel]

If I follow the MS boot disk works but doesn't see your CD rom drive, the bootdisk.com disk sees your CD rom drive but setup.exe won't run (right?). If so, the version of dos that bootdisk is using is probably too old.

Why don't you create a directory and copy the win98 disk to it while booted using the bootdisk.com disk and then reboot with the MS disk and then run setup from the directory you created?

And, are these machines old, what XP problems did you have (I know you said not to ask, but I can't believe people still think 98 could possibly be better...)

Bill

 

[rbV5]

I can' t recall exactly but seems like there is another setup win98/setup or win98/setup/setup or win98/options/setup....? That will run from the DOS prompt. You might want to enable smartdrive prior to installing or it'll be s.l.o.w. I don't have access the a win98 disc right now, and its been a long time.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: rbV5
I can' t recall exactly but seems like there is another setup win98/setup or win98/setup/setup or win98/options/setup....? That will run from the DOS prompt. You might want to enable smartdrive prior to installing or it'll be s.l.o.w. I don't have access the a win98 disc right now, and its been a long time.

Setup.exe in the root and in the win98 directory should run, it's setup32 which should not (if I remember my 98 days right). I suspect the bootdisk he got has a version of dos too old...

Bill

 

[imported_Kiwi]

The fiasco began from copying a majority of a C:\ partition, including a directory, C:\Cabs, for the \Win98 folder from that same CD. And the files apparently got corrupted -- it's a new hard drive, but something went splat! Every try to run the install from the Hard Drive after the first attempt gets almost nowhere and then Winsetup gets antsy and starts commiting fatal exception errors. The first attempt got well into an install before it failed in more or less the same way. So I thought that I would try something else!

The DOS files from the Bootdisk Image file are 4-23-1999. Those on the (oops, call it "other") floppy are 4-23-99. The Config Sys on the Bootdisk version is:

DEVICE=HIMEM.SYS /testmemff
FILES=30
BUFFERS=20
DOS=HIGH,UMB

DEVICE=cd1.SYS /D:banana

rem DEVICE=cd1.SYS /D:banana /P:1f0,14
rem DEVICE=cd1.SYS /D:banana /P:170,15
rem DEVICE=cd1.SYS /D:banana /P:170,10
rem DEVICE=cd1.SYS /D:banana /P:1e8,12
rem DEVICE=cd1.SYS /D:banana /P:1e8,11
rem DEVICE=cd1.SYS /D:banana /P:168,10
rem DEVICE=cd1.SYS /D:banana /P:168,9

LASTDRIVE=Z

OK, I'm looking at a W98 FE Floppy after all, and the one that kept crashing most when tring to use Mechanism #2 to read the PCI Bus was the new Emergency Disk that I created early in the install procedure before the initial HD-based install committed Hara-Kiri.

The Config.Sys on the Microsoft Floppy

DEVICE=HIMEM.SYS
BUFFERS=20
FILES=60
DOS=high,umb
LASTDRIVE=Z

REM [CD-ROM Drive]

device=oakcdrom.sys /DEMCD001
device=btdosm.sys
device=flashpt.sys
device=btcdrom.sys /DEMCD001
device=aspi2dos.sys
device=aspi8dos.sys
device=aspi4dos.sys
device=aspi8u2.sys
device=aspicd.sys /DEMCD001

I'll reboot from this 1998 (May 11, 1998) floppy again and see what happens with it. I may have all three criss-crossed in what they've done so far! No -- the Microsoft floppy and the Emergency Start-Up BOTH fail at the same point, in the same manner -- the system is locked solid. The Ctrl-Alt-Del reboot message from the keyboard isn't getting through.


:frown:


P.S. (added in edit) I play some games on my PC's. The oldest & slowest one runs W2K, and is happy -- I don't play games on it. I plan a dual-boot with Win98 first, W2K second, and XP stays up there gathering dust on its shelf, both versions. It has a new model of the NF7 motherboard from Abit in it, that has PATA RAID already, but no mention anywhere that it was included, just the Gigabyte LAN was named.

It's in a brand new Kingwin 424 Aluminum Mid-Tower enclosure with three of the quietest fans (for the amount of air they move), with a few bells & whistles added because it has a windowed door on it.

 

[Jeff7]

Odd error message from the setup.exe file.
I don't know if this'll do it - did you try booting from the Windows CD itself? You might have to change a BIOS option to have it use the CD as a boot device.

 

[imported_Kiwi]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Odd error message from the setup.exe file.
I don't know if this'll do it - did you try booting from the Windows CD itself? You might have to change a BIOS option to have it use the CD as a boot device.

It's the same setup program that is in the Hdd folder and ran from the Command Line to start copying files from the ones there to TEMP for the install, and didn't give that response when accessed there. I have swapped in an old straight CD, an Acer branded 40 speed Cd reader; maybe I'll get a different behavior that way.

I have confirmed something I suspected when I wrote my last comment to the thread. All three images on the www.bootdisk.com's list of link for various "OEM" Win98se floppies are exactly the same, and all are just regular 98se Emergency Start Up disks, like you get from Windows Setup in the Add/Remove part of Control Panel, and like I let be made early in yesterday afternoon's only lengthy session from the install setup.

So far, the only OEM disk I know might work is the one my buddy has had for a couple of weeks now, with my OEM CD of W98se. I have already confirmed that the particular Win98se Upgrade CD that I have doesn't have boot files on it. It is a copy of my own original 1999 CD, which I still have, but is no good because it developed a crack near the hub. I keep thinking I'll find a MS RMA authorization to trade it for a good copy because only an inferior quality disk should do that.

:|

 

[imported_Kiwi]

I didn't do anything with the new PC yesterday to sort out its problems. This evening, I have the 80 MB Hdd out of it and redoing the contents of the C:\ partition totally. I will run this drive as Master in the PC I've had as my Primary machine, and uninstall a lot, then clear out the Device Manager, and shut everything down in the Startup and see how it works when moved over. It worked at least moderately well when done that way two weeks ago on the backup PC that used to be a P-II.

I don't think its entire complement has been summarized yet: it's an AMD XP 2800 (Barton) in an Abit NF7-S2G MB, with an AeroFlow HDF, I let the eVGA FX 5700 LE sit on the sidelines while I sort out the rest, and started with merely a plain GF TNT video with 32 MB of VRAM, it has 512 MB's of Kingston Value PC 3200 RAM (two 256 MB DIMMs), and it currently has an Acer 40x CD ROM drive instead of the LiteOn CD/DVD that I became suspicious of, an 80 GB WD 800 Caviar for primary Hdd, and a Maxtor 40 Gb Hdd as secondary. The whole shooting match is nicely surrounded by a Kingwin KT 424 aluminum case.

 

[PsharkJF]

Try installing it from the cabs after copying them from the 98cd.

 

[yelo333]

Use smart boot manager floppy disk to bring up a menu, and boot off cd-rom, if it won't do it any other way.

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://linux.simple.be/tools/sbm
">http://linux.simple.be/tools/sbm
</a>

Then, boot from cd, pick start comp from cdrom, and start w/cdrom support.

type:

'cd win98'

then,

'setup'

you might have to do a 'format c: /s /u' inbetween the cd win98, and setup steps(format.exe is in the \win98 dir of the cd).

That should do it!

EDIT: Don't forget that the CD is bootable in the first place, and if the computer is new enough, just setting the bios to check the cd-rom drive w/ the win98 cd in would do the trick. Also remember that no cd-rom drive is too new, unless it uses something funky, like SATA. Any normal parallel-ATA cd-burner works fine with the DOS cd-rom drivers. It's just they have to be loaded manually, or automatically, in the case of picking it on the dos startup menu.

 

[imported_Kiwi]

My OEM version of Win98se is probably the oldest, from when I bought the P-I/233 in 1999; bootable CD's did not exist then. The Upgrade is newer; I had a DX 486-100 that had Win95 OSR2 on it that I upgraded in late 1999 or early 2000. It's the OS on cheap media that cracked at the hub. I'm using a copy of that one this past weekend, and it has no boot-up files on it, none. Maybe after they added that capability to W2K's CDs, they made a streamlined upgrade to W98 CD production so there may be such CD's now. There weren't back then.

Meanwhile, I got very tired of the problems and as noted, took a day off. Then I tried some other angles. Right now, I have the 80 GB primary Hdd sitting in the bottom of the newest one's case, not hooked up. I put it in the machine I'm running now, wiped out the contents of the C:\ drive entirely and cloned a copy of the C: in this one, then swapped drives and started uninstalling stuff, and resetting Msconfig, and a wholesale cleanout of Device Manager.

When I get back to it this afternoon, I'll see how it runs (in safe mode, I suppose, to be able to get in and finish emptying the Device Manager's contents; Device Manager's functions got impaired before I could finish). I even dreamed about the system last night. Maybe a nightmare. But something struck me when I woke up, about the memory addresses that kept showing up Friday when setup was making its fatal BSOD errors, and I did cut a corner on RAM. It's Kingston's "Value" line . .

 

[yelo333]

OK...

Next thing I would do is go to bootdisk.com, and just plain try another bootdisk. Any dos bootdisk w/ cd-rom support would do.

I think I did run a 98SE installation off a HD once, just copy EVERYTHING on the CD to a folder on the hd, like setup98. I've got a bit of that kingston value ram stuff, it's good, and I wouldn't worry about it, but you can never be too sure, so just run a prog like memtest86, if you want to check the ram.

Hope this gets you somewhere...

EDIT: I forgot to mention that before cd'ing to win98, as explained in my previous post, you will need to change drives, by typing [driveletter]:, like 'e:'. The A: drive on a win98 bootdisk is not the floppy drive, it's a ramdisk, and the floppy drive has gotten pushed down one letter, to B:. C: should be your HD, and D,E,or F your CD-ROM drive. just cd to each, and type 'dir'. Check for 'Volume in drive X is WIN98, or something along those lines. THEN, follow my previous posts' steps.

 

[imported_Kiwi]

Originally posted by: yelo333
Next thing I would do is go to bootdisk.com, and just plain try another bootdisk. Any dos bootdisk w/ cd-rom support would do.

I think I did run a 98SE installation off a HD once, just copy EVERYTHING on the CD to a folder on the hd, like setup98. I've got a bit of that kingston value ram stuff, it's good, and I wouldn't worry about it, but you can never be too sure, so just run a prog like memtest86, if you want to check the ram.

Hope this gets you somewhere...

EDIT: I forgot to mention that before cd'ing to win98, as explained in my previous post, you will need to change drives, by typing [driveletter]:, like 'e:'. The A: drive on a win98 bootdisk is not the floppy drive, it's a ramdisk, and the floppy drive has gotten pushed down one letter, to B:. C: should be your HD, and D,E,or F your CD-ROM drive. just cd to each, and type 'dir'. Check for 'Volume in drive X is WIN98, or something along those lines. THEN, follow my previous posts' steps.

There are lots of ways to skin the cat, according to a sayng from my Granddad's day (what would anyone want with a cat pelt?) It looks right now as if I was right about the Kingston RAM (or it's a bad Abit MB).

I took one of the DIMMs out and tried to start on just one in slot three (for some reason the numbers run opposite to priority). Not even a beep. Dead duck. So I swapped and put the other DIMM in that slot, with the "bad" one set aside. It's running on the cloned copy of the OS. It has found new hardware like a bandit and rebooted. It's only running at 166 MHz RAM speed -- I'll try 200 later, I suppose.

Lunch is over and I'll get back to it later on to run Abit's CD of drivers, and if it's runing nicely, to swap in the bigger &amp; faster video adapter.

Meanwhile, it's a dual-channel memory bus, and half of the Kingston set is "bad", so do I send BOTH back to them to get a better matched pair, or just one &amp; hope they can send a replacement that is still from the exact same production run, or whatever is supposed to be done for dual channel? I guess from here on, the thread moves to a hardware forum! (Unless Win98 has MORE trouble right away!)

:beer:

 

[yelo333]

Remember kingston is not rated for dual-channel mode. put both sticks in the memory slots side-by-side, and don't use the one further from the other 2. That will force the mobo to shut down dual-channel, and should bring back stability. This is me assuming you have a nforce2 chipset.

 

[imported_Kiwi]

Originally posted by: yelo333
Remember kingston is not rated for dual-channel mode. put both sticks in the memory slots side-by-side, and don't use the one further from the other 2. That will force the mobo to shut down dual-channel, and should bring back stability. This is me assuming you have a nforce2 chipset.

Yes, the Abit NF-7 is an nForce2 Chipset; but if that other stick wouldn't do anything at all by itself, it's "obviously bad", unless we go the other way and point at Abit instead of Kingston.

Something is still going on to make the system unstable -- it runs past available free memory right away -- not the warning about resources, "free memory to run programs", it says, and after just a few minutes the system is useless. Nothing at all will turn loose of memory once it's had a taste of it . . this is a new problem in my experience, but then both of the odd symptoms last Friday were brand new to me as well.

I ran the system I'm writing this post with using only 256 MB's for about two years. It's been run on Win98se, and WinME, Win2K, both flavors of XP. It never faltered; it's not really so terribly "slow" yet. Maybe Kingston made perfectly good RAM, and the MB itself is really an awful piece of dreck.


:brokenheart:

 

[yelo333]

While possible, abit does an excellent job w/ QA, and I've not had a problem with my abit NF7(non -S - tight on cash, and the extra $30 it cost when I built my system was too much). try running memtest, as I mentioned in an earlier post:

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.memtest86.com/#download1">http://www.memtest86.com/#download1</a>">http://www.memtest86.com/#download1</a>

If that still doesn't show any errors after a few hours, you should be good as far as the stick of ram goes, and the problem lies elsewhere. You could try updating the BIOS to the latest version, and removing any extraneous pci devices(the no free mem thing could be caused by some run-away device driver). After the bios update, try that second stick again, in slot 3(IIRC, that's the one nearest the 5.25" drive bays), by itself.


It's funny how close spec-wise your sys is to mine...what gpu/cpu do you have in there?

 

[imported_Kiwi]

It's an AMD XP 2800+ with the Barton core, and the video is intended to be an eVGA FX 5700LE, which I had, but figured with its added features, that might be the proverbial straw with too many new "Found New Hardware" actions or something, so I started with an old GF TNT card I have had for quite awhile. One thing I have done since getting the system running has been trying again to get it up to the 200 MHz RAM speed. This was after running Abit's assorted driver software installs.

What happens is a freezeup in the BIOS's/CMOS's functions. 166 is max. It allows making the choice of 200, then flags a large warning about not shutting off power while saving settings, but dies and is totally locked -- only manually powering down end the lockup. And it will do the same when you attempt to boot/reboot as long as the 200 MHz remains selected. The only way around it is holding the insert key, which enforces only default settings.

I'll play with it some more, and I'm not sure it's making itself available across the LAN yet, so I copied Memtest86 to a floppy.

 

[yelo333]

Memtest86 is a 100% bootable floppy disk, which loads by itself. you don't even need a HD to use it, just follow instructions in zip file. Strange 166 is max...do you have pc2700 kingston ram, and not pc2100? I believe my NF7, on first boot, setup my 2000+ to run @ around 1000 MHZ, which I believe was 166mhz FSB. You boot up, press DEL to get to bios, enter softmenu III setup, repick your cpu type to be 2800+(even if it's already selected), esc out of that screen, save your changes, and reboot. That should fix it, or at least it has for me whenever it happened.

 

[imported_Kiwi]

:| As of a few minutes ago, something is still wrong. I tested the "working" DIMM for several hours with MemTest86 and there were no errors. Both DIMM packages are marked KVR400X64C3A/256, with a Description line saying "256MB PC3200 CL3 184-Pin DIMM". Newegg didn't seem to list any matched pairs of Kingston Value RAM for dual channel in this size and quality, so they are packaged in individual blister packs.

I haven't been able to run a normal mode Windows session longer than 10-15 minutes without some kind of problem. Claims of insufficient memory led me to run MSconfig to look at the DOS-level startup files, just in case there was a problem there. But the system crashed while I was still in MSconfig, saying it was out of resources (and right now, I have managed to forget what that error message means).

After rebooting, I ran the Mem /c lower RAM summary. There was 604 Kb free in the lowest 640. I had Notepad up for a few minutes, along with Windows Explorer, and decided to run Aida32, but there wasn't enough free memory to run it. So I closed everything other than explorer and systray. There still wasn't enough free memory!

I'm going to pay whatever the local going retail rate is for a pair of 256 MB DIMMs and put those in, but not for dual channel; I'll try them in the other slots. I also have started to gradually increment the FSB speed after setting my BIOS control level to "Expert". At 170 MHz, it booted up . .

:frown:

 

[yelo333]

Not good...win98 drivers might be no good, though. try booting the knoppix linux distro, and playing around w/ it for a bit, and see if it crashes.

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html

If it doesn't crash, I'd be it's some funky driver somewhere.

It's a bootable cd, so you'd need another computer with a cd-burner to use it.

AND, don't forget kingston has got lifetime warranties on all their stuff...if you find a stick to be bad, return it... As I said before, my stick of value ram is good...have you tried updating the bios? it could very well be detecting as a 3200+, or something, and setting the multiplier too high. I remember a few bios updates related to that sort of thing. just load the unzipped bios file to a floppy disk, and press alt+f2 during boot, which causes it to bootstrap the flashing utility you have on your floppy disk.

 

[yelo333]

Found this of interest, when browsing kingston memory faq's...not exactly your prob, but might be close enough to warrant a try:

http://www.kingston.com/support/faqs/memory/issue_1.asp

You might also want to check the rest of the issues:

http://www.kingston.com/support/faqs/memory/issues.asp

 

[imported_Kiwi]

I've been trying to get on with some of the real life stuff away from computers and not feeling ambitious about this problem, so it's been on a back burner today. Most interesting new development was the new PC lost its ability to boot from the FDD at some point, so I was going to try and make a generic or general purpose bootable CD. The only working copy of anything that will start out to try to do this is the Nero 5 that came with the Cd-R in the Primary PC, the one I usually use on the internet these days.

(Roxio Easy CD seemingly has no understanding of what it takes to make a bootable CD. That one wasted a CD-R blank with a couple of " .BIN " files instead of creating a CD version of a bootable floppy that I tried copying files from. And the Nero is a specific for the TDK CD-RW drive on that PC; I have a different CD-RW here on a special PC I built before starting the modern one with the Abit -- it's assembled from mostly used or in some way reduced-price parts, like a scratched case. But all I have for this CD-R is that silly Roxio junk.)

But when Nero got ready to do its "burn", it did a Crash to the Desktop instead, several times. So I found and downloaded a different CD writing program that promised to create bootable CD's. But after it was installed, the Windows98 on that machine had been damaged in the process, and won't boot up now, not even in SAFE Mode. When the base explorer.exe module starts to load, another part of Windows slaps it down for an illegal operation back into itself.

Can't win this race for all of the losing that is going on!

:disgust:

 

[yelo333]

With the info you gave about the FDD not working quite right...what sort of Power Supply do you have? It could be underpowering that system of yours...also, what are the voltages, and temps, as listed in the upper-right option of the bios(forget the title)?

Also, don't forget , for memtest, you'd need to use the .ISO file you can download from the site to burn a CD.