Time Person of the Year - U.S. Soldier: For facing bullets in executing the Policies of those that Lead them

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colonel

Golden Member
Apr 22, 2001
1,777
18
81
Please show me where it is written (except perhaps by Karl Marx) that everyone has a right to an education...
it is a shame to see this kind of comment , babarians defeated Rome and Europe got the Dark Ages may be we have to give no education becuase is a socialist idea......
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Originally posted by: Napalm
Let me get this straight - the time "person" of the year is the poor and victimized "U.S. soldier" who puts his/her life on the line acting as a human pawn in an ultra right-wing administration's excellent adventure in the middle east?

Was there really nobody out there this year who made a tangible contribution to the planet? Sorry to be so blunt, but this is truly pathetic.

N
Why don't you read a Canadian magazine and critisize their choices instead?
 

KK

Lifer
Jan 2, 2001
15,903
4
81
If the troops didn't receive the award then Bush should have.

KK
 
Jan 12, 2003
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Originally posted by: GrGr


UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights see Article 26 :p

Isn't you the one always harping about how poor people should get an education so that they can get a decent job?
"Or, perhaps they should try to obtain more marketable skills needed in today's workforce?"
A UN document? Pallllleeezzzzeeeee. If you think you have a "RIGHT" to an education because of that, you, sir, are foolish.

 
Jan 12, 2003
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Moreover...your UN document also presupposes the following:

(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.


A is A.





 
Jan 12, 2003
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Further, your gay friends might not like Article 16:

Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.


I does not mention Adam and Steve, so you might want to hold off replacing our Constitution and Bill of Rights.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
Let's be realistic here guys. The major reason people join the military now is for the college scholarship they will earn.
Barely. Just over 27 percent of recruits view education benefits as a reason for enlistment. A further 25 percent see more immediate benefits such as travel, service to country and self-discipline as reasons to join. 12.6 percent enlist for the pay and 10.9 percent for job security. Various other reasons are given for the remainder of recruits.

"Attitudes, Aptitudes, and Aspirations of American Youth: Implications for Military Recruitment" Board on Behavioral, Cognitive, and Sensory Sciences and Education (2003)

Originally posted by: GrGr

Then maybe it would be just to change the system so that poor people could afford to go to college without having to gamble with their lives by serving in illegal wars, started by corrupt politicians, in order to get the education that is their right?
We basically have two choices. Either allow recruiters to compete with the colleges, grants, scholarships, student loans, mommy and daddy's nest eggs, etc. or reinstitute conscription. In our society, I believe the former is generally more preferable to the latter.
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
Originally posted by: colonel
Please show me where it is written (except perhaps by Karl Marx) that everyone has a right to an education...
it is a shame to see this kind of comment , babarians defeated Rome and Europe got the Dark Ages may be we have to give no education becuase is a socialist idea......
Education is a basic human right. Denying it is shameful. We must be on guard against greedy neo-conservative trash who would dismantle civilization to keep a few extra shekels in their pockets.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Ldir
Originally posted by: colonel
Please show me where it is written (except perhaps by Karl Marx) that everyone has a right to an education...
it is a shame to see this kind of comment , babarians defeated Rome and Europe got the Dark Ages may be we have to give no education becuase is a socialist idea......
Education is a basic human right. Denying it is shameful. We must be on guard against greedy neo-conservative trash who would dismantle civilization to keep a few extra shekels in their pockets.
You heard the AT experts, I don't even have to grab their quotes, they're all over the place in here. The AT NeoCon experts want the mass of the population to be as stupid as possible to fill all the HIGH paying Wal-Mart positions.


 
Jan 12, 2003
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674


The AT NeoCon experts want the mass of the population to be as stupid as possible to fill all the HIGH paying Wal-Mart positions.
...more emotionally-loaded nonsense we have come to expect. The point I was making above relates to the topical debate over "rights."

No one stated that anyone wants "the mass of the population to be as stupid as possible" and that Wal-Mart is where the stupid people work; yet illogical inferences like these are drawn. The reason people arrive at flawed conclusions is because they begin with flawed premises. Many begin with the premise that they possess certain unalienable ?rights? and attach these ?rights? to anything they believe they have a claim to ? take employment, for instance. Judging from most of the ?Wal-Wart is evil? threads, there are quite a number of people who believe they have a ?right? to have a certain job and to receive a certain wage (above and beyond the minimum prescribed by law). I would argue that you do not have a ?right? to a job, but instead, having a job is a privilege that should be earned (please save the ?well, what about those who have a job and did not earn it nonsense?whole different topic altogether). Just because you went to college and received your MSCEhijklmno certification and overclock your graphic card does not ?entitle? you to a job in the IT field. Just because you have always worked in the steel factory does not necessarily give you the right to always work in a steel factory, or to always have a job. Just because you want to work does not necessarily mean you have a claim to a job. Again, there is no inherent right to work in man. Do I wish everyone who were actively seeking employment the good fortunes of finding employment?sure (though I also understand the economics behind employment and realize that not everyone can have a job in a society). I do, however, have absolute respect for people who want to work. I do not, however, think people have a ?right? to work. Analogously, I do not think you have the right to an education. Granted, I believe it is in every nation?s interest to facilitate a system of education that produces a well-educated citizenry, but again, there is no inherent ?right? to an education in man. Man should seek to educate himself, but man should not become complacent and feel he has a ?right? to an education.

I think the time has come to move away a system of so-called entitlements and realize that, as the old adage goes, there is no such thing as a free lunch?and one should not expect one (or say they have a "right" to receive one) under the cloak of perceived ?rights.?


 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,872
4,216
126
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: dmcowen674


The AT NeoCon experts want the mass of the population to be as stupid as possible to fill all the HIGH paying Wal-Mart positions.
...more emotionally-loaded nonsense we have come to expect. The point I was making above relates to the topical debate over "rights."

No one stated that anyone wants "the mass of the population to be as stupid as possible" and that Wal-Mart is where the stupid people work; yet illogical inferences like these are drawn. The reason people arrive at flawed conclusions is because they begin with flawed premises. Many begin with the premise that they possess certain unalienable ?rights? and attach these ?rights? to anything they believe they have a claim to ? take employment, for instance. Judging from most of the ?Wal-Wart is evil? threads, there are quite a number of people who believe they have a ?right? to have a certain job and to receive a certain wage (above and beyond the minimum prescribed by law). I would argue that you do not have a ?right? to a job, but instead, having a job is a privilege that should be earned (please save the ?well, what about those who have a job and did not earn it nonsense?whole different topic altogether). Just because you went to college and received your MSCEhijklmno certification and overclock your graphic card does not ?entitle? you to a job in the IT field. Just because you have always worked in the steel factory does not necessarily give you the right to always work in a steel factory, or to always have a job. Just because you want to work does not necessarily mean you have a claim to a job. Again, there is no inherent right to work in man. Do I wish everyone who were actively seeking employment the good fortunes of finding employment?sure (though I also understand the economics behind employment and realize that not everyone can have a job in a society). I do, however, have absolute respect for people who want to work. I do not, however, think people have a ?right? to work. Analogously, I do not think you have the right to an education. Granted, I believe it is in every nation?s interest to facilitate a system of education that produces a well-educated citizenry, but again, there is no inherent ?right? to an education in man. Man should seek to educate himself, but man should not become complacent and feel he has a ?right? to an education.

I think the time has come to move away a system of so-called entitlements and realize that, as the old adage goes, there is no such thing as a free lunch?and one should not expect one (or say they have a "right" to receive one) under the cloak of perceived ?rights.?
So you are the adjudicator of rights now. I think there is reason to be concern on both sides of the issue.

Now, I have a question Galt.

You say no one has a right to an education. I contend that everyone is due that opportunity. I also contend that society has the right to take money out of the pockets of both of us to provide it.

Now, you have your version of "rights" and I have mine.

Can you get out your absolute right-o-meter and tell me how you are correct and I am not?

It boils down to opinions. You claim you have rights in these regards, and others do not.

Frankly IMO, there are no inalienable rights at all. No one has any inherent rights, and as a society we define what they are. You wish to define them in a certain way, and I am free to disagree with you.

This next comment is about no one specifically, but I get the idea from many that a fine role model is Scrooge, and it was the evil ghosts who infringed on his proper perspective.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: dmcowen674


The AT NeoCon experts want the mass of the population to be as stupid as possible to fill all the HIGH paying Wal-Mart positions.
...more emotionally-loaded nonsense we have come to expect. The point I was making above relates to the topical debate over "rights."

No one stated that anyone wants "the mass of the population to be as stupid as possible" and that Wal-Mart is where the stupid people work; yet illogical inferences like these are drawn. The reason people arrive at flawed conclusions is because they begin with flawed premises. Many begin with the premise that they possess certain unalienable ?rights? and attach these ?rights? to anything they believe they have a claim to ? take employment, for instance. Judging from most of the ?Wal-Wart is evil? threads, there are quite a number of people who believe they have a ?right? to have a certain job and to receive a certain wage (above and beyond the minimum prescribed by law). I would argue that you do not have a ?right? to a job, but instead, having a job is a privilege that should be earned (please save the ?well, what about those who have a job and did not earn it nonsense?whole different topic altogether). Just because you went to college and received your MSCEhijklmno certification and overclock your graphic card does not ?entitle? you to a job in the IT field. Just because you have always worked in the steel factory does not necessarily give you the right to always work in a steel factory, or to always have a job. Just because you want to work does not necessarily mean you have a claim to a job. Again, there is no inherent right to work in man. Do I wish everyone who were actively seeking employment the good fortunes of finding employment?sure (though I also understand the economics behind employment and realize that not everyone can have a job in a society). I do, however, have absolute respect for people who want to work. I do not, however, think people have a ?right? to work. Analogously, I do not think you have the right to an education. Granted, I believe it is in every nation?s interest to facilitate a system of education that produces a well-educated citizenry, but again, there is no inherent ?right? to an education in man. Man should seek to educate himself, but man should not become complacent and feel he has a ?right? to an education.

I think the time has come to move away a system of so-called entitlements and realize that, as the old adage goes, there is no such thing as a free lunch?and one should not expect one (or say they have a "right" to receive one) under the cloak of perceived ?rights.?
Someone who "gets it" :D

:beer::D:beer:

CkG
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: dmcowen674


The AT NeoCon experts want the mass of the population to be as stupid as possible to fill all the HIGH paying Wal-Mart positions.
...more emotionally-loaded nonsense we have come to expect. The point I was making above relates to the topical debate over "rights."

No one stated that anyone wants "the mass of the population to be as stupid as possible" and that Wal-Mart is where the stupid people work; yet illogical inferences like these are drawn. The reason people arrive at flawed conclusions is because they begin with flawed premises. Many begin with the premise that they possess certain unalienable ?rights? and attach these ?rights? to anything they believe they have a claim to ? take employment, for instance. Judging from most of the ?Wal-Wart is evil? threads, there are quite a number of people who believe they have a ?right? to have a certain job and to receive a certain wage (above and beyond the minimum prescribed by law). I would argue that you do not have a ?right? to a job, but instead, having a job is a privilege that should be earned (please save the ?well, what about those who have a job and did not earn it nonsense?whole different topic altogether). Just because you went to college and received your MSCEhijklmno certification and overclock your graphic card does not ?entitle? you to a job in the IT field. Just because you have always worked in the steel factory does not necessarily give you the right to always work in a steel factory, or to always have a job. Just because you want to work does not necessarily mean you have a claim to a job. Again, there is no inherent right to work in man. Do I wish everyone who were actively seeking employment the good fortunes of finding employment?sure (though I also understand the economics behind employment and realize that not everyone can have a job in a society). I do, however, have absolute respect for people who want to work. I do not, however, think people have a ?right? to work. Analogously, I do not think you have the right to an education. Granted, I believe it is in every nation?s interest to facilitate a system of education that produces a well-educated citizenry, but again, there is no inherent ?right? to an education in man. Man should seek to educate himself, but man should not become complacent and feel he has a ?right? to an education.

I think the time has come to move away a system of so-called entitlements and realize that, as the old adage goes, there is no such thing as a free lunch?and one should not expect one (or say they have a "right" to receive one) under the cloak of perceived ?rights.?
Someone who "gets it" :D

:beer::D:beer:

CkG
Whether or not you have a right to an education, getting an education here in the US is almost as easy as waking up in the morning. All you have to do is take advantage of the opportunity available to you.
 
Jan 12, 2003
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

You say no one has a right to an education. I contend that everyone is due that opportunity.
I concur, with emphasis on "opportunity" and not "right."



I also contend that society has the right to take money out of the pockets of both of us to provide it.
Generally speaking, I disagree; however, with the passage of the Income Tax Act, I will now agree with you --our society has a right to take money out of our pockets.



Now, you have your version of "rights" and I have mine.
So if we have conflicting "versions of rights," could one argue that these perceived "rights" are universal? If not, then are they, in fact, "rights?"

Can you get out your absolute right-o-meter and tell me how you are correct and I am not?
My point exactly. No, I can not...neither can you.



Frankly IMO, there are no inalienable rights at all.
I disagree; we have the "right" to freewill and thought.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

So you are the adjudicator of rights now. I think there is reason to be concern on both sides of the issue.

Now, I have a question Galt.

You say no one has a right to an education. I contend that everyone is due that opportunity. I also contend that society has the right to take money out of the pockets of both of us to provide it.

Now, you have your version of "rights" and I have mine.

Can you get out your absolute right-o-meter and tell me how you are correct and I am not?

It boils down to opinions. You claim you have rights in these regards, and others do not.

Frankly IMO, there are no inalienable rights at all. No one has any inherent rights, and as a society we define what they are. You wish to define them in a certain way, and I am free to disagree with you.

This next comment is about no one specifically, but I get the idea from many that a fine role model is Scrooge, and it was the evil ghosts who infringed on his proper perspective.
No- society has laws that provide for them to take money from me to pay for things. I think what you are talking about is the "rights" that society grants itself either by popular will or by gov't edict. However what I and JG(I hope this is what he is saying;)) is that there is no inalienable right to things people expect to be given to them. The "right to public education" is a societal "right". IMO the gov't is not the granter of individual rights, but does grant itself rights - gov't is the limiter of rights but does however reaffirm some of them with certain documents.
You have ZERO right to any of my earnings...but because the gov't thinks it's in the best interest of "society" - they gave themselves the right to take a portion of my earnings. Understand yet? You seem to think that society grants individual rights - whereas it really is just the limiting of the individual for the collective.

CkG
 
Jan 12, 2003
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn



Whether or not you have a right to an education, getting an education here in the US is almost as easy as waking up in the morning. All you have to do is take advantage of the opportunity available to you.
For what it's worth (I am sure not much; this and a $.25 will get you a cup of coffee), my respect for you increased threefold :) (was going to be twofold, but your correct usage of "opportunity" received a double gold star).



 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: dmcowen674


The AT NeoCon experts want the mass of the population to be as stupid as possible to fill all the HIGH paying Wal-Mart positions.
...more emotionally-loaded nonsense we have come to expect. The point I was making above relates to the topical debate over "rights."

No one stated that anyone wants "the mass of the population to be as stupid as possible" and that Wal-Mart is where the stupid people work; yet illogical inferences like these are drawn. The reason people arrive at flawed conclusions is because they begin with flawed premises. Many begin with the premise that they possess certain unalienable ?rights? and attach these ?rights? to anything they believe they have a claim to ? take employment, for instance. Judging from most of the ?Wal-Wart is evil? threads, there are quite a number of people who believe they have a ?right? to have a certain job and to receive a certain wage (above and beyond the minimum prescribed by law). I would argue that you do not have a ?right? to a job, but instead, having a job is a privilege that should be earned (please save the ?well, what about those who have a job and did not earn it nonsense?whole different topic altogether). Just because you went to college and received your MSCEhijklmno certification and overclock your graphic card does not ?entitle? you to a job in the IT field. Just because you have always worked in the steel factory does not necessarily give you the right to always work in a steel factory, or to always have a job. Just because you want to work does not necessarily mean you have a claim to a job. Again, there is no inherent right to work in man. Do I wish everyone who were actively seeking employment the good fortunes of finding employment?sure (though I also understand the economics behind employment and realize that not everyone can have a job in a society). I do, however, have absolute respect for people who want to work. I do not, however, think people have a ?right? to work. Analogously, I do not think you have the right to an education. Granted, I believe it is in every nation?s interest to facilitate a system of education that produces a well-educated citizenry, but again, there is no inherent ?right? to an education in man. Man should seek to educate himself, but man should not become complacent and feel he has a ?right? to an education.

I think the time has come to move away a system of so-called entitlements and realize that, as the old adage goes, there is no such thing as a free lunch?and one should not expect one (or say they have a "right" to receive one) under the cloak of perceived ?rights.?
Someone who "gets it" :D

:beer::D:beer:

CkG
Whether or not you have a right to an education, getting an education here in the US is almost as easy as waking up in the morning. All you have to do is take advantage of the opportunity available to you.
EXACTLY!
You get some :beer::D:beer: too:D

<-- In full Christmas mode :D
 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
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Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

You have ZERO right to any of my earnings...but because the gov't thinks it's in the best interest of "society" - they gave themselves the right to take a portion of my earnings. Understand yet? You seem to think that society grants individual rights - whereas it really is just the limiting of the individual for the collective.
I love you, too.

 

JackStorm

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2003
1,216
0
0
I'm inclined to agree with galt here to a certain degree. I firmly belive that if you want a job or want an education you should do everything in your power to obtain a job or get an education. There are enough lazy people in the world who expect everything handed to them without doing anything to earn it. And yes, I've been unemployed, so I know how that feels. But I, like most people, forced myself to get another job (granted I hate my current job, but that's irrelivant). That's just how life is. Some times it sucks. You just have to accept that it does and move on and not whine about what you should or shouldn't have.

I really wish people were ready to fight for these "rights" they expect. Now a days everyone just wants sh*t handed to them. People are geting laziers and more complacent with each generation. Only "rights" I want or expect is the right to say or think what I want. And yes, if someone where to try to take these things from me I'd fight their ass to obtain them again.

Moral of the story is (my story atlest :p ): Want something? then work/fight for it!
 

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