Timing belt change: OEM or AM?

[apathy_next2]

So, my highlander is up to about 100k now and is due for a timing belt change. I am thinking about buying a kit, should I go for OEM? Is it mandatory to do it? Or can I get away with an AM brand? If AM is ok, which brands are good?
I've been looking at these and not sure which AM ones are good and which ones a trash. Any suggestions?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...oyota+highlander+timing+belt+KIT+OEM&_sacat=0

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

I've had bad experience with aftermarket belts lasting a fraction of the time OEM belts do. They seem to only last 3-5 years while OEM belts seem to last 10

 

[rommelrommel]

The labour usually dwarfs the cost of the parts, and a failure means a grenaded engine so I'd probably stick with oem here.

 

[Jimzz]

Do you think car makers have a timing belt factory? If you want a OE belt find out who made it for Toyota in this case and buy that one in a non-Toyota box if you are that worried.

Just buy a brand name timing belt kit and get a water pump as well. I've installed over 100 timing belts and never had a problem with any. Check out www.rockauto.com Don't forget other items you may need if its time like spark plugs, trans filter (if it has one), fuel filter (again if it has one), etc...

 

[Zorba]

Do you think car makers have a timing belt factory? If you want a OE belt find out who made it for Toyota in this case and buy that one in a non-Toyota box if you are that worried.

Just buy a brand name timing belt kit and get a water pump as well. I've installed over 100 timing belts and never had a problem with any. Check out www.rockauto.com Don't forget other items you may need if its time like spark plugs, trans filter (if it has one), fuel filter (again if it has one), etc...

Just because a company made it for the OEM doesn't mean their AM parts are the same.

For the reasons rommelrommel said, I would go OEM for my own car.

 

[Jimzz]

Just because a company made it for the OEM doesn't mean their AM parts are the same.

For the reasons rommelrommel said, I would go OEM for my own car.

You have some facts too show the quality is different from a gates belt sold directly to Toyota is different then the one in the gates box?

 

[basslover1]

I'd just go with an OE supplier, not necessarily the OE branded one.

I did my TB about 75K miles ago with an OE supplier and haven't had a single issue. Actually I'm about to tackle it for the second time, again with OE supplier belts, and I'm not worried about it one bit.

 

[Wingznut]

I can't even count how many belts I've replaced with aftermarket parts. If it's a good brand, I wouldn't hesitate.

 

[pauldun170]

You have some facts too show the quality is different from a gates belt sold directly to Toyota is different then the one in the gates box?

As described to me by an auto engineer in the land of the interwebz forums years ago,
What you get from from OE is an belt that complies with Toyota\Honda\whoevers' spec and test regimen.
Each manufacturer might have a different spec.

What you receive from Toyota is a belt "X" from supplier "A" that meets Toyota's spec ( or at least the samples from the batch held up to QC)

Supplier A sells belt "X" to other manufacturers, each with their own (QC) spec or test regimen.
Supplier A sells the same belt "X" under its own retail label.

If a batch contains belts that fail Toyota's standards but meet Supplier A standards they will sell it under the house brand. If it fails Toyota's but meets Hyundai's they will sell it to Hyundai.
So if you a belt from "Supplier A", you can either buy a belt that Meets Lexus spec or you could get a belt that barley meets the Supplier's spec. If you buy OE, you know that at least some the OE belts meets whatever QC crap that manufacturer demands from its suppliers.

Some other stuff about "Domestics have tight specs but loose testing standards while Japanese have slightly looser specs but crazy testing" Don't remember the exact details.
However, this was from interwebz conversation.

 

[Jimzz]

As described to me by an auto engineer in the land of the interwebz forums years ago,
What you get from from OE is an belt that complies with Toyota\Honda\whoevers' spec and test regimen.
Each manufacturer might have a different spec.

What you receive from Toyota is a belt "X" from supplier "A" that meets Toyota's spec ( or at least the samples from the batch held up to QC)

Supplier A sells belt "X" to other manufacturers, each with their own (QC) spec or test regimen.
Supplier A sells the same belt "X" under its own retail label.

If a batch contains belts that fail Toyota's standards but meet Supplier A standards they will sell it under the house brand. If it fails Toyota's but meets Hyundai's they will sell it to Hyundai.
So if you a belt from "Supplier A", you can either buy a belt that Meets Lexus spec or you could get a belt that barley meets the Supplier's spec. If you buy OE, you know that at least some the OE belts meets whatever QC crap that manufacturer demands from its suppliers.

Some other stuff about "Domestics have tight specs but loose testing standards while Japanese have slightly looser specs but crazy testing" Don't remember the exact details.
However, this was from interwebz conversation.

Yea if it fails specs they would toss it. There is no grade A and grade B specs for a timing belt. Either its meets them or not.

If you're buying some no name white box made in china part maybe, but if you get a Bando/Gates/etc... timing belt and its speced for that car its going to work.

 

[pauldun170]

Yea if it fails specs they would toss it. There is no grade A and grade B specs for a timing belt. Either its meets them or not.

If you're buying some no name white box made in china part maybe, but if you get a Bando/Gates/etc... timing belt and its speced for that car its going to work.

Probably,
I don't know and its been a few years since I had a mole in the auto industry.

Wonder if we have any folks who work in the industry (supply chain and Auto manufacturers) who could provide details.

Now that I think more about, the conversations I had with the guy (unfortunately he passed away several years ago) revolved on parts and components.

 

[JCH13]

Gates or GTFO!

Seriously though, replacing your timing belt with a good name-brand belt is just dandy. As far as I know Gates is THE name in all timing belts.

 

[Zorba]

You have some facts too show the quality is different from a gates belt sold directly to Toyota is different then the one in the gates box?

One it is just common sense. To sell a part to the OEM, it must meet the OEM specifications. For you to sell it yourself, it doesn't have to meet OEM specifications. I don't work in the auto industry, but I do work with aerospace parts suppliers all the time. If it happens in a massively regulated industry like aviation, I have no doubt it happens in a completely unregulated industry like after market car parts.

As described to me by an auto engineer in the land of the interwebz forums years ago,
What you get from from OE is an belt that complies with Toyota\Honda\whoevers' spec and test regimen.
Each manufacturer might have a different spec.

What you receive from Toyota is a belt "X" from supplier "A" that meets Toyota's spec ( or at least the samples from the batch held up to QC)

Supplier A sells belt "X" to other manufacturers, each with their own (QC) spec or test regimen.
Supplier A sells the same belt "X" under its own retail label.

If a batch contains belts that fail Toyota's standards but meet Supplier A standards they will sell it under the house brand. If it fails Toyota's but meets Hyundai's they will sell it to Hyundai.
So if you a belt from "Supplier A", you can either buy a belt that Meets Lexus spec or you could get a belt that barley meets the Supplier's spec. If you buy OE, you know that at least some the OE belts meets whatever QC crap that manufacturer demands from its suppliers.

Some other stuff about "Domestics have tight specs but loose testing standards while Japanese have slightly looser specs but crazy testing" Don't remember the exact details.
However, this was from interwebz conversation.

This is basically my experience in aerospace. For example, you can buy a Hi-Lok from Lisi that meets all of their specifications, or you can buy it through Boeing who will test/inspect it to their higher specifications. More than likely they are the exact same thing and would pass both sets of test, but there is no guarantee.

You really see this a lot in the after market non-standard parts arena, where the AM supplier as to prove to the FAA their part is equivalent than OEM. The difference is the OEM parts are manufactured using proprietary manufacturing procedures and inspections, many parts (especially engine parts) are made from proprietary materials that no AM company can use. So there is no true way to really get an equivalent, non-OEM-licensed part.

Again, in the car part industry, they could put a leather belt in the box and call it a timing belt, even if they did make the parts for the OEM. Who would stop them? It isn't like in aviation or the military were even after market standard parts comply with industry standards, like mil-specs.

Yea if it fails specs they would toss it. There is no grade A and grade B specs for a timing belt. Either its meets them or not.

If you're buying some no name white box made in china part maybe, but if you get a Bando/Gates/etc... timing belt and its speced for that car its going to work.

What specification are Gates timing belts built to? And show me where in this spec it says they must pitch it if it doesn't meet an OEM spec. Or are you just assuming they build all of their timing belts to the same specs? Which may not be a bad assumption, but without a specification number stamped on the part there is no guarantee. An OEM part number should be a guarantee that it meets the OEM's requirements, Rock Auto saying "OEM Equivalent" means nothing.

BTW: I am not saying anything bad about Gates or any other belt manufacturer. I am just saying that if a part has an OEM part number on it, the OEM has accepted that part and that it meets their full set of requirements. Outside of OEM parts or an industry standard part (i.e. SAE bolts) there is no guarantee that any parts actually meets the OEM requirements or is held to any real standard/inspection.

The flip side, some OEM parts are complete junk and an aftermarket supplier may develop a much better alternative. This happens in aviation a lot, and I've seen it with cars too.

Edit: I just looked up the timing belt for my car and the Subaru part number is the same as the Gates part number. In aviation at least that would be the OEM was not doing any extra checks to the part and it would be a safe assumption that the AM part was identical. But again, there is no great regulator of car parts to ensure the PN XX-X is always the same, unlike the all seeing eye of the FAA. In this case, though, I would buy the AM belt since it is from the OEM supplier, is a trusted brand with an identical part number.

 

[Wingznut]

One it is just common sense. To sell a part to the OEM, it must meet the OEM specifications. For you to sell it yourself, it doesn't have to meet OEM specifications.

But of course, quality manufacturers (i.e. Gates) have their own standards. And their standards may very well be equal to, or even greater than, OEM specifications.

There's just no reason to assume that OEM part is superior to a quality aftermarket.

 

[Zorba]

But of course, quality manufacturers (i.e. Gates) have their own standards. And their standards may very well be equal to, or even greater than, OEM specifications.

There's just no reason to assume that OEM part is superior to a quality aftermarket.

That was also addressed in my Wall O' Text.

There is reason to assume that an OEM part will always meet OEM requirements. And it is a fact there is no guarantee anything else does. AM may be better or equal to (and a lot of times is) or even worse, but without that OEM PN there is no guarantee.

One example I know of, is Honeywell (Fram) makes the OEM oil filters for Subaru. But if you go buy the AM Fram oil filters, they have a different by-pass pressure ratio, and I've read the construction is different (though I haven't verified this).

BTW: When I worked for an airline, part of my job was reviewing after market mechanical systems parts for equivalency to OEM. Some were much better, most where about the same, some were complete and otter crap - even though they convinced the FAA they were the same as OEM. Now that I am working military, if it is after market, you can just assume it is a POS, the difference between highly regulated parts and basically unregulated low-bid parts.

 

[Jimzz]

That was also addressed in my Wall O' Text.

There is reason to assume that an OEM part will always meet OEM requirements. And it is a fact there is no guarantee anything else does. AM may be better or equal to (and a lot of times is) or even worse, but without that OEM PN there is no guarantee.

One example I know of, is Honeywell (Fram) makes the OEM oil filters for Subaru. But if you go buy the AM Fram oil filters, they have a different by-pass pressure ratio, and I've read the construction is different (though I haven't verified this).

BTW: When I worked for an airline, part of my job was reviewing after market mechanical systems parts for equivalency to OEM. Some were much better, most where about the same, some were complete and otter crap - even though they convinced the FAA they were the same as OEM. Now that I am working military, if it is after market, you can just assume it is a POS, the difference between highly regulated parts and basically unregulated low-bid parts.

So in other words you think they run 2 different lines and make a lower quality part, one that if it fails could cause backlash, lawsuits, and lose of image.

Yea that makes way more sense then just making 1 belt at high quality standards that meet or exceed what the car makers want and be done with it. :whiste:

What specification are Gates timing belts built to? And show me where in this spec it says they must pitch it if it doesn't meet an OEM spec.

You're the one making the claims that the aftermarket belt is lower quality, its your job to prove your statement.

I just looked up the timing belt for my car and the Subaru part number is the same as the Gates part number. In aviation at least that would be the OEM was not doing any extra checks to the part and it would be a safe assumption that the AM part was identical.

You mean its almost like they only run 1 line of timing belts and make sure they all meet or exceed what the car makers want? No!!!! get out of here with that line of thinking, that's crazy talk.

 

[Zargon]

LOL for real

 

[Zorba]

So in other words you think they run 2 different lines and make a lower quality part, one that if it fails could cause backlash, lawsuits, and lose of image.

Yea that makes way more sense then just making 1 belt at high quality standards that meet or exceed what the car makers want and be done with it. :whiste:

Yeah, no body, no company has ever done that before

My statement is there is no guarantee that any AM is the same as an OEM part, unless it is built to a published standard or the OEM tells you this AM part is the same. You can ignore it all you want, but that is the truth of the matter.

You're the one making the claims that the aftermarket belt is lower quality, its your job to prove your statement

You are the one making the claiming that an aftermarket part made by the original part suppler is the same as the OEM no matter what, so you are actually the one making a claim that needs proved. You further claimed that if the belt was rejected by the OEM, the parts supplier would throw it away, which is a claim you made that you need to prove.

Here is my original post "Just because a company made it for the OEM doesn't mean their AM parts are the same." Where did I say any AM was lower quality? Like I have been saying all along, there is no proof it is the same. It may be the same, better, worse, slightly longer, slightly shorter, etc.

You mean its almost like they only run 1 line of timing belts and make sure they all meet or exceed what the car makers want? No!!!! get out of here with that line of thinking, that's crazy talk.

And if a batch doesn't meet the OEM requirements? Do you know for a fact they throw them away (as you claimed before)? If so where is the proof their specifications require this? Or do they sign them off and sell them after market? I for one don't just holistically trust the goodwill of a company whose job it is to make profit, especially when I've been working with aftermarket parts for years and have seen every trick from every different type of supplier.

Also, do you think Gates has a different line for every different belt they make? Or do you think its possible they can make different belts on the same line? I am pretty sure they can manage to make different belts on the same line. Especially when a lot of the possible differences are tolerance differences.

At the end of the day an OEM timing belt is like $50-60, while a Gates is $25-30. You can pay the extra $30 and know for a fact you are getting an OEM belt, or you save $30 and assume you are getting an OEM belt. For most things I will use AM, but a timing belt is a pain to change and can ruin your engine if it fails, so I don't see $30 as being much of an added expense to know you are getting an OEM quality part.

 

[Jimzz]

Yeah, no body, no company has ever done that before

My statement is there is no guarantee that any AM is the same as an OEM part, unless it is built to a published standard or the OEM tells you this AM part is the same. You can ignore it all you want, but that is the truth of the matter.



You are the one making the claiming that an aftermarket part made by the original part suppler is the same as the OEM no matter what, so you are actually the one making a claim that needs proved. You further claimed that if the belt was rejected by the OEM, the parts supplier would throw it away, which is a claim you made that you need to prove.

Here is my original post "Just because a company made it for the OEM doesn't mean their AM parts are the same." Where did I say any AM was lower quality? Like I have been saying all along, there is no proof it is the same. It may be the same, better, worse, slightly longer, slightly shorter, etc.



And if a batch doesn't meet the OEM requirements? Do you know for a fact they throw them away (as you claimed before)? If so where is the proof their specifications require this? Or do they sign them off and sell them after market? I for one don't just holistically trust the goodwill of a company whose job it is to make profit, especially when I've been working with aftermarket parts for years and have seen every trick from every different type of supplier.

At the end of the day an OEM timing belt is like $50-60, while a Gates is $25-30. You can pay the extra $30 and know for a fact you are getting an OEM belt, or you save $30 and assume you are getting an OEM belt. For most things I will use AM, but a timing belt is a pain to change and can ruin your engine if it fails, so I don't see $30 as being much of an added expense to know you are getting an OEM quality part.

So the one sold to the car makers is worse?

You are double speaking now, which is it? Is the quality to the car maker better or the AE boxed one? And how is it better?

 

[Zorba]

So the one sold to the car makers is worse?

You are double speaking now, which is it? Is the quality to the car maker better or the AE boxed one? And how is it better?

That is a direct quote from my original post (copied below). I never said that AM was lower quality. I said there is no guarantee they are same, that doesn't mean the AM has to be lower quality. That means there is no guarantee they are the same.

There is a lack of reading comprehension, not double speak.

A very simple way they could be different is an OEM could specify a belt being 1.75" +/- 0.05" wide, and since they won't loose any money won't accept any belt that is out of that tolerance. The belt manufacture in the AM could say that -0.09" was just fine.

It is also possible for the part supplier to hold themselves to a higher standard than the OEM, but with car parts there is no guarantee of this. For example, a retreaded Goodyear 737 tire is significantly better than an OEM Goodyear 737 tire. There are many reasons for this, but it is a fact, and because it is in a regulated world you know it would hold true every time.

Just because a company made it for the OEM doesn't mean their AM parts are the same.

For the reasons rommelrommel said, I would go OEM for my own car.

 

[Jimzz]

That is a direct quote from my original post (copied below). I never said that AM was lower quality. I said there is no guarantee they are same, that doesn't mean the AM has to be lower quality. That means there is no guarantee they are the same.

There is a lack of reading comprehension, not double speak.

A very simple way they could be different is an OEM could specify a belt being 1.75" +/- 0.05" wide, and since they won't loose any money won't accept any belt that is out of that tolerance. The belt manufacture in the AM could say that -0.09" was just fine.

It is also possible for the part supplier to hold themselves to a higher standard than the OEM, but with car parts there is no guarantee of this. For example, a retreaded Goodyear 737 tire is significantly better than an OEM Goodyear 737 tire. There are many reasons for this, but it is a fact, and because it is in a regulated world you know it would hold true every time.

OK how are the timing belts made for Car Maker different then the ones they put in their own boxes since that is now your claim?

 

[pauldun170]

So in other words you think they run 2 different lines and make a lower quality part, one that if it fails could cause backlash, lawsuits, and lose of image.

As a side note, in manufacturing (at least when I used to work in manufacturing) you end up with variation. Plastic bezzles, belts, screws everything.
When it goes through inspection, you have "product A" ranging from
A. So immaculate that it could be considered a golden sample that the designer would whack off too
B. Utter crap that you toss into the "defect" bin
C. Meh... just ship it. it doesn't look "that bad".
D. Its Friday morning and we all went to happy hour last night, just ship it. If the customer doesn't like it then its someone else problem

You don't need separate lines. Variation happens.

Back in 90's I worked for a company that used to sell text terminals, thin clients and mainframe equipment.
One production line for thin clients and text terminals. At final inspection, if the label that we applied belong to a certain customer (we built it then slapped their name on it), it got "special attention". Others, not so much.

 

[Zorba]

OK how are the timing belts made for Car Maker different then the ones they put in their own boxes since that is now your claim?

How dense are you? I have said over and over and over that there is no guarantee they are the same. I even linked the definitions of guarantee and same for you. I know there is no guarantee the are the same because they are no regulations saying they are the same and they are not built to publicly available specifications with independent auditors.

My comment wasn't just about timing belts either, it is about all AM parts. If you buy an OEM part you know you are getting a part the meets the OEM specifications/drawing, if you don't buy the OEM part there is no guarantee it would/wouldn't meet the same specifications/drawing.

 

[LTC8K6]

Gates says their AM belts are OE spec or better...

Any reason not to believe them?

http://www.gates.com/products/autom...t-truck/timing-system/automotive-timing-belts

 

[Zorba]

As a side note, in manufacturing (at least when I used to work in manufacturing) you end up with variation. Plastic bezzles, belts, screws everything.
When it goes through inspection, you have "product A" ranging from
A. So immaculate that it could be considered a golden sample that the designer would whack off too
B. Utter crap that you toss into the "defect" bin
C. Meh... just ship it. it doesn't look "that bad".
D. Its Friday morning and we all went to happy hour last night, just ship it. If the customer doesn't like it then its someone else problem

You don't need separate lines. Variation happens.

Back in 90's I worked for a company that used to sell text terminals, thin clients and mainframe equipment.
One production line for thin clients and text terminals. At final inspection, if the label that we applied belong to a certain customer (we built it then slapped their name on it), it got "special attention". Others, not so much.

:thumbsup:

Just like Intel and AMD test their chips and place the part number on the chip based on how it did in its test. If yields are high, cheap chips are basically the same as expensive chips. If yields are poor cheaper chips are inferior to the more expensive chips. (Within the same core/family of course)