Tires and Brakes

[BoomerD]

I'm gonna vent.

I'm long past doing my own wrenching...too old, too busted up. (which pisses me off because I used to do this stuff regularly...for work, for my self, and for friends...I KNOW HOW to do it, I just physically CAN'T.)
The last time I had the oil changed in my 2019 F150 at the Ford dealership, they advised me that my rear brake pads were down to about 30%. I took the truck in to Les Schwab Tires for a brake inspection earlier today. One side of each pair of pads was about 2mm, the other side, about 4-5mm. Front brakes are fine. 8-9mm. Les Schwab's ALWAYS change the calipers with a brake job. No getting around it with them. Estimated price, (depending on exactly which caliper I opt for...$760 or $860 for both wheels...provided they can just turn the rotors and not replace them. (the mechanic says they look fine.) <sigh Scratch that part...new rotors are included in the price.

I'm due for tires on the truck. The stock "Goodyear Wrangler All-Terrain Adventure with Kevlar" (horrid tires with even a skiff of snow or on the beach) have just over 40,000 miles on them. I bought the truck new in 2020.
Tire prices have gone up just a skosh...I'm looking at $250 each for crappy tires, up to about $450 each for "premium all-terrain" tires...and, dammit, most of them are made in Thailand or India. (I guess that's slightly better than made in the PRC) There are still a few tire companies who still make tires in the US, but it's hit or miss as to which of their tires are made here...and which are made overseas.
We USUALLY don't get much snow here. In the (almost) 7 years we've lived here, I think 4" of snow is the most we've had at one time...so I really can't justify having a dedicated set of winter/snow tires and wheels...just a decent set of all-terrain tires that will handle a bit of snow from time to time...and not get me stuck driving on the beach
I've been a "Michelin Man" for a couple of decades...all my replacement tires have been one Michelin or another, and they DO make good tires, but none are rated very well for wet or snowy roads. (mediocre at best) I've had a couple of sets of Goodyear on new rigs, one set of some kind of Continental tire on a different one...none were particularly impressive.

I'm still looking. <sigh>

 

[esquared]

I've never heard of a shop replacing calipers every time with a brake job. My mechanic, and he's a good one, would turn rotors, if they could be turned, otherwise, rotors were replaced.

I've never had a caliper replaced on any car I've owned. I can't imagine that's SOP now.
Maybe things have charged in the 25 years I stopped working on my vehicles.

 

[esquared]

Maybe time to find a new shop boomer.

It's AI but......
No, it is not standard practice to replace all brake calipers during a regular brake job. Calipers are designed to be long-lasting components and are only replaced when there is a specific mechanical problem. In contrast, brake pads and rotors are wear-and-tear items that are replaced routinely.

 

[Quintessa]

You don’t need new calipers every pad change. A normal rear pad plus rotor service on an F-150 at an independent shop should run closer to $400–$500. If the rotors are still in spec and can be turned, even less.

 

[BoomerD]

I've never heard of a shop replacing calipers every time with a brake job. My mechanic, and he's a good one, would turn rotors, if they could be turned, otherwise, rotors were replaced.

I've never had a caliper replaced on any car I've owned. I can't imagine that's SOP now.
Maybe things have charged in the 25 years I stopped working on my vehicles.

Les Schwab's is the only place I know of who replaces the calipers with every brake job. They said that with each set of pads being unevenly worn, (2mm and 4-5mm) that indicates a caliper problem.
I've replaced a few sets of calipers in my life...but not many. As you (or your AI) say, usually, pads and hardware, rotors if they're needed. I have a call into one of the Ford dealers down in Oregon to get pricing from them. (drive $100 miles, save 10% sales tax...on $2000, that more than pays the cost of the trip. Ford is having a "buy 3 tires, get the 4th for $1" sale...but dammit, it looks like they've jacked the prices up so that 3 tires is the same as buying for at regular prices. I'll find out more when I talk to them tomorrow.

 

[BoomerD]

You don’t need new calipers every pad change. A normal rear pad plus rotor service on an F-150 at an independent shop should run closer to $400–$500. If the rotors are still in spec and can be turned, even less.

When I talked to my local Ford shop, they "guestimated" about $300 for pads and turning rotors. (seems kind of cheap to me, but we'll see)

Spoke to them again today, pads and rotors…$900.

 

[Quintessa]

They said that with each set of pads being unevenly worn

Yeah their "always replace calipers" policy is basically their way of padding the bill while insulating themselves from comebacks. Safer for them, more expensive for you. Afaik uneven wear doesn’t automatically mean bad calipers.

 

[esquared]

It sounds like a way to get an extra 300 for your brake job. Me, I wouldn't trust them.

Last time I changed calipers was on my sister's thunderbird probably 30 years ago. I stopped working on vehicles probably 25 years back. It became more of a chore than a hobby. Cars were just getting harder to work on for yourself. At least for me.

 

[Paperdoc]

I agree with most above: Caliper replacement is not normally required anywhere nearly as frequently as pads. Uneven pad wear MAY indicate a Caliper problem, but not necessarily with the actual caliper units. More commonly one sees that each pad is worn unevenly - that is, one END of a pad is more worn that the other end. This happens if the caliper is pressing in more on one end than the other (for example, more at top than bottom). That is caused if the Caliper unit is not free to slide easily on the two PINS that support it. When doing brake jobs I always check that free movement as the calipers are being removed. If there is any doubt, I clean the sliding pins and the bore they fit into thoroughly and re-lube, then check again to be sure they slide smoothly. In really bad cases you might need new slide pins, or some fix for the item with bad bore holes. But neither of those are part of a caliper.

Generally, Caliper systems are designed with one piston to create the squeeze force and rely on easy sliding of the caliper unit on those two pins to ensure that BOTH pads press evenly on the two sides of the rotor. It would be weird for each pad to wear exactly flat end-to-end, but one pad to wear more than another. That MIGHT happen if BOTH slide pins on a wheel froze up so that only the piston side was pushing against the rotor back. That would be apparent from WHICH pad on each wheel is more worn. To have that happen on BOTH rear wheels is odd.

 

[Hans Gruber]

Beware of tire shops doing anything other than changing tires.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Beware of tire shops doing anything other than changing tires.

This is all the inconvenience and uncertainty of keeping an older vehicle. That being said, I don't see 2019 Ford pickup as very old at this time. But there are recurring maintenance expenses for all vehicles, such as brake maintenance and new tires.

While the cash outlays may concern us, they wouldn't be such a concern if we anticipated and planned to make those outlays or if we had money in reserve that would cover the periodically inevitable. I don't think those worries are driving BoomerD.

You're doing the right thing to question whether you're paying more than you need to in order to maintain good brakes. It's just a pain in the ass to almost anybody. I myself am contemplating tire replacement when my tires have yet 20,000 miles of tread remaining. They sure pass the penny test with Lincoln's head, but I know the difference between "new" and half-worn-down.

Another thing -- "Beware of tire shops' . . . etc. " I don't know whether that's entirely true, but nor do I think that much to the contrary. I had a "tire shop" for nearly 20 years who did brakes, rotors and so forth. I was convinced I was getting a good deal on tires and I would ask him to check brake pads and shoes and told "plenty of life left in them" several times.

Back in 2018, I had ball-joints replaced by another shop with defective Moog units. My tire shop told me in 2021 that they needed to be replaced. I was skeptical and even suspicious. I took the SUV to my regular repair shop, who've proven themselves consistently, and their second opinion was . . . . replace the defective ball joints. Then they offered me a deal on the same tires the tire shop had also offered -- saving a few hundred in expense with that. So from now on, I'll buy my tires from my repair shop.

A person has to feel comfortable with the support they have in maintaining an older vehicle. You have to endure the trial and error and mistakes to find a good repair shop. Otherwise, some dealership shops can be reliable and not unreasonably expensive. But I don't have a "dealership" repair shop for my 1995 Isuzu Trooper LS.

I KNOW where BoomerD is coming from on the matter of DIY maintenance and repair. "Too old and busted up" -- I can relate to that. There's very little I want to do anymore except for oil and filter changes -- easy because I installed a drain-valve in the oil pan in 2019 as much as to stop a leak at the drain-plug as well as to make it possible to do an oil change wearing a tuxedo.

Several months ago, I had to replace a damaged tail-light lens, and sure -- I can do that sort of thing as nothing more than an inconvenience and turning a couple screws. But putting my Trooper up on jackstands to replace the gear oil in the transfer cases? I'll pay somebody. Maybe I'll replace my battery when it's needed, or give it a full charge in a month or two.

 

[Greenman]

My last three work trucks have all gone over 250k miles, I've never replaced a caliper.

 

[BoomerD]

Spoke to a semi-local Ford shop earlier. Calipers...maybe, but probably not...but rotors, replace, not turn. $900.
Waiting for a call back from my closest dealership and a couple of independent shops.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Yeah their "always replace calipers" policy is basically their way of padding the bill while insulating themselves from comebacks. Safer for them, more expensive for you. Afaik uneven wear doesn’t automatically mean bad calipers.

Good chance the 'replacement calipers' came off the the last of that model that came through, as well. Lil spit and shine and they'll look good as new.

 

[BoomerD]

Good chance the 'replacement calipers' came off the the last of that model that came through, as well. Lil spit and shine and they'll look good as new.

Nah...Les Schwab's is one of the more reputable shops around. Spoke to the shop in Oregon...turns out, (according to them) there are 4 different caliper options for my truck...3 are normal stock items at their warehouse...the 4th is special order and can take 2 weeks to get. (with my luck...that's the one I'll need.) The two Ford dealerships I've spoken to say there's only one.
None of the local independent shops is willing to quote a brake job sight-unseen...so I'll have to take it in and have them tear it apart...again. :grumble:

Since the price between the Ford shops for pads and rotors is about the same as the Les Schwab price for pads, rotors, and calipers, I think I'll go with Schwabs.

 

[BoomerD]

Just a mild update...All the local indy shops are $700-$900 for brakes...pads, rotors, labor. Seems high to me, but I'm old. I remember when these shops charged $199/axle...and they MIGHT have a sale and get the price down to $150 or less.

As for tires...anyone here have any experience with Nokian Tyres? I'm looking at their Outpost NAT. Nice highway all-terrain tire. Not TOO aggressive, but has a good rating for dry, wet, and mild snow. (I actually like their Remedy WRG5 tire better, but I don't think it will do well driving on the beaches here...something I usually do twice or more every week. It's an All-Weather tire, not All-Season, has EXCELLENT ratings for dry, wet, and snow, just not for off-road)

 

[Paperdoc]

I recently watched two comparison reviews of All-WEATHER tires - the ones that claim to be better than All-Season tires because they DO give decent performance on snow and ice.

https://www.caranddriver.com/car-accessories/a64432470/best-all-weather-tires/

Both found the Michelin Cross Climate 2 very good, the Nokian Remedy WRG5 a bit lower down the list, and several in between.

HOWEVER, although these reviews ran through a good range of road conditions, they were looking closely at snow and ice and whether or not these tires really do deliver performance for winter driving. The answer is as we might expect, since all tire design makes compromises. They DO perform better than All Seasons, and certainly better than Summer Tires or Performance Tires for snow and ice, but they cannot really compete with real winter tires like the Nokian Hakkapeliita R5 on winter conditions. Like most such testing regimens, though, these reviews cannot make any valid comments on lifetime / mileage.

YOUR needs, OP, may NOT require much on snow and ice. It sounds like those conditions are not commonplace and the snow is not that deep. So as you suggest, real winter tires are not needed, but maybe these All-Weathers are a better bet than the older All-Season designs.

I live where it IS cold and lots of winter snow, so all 3 cars in our family have two sets of wheels that I change spring and fall. Winters are all on Nokian Hakkapeliita, and we certainly notice their advantages in winter.

 

[BoomerD]

I recently watched two comparison reviews of All-WEATHER tires - the ones that claim to be better than All-Season tires because they DO give decent performance on snow and ice.

https://www.caranddriver.com/car-accessories/a64432470/best-all-weather-tires/

Both found the Michelin Cross Climate 2 very good, the Nokian Remedy WRG5 a bit lower down the list, and several in between.

HOWEVER, although these reviews ran through a good range of road conditions, they were looking closely at snow and ice and whether or not these tires really do deliver performance for winter driving. The answer is as we might expect, since all tire design makes compromises. They DO perform better than All Seasons, and certainly better than Summer Tires or Performance Tires for snow and ice, but they cannot really compete with real winter tires like the Nokian Hakkapeliita R5 on winter conditions. Like most such testing regimens, though, these reviews cannot make any valid comments on lifetime / mileage.

YOUR needs, OP, may NOT require much on snow and ice. It sounds like those conditions are not commonplace and the snow is not that deep. So as you suggest, real winter tires are not needed, but maybe these All-Weathers are a better bet than the older All-Season designs.

I live where it IS cold and lots of winter snow, so all 3 cars in our family have two sets of wheels that I change spring and fall. Winters are all on Nokian Hakkapeliita, and we certainly notice their advantages in winter.

Yeah, if we regularly got more than a couple of inches of that vile, nasty white stuff, I would definitely invest is a dedicated set of winter tires…Hakkapeliitas are rated as the best winter tire available.
I’ve watched a few of his videos. Good stuff. Unfortunately, the Michelin Cross Country isn’t an option…they don’t make it in my size. For anyone who lives in snowy weather, All-Weather is a much better choice than All-Season…I’m still looking.

 

[BoomerD]

Dammit...I REALLY, REALLY wanted to go to Portland for tires, brakes, and alignment, doing so will save nearly $400 for the services...BUT, it's about 350 miles RT, costing about $90 in gasoline, then $40 for doggie day care, (it would be a 10-12 hour day door to door.....tough on the pooch) then $100 for dinner at Frank's Noodle House. (my wife saw that on an episode of Triple D and has been dying to go) My net savings would be around $125...not a lot for 10-12 hours.
Looks like I'm gonna have to stay local.

 

[Tim_Derr]

Dammit...I REALLY, REALLY wanted to go to Portland for tires, brakes, and alignment, doing so will save nearly $400 for the services...BUT, it's about 350 miles RT, costing about $90 in gasoline, then $40 for doggie day care, (it would be a 10-12 hour day door to door.....tough on the pooch) then $100 for dinner at Frank's Noodle House. (my wife saw that on an episode of Triple D and has been dying to go) My net savings would be around $125...not a lot for 10-12 hours.
Looks like I'm gonna have to stay local.

you got me at Frank's Noodle House

 

[BoomerD]

you got me at Frank's Noodle House

Yeah...Portland is still up for consideration...just because of Frank's.

 

[WilliamM2]

Wife got a set of Nokian all weather tires. Great in snow. But they had a poor ride, they were noisy, and they felt mushy on dry pavement. Wouldn't get them again, we'll stick with all seasons.

 

[BoomerD]

Wife got a set of Nokian all weather tires. Great in snow. But they had a poor ride, they were noisy, and they felt mushy on dry pavement. Wouldn't get them again, we'll stick with all seasons.

OK...do you get a lot of snow? All-Season tires are great...if you live someplace like the southern states where snow is a rarity.

 

[bigboxes]

Things no one has done for me in over 30 years: oil changes and brake jobs. If your caliper piston isn't seizing up, it could be that you just need to clean and relube your caliper guide pins and replace the (guide pin) bushings and seals. If caliper guide pin maintenance has not been done, they may cause uneven wear of the brake pads. And this is the price for just the rear brakes? Also, the same brake & caliper grease that you use on the guide pins you should use on the pad mounting tabs that set in the brake shims. When the caliper and pads slide freely you'll have more even wear.

Akebono ceramic rear brake pads - $56.
Motorcraft rear brake rotors - $100 x 2 = $200
Rear disc brake hardware kit (clips, seals and bushings) - $14
Calipar guide pins (if necessary) - $15
Brake and caliper grease - $20 (if you don't already have it)
Money for 6-pack and lunch for your buddy who does this easy labor for you - $30

Total: $285

Screw rip-off brake shops. If you lived nearby, I'd do it for you.

 

[WilliamM2]

OK...do you get a lot of snow? All-Season tires are great...if you live someplace like the southern states where snow is a rarity.

Yes, we get lots of snow in northern Michigan. I've always done just fine with all season tires. I tend to buy models rated decent for snow. For 3 months a year, I can deal with it. I can't deal with a noisy, rough, poor handling ride the other 9 months.

She just sold that car in July, she has an AWD Honda with traction control etc. since last December, it also seems fine with all seasons.

I did say the Nokians were great in snow, but not much else. The "All Weather" tires seem to be a recent development, what di you do before that?

Don't you live in a warmer climate?