Time to get an e-bike? 30% tax credit through BBB plan.

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Nov 17, 2019
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Ideally workplaces should just allow people to bring their bikes in.

You mean like you bring your car inside and park it next to your desk?

Everything on or under a car would on or under a whizzmatron. Are you willing to wash it thoroughly before you bring it inside by your desk so it doesn't get lonely?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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I was thinking of getting one.
I don't know squat about them (I ride an old road bike, I provide the propulsion). I skate daily and I see some people on bikes peddling and sometimes wonder if they have batteries, they seem to be going faster than I'd expect. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, it's hard for me to tell. Lots of people ride bikes around here. I also see quite a few motorized skateboarders! They only reason I'm not shopping these things is I figure I need the exercise of my road bike and quad skates. I have a car but I'm driving less than 1000m/year with it. Um, less than 500m/year, just checked my math!!!
E-bikes can get people out of cars and help ease traffic in congested cities, which also helps emissions. It's a matter of providing the right infrastructure and rules for safe riding with non motorized cyclists. I use my regular bike around the NYC area in place of a car sometimes. It's often much faster and cheaper and efficient.
Yesterday I peddled my road bike to my first dentist appt in 2 years with new dentist (old dentist retired in Nov. 2019). No hassle parking, just u-locked it to a street meter (noticed as I was leaving that they have bike racking in the parking lot, which I'll utilize next visit). Did the same 2 hours later to equally intense metro downtown spot to get my covid booster. Great exercise, time saving (no parking hassle).

Each ride was around 10 minutes one way.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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They subsidize electric cars. Electric bikes are great for getting people around and helping to break some car dependency in cities. Cargo bikes can carry groceries and kids; standard e-bikes can help you get to work without looking like a ball of sweat.
In my town I've been seeing all manner of creative/inventive bicycling being done. Berkeley, CA is that kind of town, lots of people who can think outside the box. Some of these DIFFERENT bikes are no doubt battery assisted but I usually can't tell. Many have babies or toddlers in tow, sometimes the trailing toddler is peddling too. I see incredibly small kids riding bikes unassisted (with adults ahead on a separate bike), some people start them really really young here. I'm skating a designated "Healthy Street" which is supposed to be bike friendly, so I'm seeing more than I'd see on most streets of things like this.

In general, the paving around here isn't very bike friendly. My "Healthy Street" (runs a block from me) is well paved, but the great majority of streets are anything but.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,409
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Seriously, would consider an electric mountain-bike that was tough enough/had a compliant enough suspension to say hop a curb at 20 mph and stay in control while ducking traffic.

I would never ride one of the slow, fragile & clumsy moving-targets I see folks riding on in traffic all the time though. (sometimes with a kid or groceries on a trailer!) It's dangerous enough driving a small car!
I have ridden road bikes in the city for decades, learning all the time. 30+ years ago I'd sometimes ride busy streets but I gradually wised up. I see people doing things on their bikes that make me shudder nowadays. I've talked to some of them, they almost always act cold when you do that. People don't like strangers to suggest anything, it's just ingrained in them. So, I rarely say anything anymore.

One of the things that makes me nervous is driving too close to parked cars. I was "doored" a few times. No broken bones, but close! Some blood and bruising. I know a guy who had to have his jaw wired together after being doored.

I also stay off busy streets as much as possible. There are streets I used to ride that I would never ride now. I'm as good or better on a bike than ever, to me my bike is an extension of my body, it's not a foreign object. I have complete control, but on a busy street all bets are off, things can get nasty virtually instantly. On a not busy street, a situation will develop slowly and you can avoid risk if you insist, and I do. I also started wearing a helmet almost 3 years ago because my PT insisted. I didn't used to because I'm so safe, but what she said made sense, so I do now, also skating. I also wear gloves on a bike 95% of the time, 100% when skating.
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
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I have ridden road bikes in the city for decades, learning all the time. 30+ years ago I'd sometimes ride busy streets but I gradually wised up. I see people doing things on their bikes that make me shudder nowadays. I've talked to some of them, they almost always act cold when you do that. People don't like strangers to suggest anything, it's just ingrained in them. So, I rarely say anything anymore.

One of the things that makes me nervous is driving too close to parked cars. I was "doored" a few times. No broken bones, but close! Some blood and bruising. I know a guy who had to have his jaw wired together after being doored.

I also stay off busy streets as much as possible. There are streets I used to ride that I would never ride now. I'm as good or better on a bike than ever, to me my bike is an extension of my body, it's not a foreign object. I have complete control, but on a busy street all bets are off, things can get nasty virtually instantly. On a not busy street, a situation will develop slowly and you can avoid risk if you insist, and I do. I also started wearing a helmet almost 3 years ago because my PT insisted. I didn't because I'm so safe, but what she said made sense, so I do now, also skating. I also wear gloves on a bike 95% of the time, 100% when skating.


I've ridden a bicycle in Manhattan more than once years ago and also rode a 1300cc sport-bike (motorcycle) for many years but I don't do either one on the roads anymore.

The problem isn't me or you its the thoughtless drunken scumbag/texting teenager/oblivious soccer-mom who flattens you in their giant SUV and doesn't even notice ... that's my issue!
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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I've ridden a bicycle in Manhattan more than once years ago and also rode a 1300cc sport-bike (motorcycle) for many years but I don't do either one on the roads anymore.

The problem isn't me or you its the thoughtless drunken scumbag/texting teenager/oblivious soccer-mom who flattens you in their giant SUV and doesn't even notice ... that's my issue!

NYC is dramatically different now, which is good. It's a testament to build it and they will come. All that bike infrastructure being built encouraged more riders, which then conditions drivers to be used to them more, and more infrastructure is built, and more riders ride, and more drivers are conditioned to sharing the road. And Citibike. This year in September Citibike broke their daily ridership record with 135,000 rides on one day, and they were averaging over 103,000 rides a day around then in general. That's around 700,000 Citibike rides a week, and that does not include a shit ton of people riding on their own bikes, which is a very large amount.


Riding around NYC is truly the greatest way to explore it, weather permitting of course.

I snapped this photo while cruising on the west side greenway earlier this year. Two girls in dresses and dress shoes just casually pedaling uptown. Love seeing more and more of this stuff.PXL_20210521_235413955 (Medium).jpg
 
Dec 10, 2005
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We have two businesses here that rent e-bikes to the tourists. $20/hr, IIRC. During the touristy months, those fckn things are everywhere...and the majority of them ignore the simple things...like stop signs, yield signs, crosswalks, speed limits, (80% of the town is posted 25 mph)
Every time I leave my home in the Boston region, I see people in vehicles weighing thousands of pounds violate the rules of the road - speeding, blatantly running red lights, not yielding to pedestrians in crosswalks, etc...

I'm far less worried about getting hit by some careless cyclist than I am getting mowed down by some moron in a land tank.
 
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Dec 10, 2005
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The environmental approach that solves this is not a niche vehicle for the rich, nor some bicycle for the niche that can use it every day, but rather a basic, utilitarian vehicle for the masses. It is incredible that these extremes are targeted instead of what the masses would adopt. Profits above integrity.
A basic utilitarian vehicle, like a bicycle or a cargo bicycle.

Build the infrastructure (lanes, secure parking) and create neighborhoods that encourage their use, and people will adopt it.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
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Solar stuff went up 30% when the 30% tax credits kicked in. I don't know if it dropped back down since I stopped looking after I noticed that scam.

'Town' is 25 miles away. When I go once or twice a month, I usually make 6 or 8 stops, sometimes more covering 50-75 miles and come back with the car and sometimes a trailer loaded with hundreds of pounds. Is one of this whizzmatrons gonna help me?
Obviously, this is for people that live in cities. Not someone that drives 25 miles to get groceries. But you can eliminate a lot of emissions and infrastructure costs if you can get a decent number of city folks on bikes (and PT).
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
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NYC is dramatically different now, which is good. It's a testament to build it and they will come. All that bike infrastructure being built encouraged more riders, which then conditions drivers to be used to them more, and more infrastructure is built, and more riders ride, and more drivers are conditioned to sharing the road. And Citibike. This year in September Citibike broke their daily ridership record with 135,000 rides on one day, and they were averaging over 103,000 rides a day around then in general. That's around 700,000 Citibike rides a week, and that does not include a shit ton of people riding on their own bikes, which is a very large amount.


Riding around NYC is truly the greatest way to explore it, weather permitting of course.

I snapped this photo while cruising on the west side greenway earlier this year. Two girls in dresses and dress shoes just casually pedaling uptown. Love seeing more and more of this stuff.View attachment 52126
A few years ago I was in Vancouver for a conference. Everyday when I was done, I'd run over to a bike rental shop. Rode that bike all over town, put 65 miles on it in 4 days. Great way of seeing the city and they had excellent bike infrastructure.

My city is adding a lot of infrastructure, but where I am in the burbs there isn't a lot and everything is so spread out I don't think it's practical for me, yet.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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A basic utilitarian vehicle, like a bicycle or a cargo bicycle.

Build the infrastructure (lanes, secure parking) and create neighborhoods that encourage their use, and people will adopt it.

Except the infrastructure (meaning existing roads, buildings, etc already built) is already there and does not include the lanes and parking for ebikes in most areas, so it's not so simple unless you want government to just seize millions of properties (+ easements) along side every existing road to do this, then spend all that money too, which will take many years if it ever came to be (many areas are not so liberal as Portland (in the linked study) or CA), so not really a solution and is putting the cart before the horse to incentivize people buying bikes to make some significant difference when there isn't enough safe areas of infrastructure for a wide adoption.
 
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mindless1

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Every time I leave my home in the Boston region, I see people in vehicles weighing thousands of pounds violate the rules of the road - speeding, blatantly running red lights, not yielding to pedestrians in crosswalks, etc...

I'm far less worried about getting hit by some careless cyclist than I am getting mowed down by some moron in a land tank.
Which is why it could be argued as wreckless to encourage all these ebike users to take to the streets with so little protection against larger vehicles. Enticing people to be put in harm's way is a very significant part of the safety equation. Motorcyclists know this and have much louder, faster vehicles that aren't constantly being passed by motorists like an (up to) 28MPH ebike will.

If having less protection were a good thing then why are automobiles built to the opposite standard with increasing weight to get there, then we go and encourage less safe modes of transportation . The safety argument doesn't fly because we both know a 30% discount on an ebike won't remove larger vehicles from the roads any decade soon, nor magically make ebike paths pop up everywhere there is already infrastructure.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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A basic utilitarian vehicle, like a bicycle or a cargo bicycle.

Build the infrastructure (lanes, secure parking) and create neighborhoods that encourage their use, and people will adopt it.
Before my uncle gave me his Town and Country station wagon in 1993 my mode of transportation was a used road bike, at the time a Schwinn. Nothing fancy. I had a Pletscher Rack over the back tire. On my infrequent trips to Costco (about 5.5 miles each way), I'd first mount a basket on that rack. That basket was a home made affair, it was made from two plastic milk crates, the kind you see all the time. I'd cut out a side wall from each crate and joined them together to form one double size crate-basket. I am the ONLY person I have ever seen riding a bicycle to Costco! I also had a standard front basket mounted on that bike for a while, "permanently." One day I brought home over 100lb of merchandise from Costco on that affair, no mishap. It wasn't an easy ride, the handlebars wanted to wobble back and forth. It wasn't exactly stable. I had to use some muscle to maintain balance, but I made it. Weighed everything when I got home. Nowadays when I go to Costco (every other week) I drive my sedan (usually the only time I drive anywhere since pandemic, before that I'd golf ~6 months/year, 2x/week, plus probably a drive up there to the range on the weekend). So easy peasy driving my car to Costco, I make a stop at Trader Joe's on the return trip.

These days I have a different road bike, that Schwinn's frame broke. No basket on the front, but I'm using the same Pletscher Rack, to which I have attached a good sized front basket from which I removed the struts. I've repaired that basket and the Pletscher Rack numerous times. I do that stuff, repairing things is something I like to do. You don't see me riding a bike with a backpack on my back. I plop my backpack in the basket along with my U-lock/cable affair.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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Which is why it could be argued as wreckless to encourage all these ebike users to take to the streets with so little protection against larger vehicles. Enticing people to be put in harm's way is a very significant part of the safety equation. Motorcyclists know this and have much louder, faster vehicles that aren't constantly being passed by motorists like an (up to) 28MPH ebike will.

If having less protection were a good thing then why are automobiles built to the opposite standard with increasing weight to get there, then we go and encourage less safe modes of transportation . The safety argument doesn't fly because we both know a 30% discount on an ebike won't remove larger vehicles from the roads any decade soon, nor magically make ebike paths pop up everywhere there is already infrastructure.

Except the infrastructure is already there and does not include the lanes and parking in most areas, so it's not so simple unless you want government to just seize millions of properties along side the right of every existing road to do this, then spend all that money too, which will take many years if it ever came to be, so not really a solution and is putting the cart before the horse.

what could be argued also is that you are providing zero solutions and your attitude will only help exacerbate the status quo - which is increased traffic due to total reliance on automobiles. Your argument that we can't build infrastructure for bikes is nonsense. NYC, one of the most crowded and tight cities in the country has done exactly that, and ridership has gone up exponentially. They didn't knock down buildings to build bike lanes.

Ebikes around my part of jersey have popped up like crazy lately, and it's fine. There is no sudden massive spike in ebike deaths. If I had an ebike I would definitely use it for errands that required carrying a bunch of stuff home, mainly grocery runs, because around here that means hills. I would still own a car, but that would take my car off the road for that trip. And let me tell you, every car off the road around here at certain times is a blessing. If more people did that, we'd be on the way to easing traffic, and emissions, quite a bit.

Ebikes are part of the solution. In your statements there are no solutions.
 
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Pohemi

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Oct 2, 2004
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...so it's not so simple unless you want government to just seize millions of properties...
...when there isn't enough safe areas of infrastructure for a wide adoption.
...it could be argued as wreckless...
...Enticing people to be put in harm's way...
...If having less protection...
...The safety argument doesn't fly because...
:rolleyes:
Nobody was trying to make a "safety argument".
That's quite a double-post of strawman bullshit that you pulled out.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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:rolleyes:
Nobody was trying to make a "safety argument".
That's quite a double-post of strawman bullshit that you pulled out.
On the contrary, I DID make a safety argument. So what? It's about ebikes so relevant to the topic.

If you don't have a counter for it, nor do you need one (can just stop reading at any time) stating strawman bullshit just wastes your time.
 
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Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
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Except the infrastructure (meaning existing roads, buildings, etc already built) is already there and does not include the lanes and parking for ebikes in most areas, so it's not so simple unless you want government to just seize millions of properties (+ easements) along side every existing road to do this, then spend all that money too, which will take many years if it ever came to be (many areas are not so liberal as Portland (in the linked study) or CA), so not really a solution and is putting the cart before the horse to incentivize people buying bikes to make some significant difference when there isn't enough safe areas of infrastructure for a wide adoption.


OMG!!!
Something that might benefit a huge number of people, the environment, will cost money and take time. Can't have that!!! The "fix" has to be all-encompassing and immediate or nothing doing!!!!

I've heard variations on this argument time and again...it's lame.

Interestingly, in Georgia of all places, bike lane creation is being done with a combination of restriping roads or road widening when repaving/etc., using easements. And I do believe the area is sorta deep reddish....
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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OMG!!!
Something that might benefit a huge number of people, the environment, will cost money and take time. Can't have that!!! The "fix" has to be all-encompassing and immediate or nothing doing!!!!

I've heard variations on this argument time and again...it's lame.

Interestingly, in Georgia of all places, bike lane creation is being done with a combination of restriping roads or road widening when repaving/etc., using easements. And I do believe the area is sorta deep reddish....

it is lame. I'm still waiting for @mindless1 to advise how NYC has built and is continuing to build miles and miles of really good bike infrastructure in one the most dense and one of the most tightest cities in America without knocking down a single building or using eminent domain. And all the other cities that have done the same.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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I love e-bikes. We own several. My wife uses one daily to bike to work. I use one daily to get my son to school and back and also to practices. In the last year we've put over 3,000 miles combined on our bikes. I live in Portland and I use this all the time as my "bike truck". It's so much easier to get around town. I think they are amazingly empowering devices that get people out, get more cars off the road, and generally are a very sustainable way to reduce vehicle traffic in lots of major urban areas.

1635787820009.png
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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OMG!!!
Something that might benefit a huge number of people, the environment, will cost money and take time. Can't have that!!! The "fix" has to be all-encompassing and immediate or nothing doing!!!!

First, it won't necessarily benefit a huge # of people, more like a few in certain areas where the infrastructure was already planned out. I'll bet that "most" of the subsidized ebikes are not used daily, nor when it is snowy or rainy which is including Portland the linked study area, which has almost a 50/50 chance of daily rain.

If the bikes aren't being ridden by a huge # of people, most of the time, there is the environmental impact of building them, the landfill when disposing of them, and all the equity society has to devote to them. They are not *free*, revenue has to be generated somehow and that pollutes too.

The "fix" should be balanced, not a program bolstered by suggestions of an impossible goal, until the point in time when the goal is realistic and THEN it is time to talk about how to get people to use the infrastructure, but I just don't see ebikes as the solution even if it existed, rather it will just clog up roads if more than a small # of people use them, in most areas of the country.

If you want to be part of that small #, good for you (!) but there is a finite # the existing infrastructure can support.

I've heard variations on this argument time and again...it's lame.

Interestingly, in Georgia of all places, bike lane creation is being done with a combination of restriping roads or road widening when repaving/etc., using easements. And I do believe the area is sorta deep reddish....

Yes, the argument keeps coming back because the issues don't disappear no matter how great it would be if they did. It's not lame to face reality, that this can only work well in areas optimized for it, and still up to a certain limit which is very unlikely to be 15% of vehicles in the best case, any year soon. If we want to talk about 20 years from now, that's when to have a program for the ebikes.
 
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vi edit

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Oct 28, 1999
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Re: Portland and rain. Meh. I did a full winter bike commuting in the wettest January on record. Yeah there were about 2-3 days that year that it was 30 degrees, raining sideways and dark for what felt like 20 hours of the day and I just wanted to be in a warm car. But whatever. You just get rain gear and deal with it. My wife rides year round to work as she can't even get a parking spot if she wanted to drive. Biking is a 15 minute ride for her. The last place we worked (a major university) it was a grueling 40 minute drive and then a 15 minute walk once we got there. I'd take a couple miserable days to save 80 minutes every day.

The biggest hurdle is bike friendly employers. No one wants to keep a $2,000+ bike out in the rain all days. Or out easily stolen. And on days you do roll in soaked to the bone you want a place to change clothes and hang stuff up. We both had offices that support that. Most don't. It's interesting to note that in the space you can park 1-2 cars, you can put in a bike locker that can hold 15-30 bikes easily. So the real estate required for storing them is minimal if you can secure a room for it. Showers is the harder one.

Most cities are facing crumbling infrastructure, especially ones that boomed in the last 20 years and had population explosions stressing their main streets and highways. It's time they start looking at alternative ways in incentivizing non-single occupancy car commuting.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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Yes, the argument keeps coming back because the issues don't disappear no matter how great it would be if they did. It's not lame to face reality, that this can only work well in areas optimized for it, and still up to a certain limit which is very unlikely to be 15% of vehicles in the best case, any year soon. If we want to talk about 20 years from now, that's when to have a program for the ebikes.

Except you are wrong, and I gave you one of the biggest examples of a city with no space optimized for bike infrastructure, and and has done it. There are several other cities and areas that have done it too, that had really no space to expand but used existing space without doing anything drastic. You continue to ignore it and don't respond because it doesn't go with your narrative that it's not feasible. There is no time better than the now to expand bike infrastructure in places where it makes sense, which many cities have done so already with great success. Around 700K Citibike rides a week in NYC during busy months, which includes absolutely zero rides on privately owned bikes, and a program that is still being expanded and is not in many areas yet. You just don't like that type of success as it goes against your car-centric brainwashed mind.
 
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Re: Portland and rain. Meh. I did a full winter bike commuting in the wettest January on record. Yeah there were about 2-3 days that year that it was 30 degrees, raining sideways and dark for what felt like 20 hours of the day and I just wanted to be in a warm car. But whatever. You just get rain gear and deal with it. My wife rides year round to work as she can't even get a parking spot if she wanted to drive. Biking is a 15 minute ride for her. The last place we worked (a major university) it was a grueling 40 minute drive and then a 15 minute walk once we got there. I'd take a couple miserable days to save 80 minutes every day.

The biggest hurdle is bike friendly employers. No one wants to keep a $2,000+ bike out in the rain all days. Or out easily stolen. And on days you do roll in soaked to the bone you want a place to change clothes and hang stuff up. We both had offices that support that. Most don't. It's interesting to note that in the space you can park 1-2 cars, you can put in a bike locker that can hold 15-30 bikes easily. So the real estate required for storing them is minimal if you can secure a room for it. Showers is the harder one.

Most cities are facing crumbling infrastructure, especially ones that boomed in the last 20 years and had population explosions stressing their main streets and highways. It's time they start looking at alternative ways in incentivizing non-single occupancy car commuting.
My wife biked to work (about 1.5-2 miles) every day for nearly 2 years in Boston weather, rain, snow, wind, etc... Right gear, you're fine.
 
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vi edit

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Yep. Just need a good rain coat, $30 set of rain pants and $30 set of shoe covers. $150 or so and you can wear the jacket most of the year. It's not a big deal. I wouldn't want to do a lot of riding in the ice/snow though.
 
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Yep. Just need a good rain coat, $30 set of rain pants and $30 set of shoe covers. $150 or so and you can wear the jacket most of the year. It's not a big deal. I wouldn't want to do a lot of riding in the ice/snow though.
As long as the road was plowed, she generally found it fine. And Cambridge and Somerville actually dedicated equipment and people to clear bike lanes as well as the main parts of the streets.