Time for the UBL party to stop before the house falls down around us...

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
Ah, yes. Time for the foreign press to wake us up and give us a nice dose of reality. But DER SPIEGEL is right. Thanks to members of both parties, the last decade has brought the United States to the brink of bankrupty. The house (of cards) is about collapse upon us. Time for the party to stop and for the real, more pressing (budget) battles here at home to be fought.

Bin Laden's Death Comes 10 Years Too Late

President Barack Obama smiled as he announced the death of Osama bin Laden. It was a satisfied smile at a moment in which America was once again sure of its own power. It was a historic picture, just like the images of the flag-waving celebrants in front of the White House. It looked like America truly did win the war on terror, 10 years later.

The photos will take their place in the long list of iconic images that this decade of terror has produced: the American flag on Ground Zero after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001; the toppled statue of Saddam Hussein after the invasion of Iraq, and later the Iraqi dictator cowering in a hole in the ground; the faces of Afghani women who were being allowed to vote for the first time; and in between, naturally, the warlord George W. Bush in his bomber jacket in front of the sign reading "Mission Accomplished."

Unfortunately, all of these images have one thing in common: They all are simply snapshots, good for appearances, nothing more. The mission was not accomplished. And even the death of Osama bin Laden will not provide a happy ending for America's tale of woe.

Because America is no longer the country it was before 9/11. That's something not even a courageous team of Navy Seals can change.

That is partially because the dead bin Laden is no longer the biggest trophy in the war against terror. There was a time when he really did appear to be the most dangerous man in the world, when the West feared every new message. Those were the months, maybe years, when no attack appeared impossible, and no airport, train station, or nuclear power plant appeared safe enough.

But those times are long gone. In the meantime, the one-time prince of terror had become just a curious relic of another age. When he appeared in his videos, clearly aged, he was no longer able to influence US elections.

His network had little to do with the recent Arab Revolution; his terror veterans have few connections to the Internet sites that have now become so important. What has become known about his final hiding place only reinforces the dreariness of bin Laden's recent existence. There was no telephone, and no Internet, and he had to burn his own garbage in order not to leave behind any evidence.

America learned a long time ago how to live with his threat. New York Times columnist Ross Douthat writes: "They can strike us, they can wound us, they can kill us ... But they are not, and never will be, an existential threat."

This view is actually a positive development. But it also means that the death of bin Laden cannot be viewed as a real breakthrough.

"We are a beleaguered America," the columist Howard Fineman summed up in the Huffington Post after the operation in Abbottabad. As proof, one simply needs to add up the numbers. At least 3,000 people died at the hands of mass-murderer bin Laden, and all efforts were justified to find him. But Washington didn't just begin a search for a criminal. Instead, it launched one of the largest campaigns for retribution in history.

On the American side, there have been about 6,000 dead US soldiers, not to mention $1.3 trillion in new federal debt that is attributed to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. But the real costs will likely be much higher. The US has accumulated a total debt burden of over $14 trillion, even though it was running a budget surplus just 10 years ago. The seemingly most powerful country in the world has to be worried about the prospect of having to officially declare insolvency before too long.

America has become so caught up in a culture of fear and anxiety that it spends more on defense than all other countries put together. And it is caught up in wars that it cannot win -- and which it no longer wants to fight, if one believes American opinion polls about the war in Afghanistan.
Of course, security is a country's most important right. But in the search of it, the United States has so far overshot the mark that its citizens have long had a greater fear of debt than of terrorism.

And while America was busy crippling itself, China racked up annual economic growth of almost 10 percent. According to the IMF, China, America's primary rival, will become the world's biggest economy sooner than expected, by 2016. Beijing has plenty of time to make strategic decisions, such as investing in green technologies. America is still debating in Congress whether or not climate change is real or imagined.

The US is still at the forefront of spending on election campaigns. The next US president will need about $1 billion to spend on aggressive advertising spots and smear campaigns against rivals, partly because the 9/11 attacks did not unify the country, but rather further drove the people apart. And while he was working out the final details of the bin Laden operation, Obama had to publicly release his full birth certificate last week, to dispel his detractors' claims that he is not a real American.

Amid the joyful frenzy in the US, all of this can be temporarily forgotten, and even Bush's Vice President Dick Cheney is now showing Obama respect. The president's triumph will bring him a short political breather. But he can't undo the lost American decade.

Perhaps the decade would have gone a little differently if US soldiers had killed bin Laden in the caves of Tora Bora in 2001. But the prince of terror disappeared for 10 years. And with his escape, he likely caused the Americans more damage than through anything else since 9/11.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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GTaudiophile is largely correct, even if you don;t like the verbage in calling GWB a warlord.

That point is and remains, Ossma Bin Laden was effective in his goals simply because we the people in the USA over reacted. And like it or not, in our so called war against terror, we created more terrorists than we killed.

The three trillion plus dollars we spent on war costs wrecked our economy, and did much
to cost us any world leadership role.

Now that Bin Laden is dead, we may be able to better defeat Al-Quida as an international terrorist organization, but in terms of the more prevalent form of regional terrorism, Bin Laden's death will have zero impact.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,516
8,584
136
The president's triumph will bring him a short political breather. But he can't undo the lost American decade.

The President can start somewhere.

How about ending the god damn molestation at airports? Our 'leaders' will continue to force this 'security' monstrosity upon us regardless of how many Osamas fall overseas.

How about sending our troops home?

That'd be a nice start towards undoing the damage we have done to ourselves.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
I think you prove the author's point.

If the author's point was that I refuse to read obviously biased claptrap, then yes I proved it.

Just as I won't watch or read any other over the top biased reporting. Can't stand it from either side.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Wait, they state that China will be working on green technology, but the US can't determine if climate change is real or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't China one of the three major countries that wouldn't sign the Kyoto Treaty along with the US. Why is Der Spiegel giving them a pass?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
GTaudiophile is largely correct, even if you don;t like the verbage in calling GWB a warlord.

That point is and remains, Ossma Bin Laden was effective in his goals simply because we the people in the USA over reacted. And like it or not, in our so called war against terror, we created more terrorists than we killed.

The three trillion plus dollars we spent on war costs wrecked our economy, and did much
to cost us any world leadership role.

Now that Bin Laden is dead, we may be able to better defeat Al-Quida as an international terrorist organization, but in terms of the more prevalent form of regional terrorism, Bin Laden's death will have zero impact.

The three trillion spent on the war costs didn't wreck our economy. The trillions "invested" (speculated) in housing and other forms of credit did.

One didn't have anything to do with the other.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,908
1,036
126
I rather live in a free country than the #1 economy in the world. What good is it moving the country towards the top if the government is suppressing standards of living to ensure they stay competitive?
I do see how there has been changes in the US in name of security but the odd thing is most people seem to be against it. The tricky part is that public opinion can swing according to events. People are against the body scanner but if they were taken out and an airport gets bombed then they would demand the government take action. I just fear in time we'll be like England in terms of lack of privacy for the sake of security.

The three trillion spent on the war costs didn't wreck our economy. The trillions "invested" (speculated) in housing and other forms of credit did.

One didn't have anything to do with the other.

I blame China for lending us the money. turns out it was just the rope to hang ourselves with.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I rather live in a free country than the #1 economy in the world. What good is it moving the country towards the top if the government is suppressing standards of living to ensure they stay competitive?

In one way, a stronger economy allows for more freedom (unfortunately, because it means the less strong economies are being more oppressed).

In another way, the measures needed for 'dominance' can be a heavy price to pay including in 'freedoms', the choice, per Chalmers Johnson, empire or democracy?


I blame China for lending us the money. turns out it was just the rope to hang ourselves with.[/QUOTE]

Publicly held debt: just under $10 trillion, total debt: $14 trillion.

China's share: $1.1 trillion.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The three trillion spent on the war costs didn't wreck our economy. The trillions "invested" (speculated) in housing and other forms of credit did.

One didn't have anything to do with the other.

Something else that isn't going to help: the continuing 'privatization' (ask Russia).

Things like Chicago selling the rights to the parking meter revenue fo rthe next *75* years for one low price for money to help with the budget one year.

Medicare's 'overhead' is 3%, social security's is under 5%, both of these program go to 20-30% overhead if 'privatized'. Yes, the government is more efficient at some things.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,374
8,499
126
Medicare's 'overhead' is 3%, social security's is under 5%, both of these program go to 20-30% overhead if 'privatized'. Yes, the government is more efficient at some things.

medicare fraud is 10% by itself, and that is certainly overhead.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
medicare fraud is 10% by itself, and that is certainly overhead.

You're correct. I don't count it as 'overhead' in the sense of how we think of the term - the government's efficiencies allow for much less overhead, for example, the private systems have hundreds of companies with different forms dealing with claims and constantly battling over them for long times, IIRC I heard a report something like 30% of the money goes to this paperwork. But we should recognize the cost of this fraud.

One of the problems for Medicare is that Republicans gut the enforcement budget - indeed that's a problem for all of government.

Even the IRS has had its collections for wealthy taxpayers slashed, costing the government huge sums in what it would collect.

A 60 Minutes report exposed a lot of this fraud, and identified south florida as a central point for it with one convicted fraudster estimate only 5% of the companies there are legitimate - and yet the government has only three investigators for all of South Florida. The responsible officials say this is crippling for going after fraud.

It should also be recognized that the private sector would either have expenses either from fraud, or from larger investments in fraud prevention than the government makes.

So, your point is a good one, that reduces the gap between the government and the privatized alternative until the government increases enforcement.

But the gap is still large in favor of government.

...our oversight budget has been extremely limited," [Head of Medicare fraud prevention] Brandt said.

About that there is little dispute: Medicare has just three field inspectors in all of South Florida to check up on thousands of questionable medical equipment companies.

"Clearly more auditing needs to be done and it needs to be done in real time," Attorney General Eric Holder said.

Asked why it has taken Medicare so long to figure out they were being scammed, Holder told Kroft, "I think lack of resources probably. And then I think people I don't think necessarily thought that something as well intentioned as Medicare and Medicaid would necessarily attract fraudsters. But I think we have to understand that it certainly has."

The Obama administration is providing Medicare with an additional $200 million to fight fraud as part of its stimulus package, and billions of dollars to computerize medical records and upgrade networks, which should help Medicare catch more phony charges.

But Tony, who has just begun serving his 12 year prison sentence, says there's no shortage of people in Miami waiting to take his place.

Asked how many people in Miami were doing this, Tony said, "I'd say at least 2,000 people. At least 2,000, 3,000 companies."

He estimated that less than five percent of these companies were legitimate.

"If went to the phone book and looked under medical equipment suppliers, 95 percent of the companies would be phony?" Kroft asked.

"Yes, sir," Tony replied.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/23/60minutes/main5414390.shtml#ixzz1LKCW90MB
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,374
8,499
126
why are we even looking at overhead as a % cost rather than as a per beneficiary dollar figure? % cost is going to be lower for medicare simply because the population covered by medicare is generally sicker and so per beneficiary spending on care is necessarily higher.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
I rather live in a free country than the #1 economy in the world. What good is it moving the country towards the top if the government is suppressing standards of living to ensure they stay competitive?
I do see how there has been changes in the US in name of security but the odd thing is most people seem to be against it. The tricky part is that public opinion can swing according to events. People are against the body scanner but if they were taken out and an airport gets bombed then they would demand the government take action. I just fear in time we'll be like England in terms of lack of privacy for the sake of security.



I blame China for lending us the money. turns out it was just the rope to hang ourselves with.

Not sure who your pointing to that isn't staying competitive vs suppressing standards of living.

China had no choice but to lend us the money, it is a simple function of the trade/current account surplus. They have hung themselves with the rope, the funtion of QE is to kick the chair out from underneath them.

You're seeing that now with the RNMB floating upwards and their economic activity heading the other way.
 

Generator

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
793
0
0
The son of a bitch pretty much brought the country to the brink. Of the big four gov expenditures its safe to say at least a 1/3 of them will have to go. Medicaid, medicare, wars, and social security. One of those programs will be eliminated.

Osama also taunted us, dared us, and we fell right into the trap. Trillions wasted to get this one man. THIS ONE MAN DID THIS TO US! Americans go to the movies to watch figures like OBL. Sure he is a muslim's Jason Bourne/Jack Bauer, but the nightmare he put this country through was unbelievable.

Then the really depressing thing is that the radical right parlayed this war on terrorism into their own pathetic agendas. Bush deliberately invited an attack, deliberately let Al-queda live, and then had the gall to not care about the very person who was the reason for being in the middle east. The fact that Republicans played politics with guy and his terror is unforgivable.
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
Common knowledge, google it. If you find that hard, let me know.

lol common practice for you to just spout "common knowledge" mention google and leaving it at that. If it is so easy, why not provide us with some links and UNBIASED data to look at? :D

Anyway, I read the whole quoted part. Dunno why, I just did. He's got an interesting view on things. Glad he isn't in charge.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
Ah, yes. Time for the foreign press to wake us up and give us a nice dose of reality. But DER SPIEGEL is right. Thanks to members of both parties, the last decade has brought the United States to the brink of bankrupty. The house (of cards) is about collapse upon us. Time for the party to stop and for the real, more pressing (budget) battles here at home to be fought.


The whole problem is we fight way too fucking much! The whole country acts like one big dysfunctional family where conflict, misbehavior, and abuse are a normal everyday part of life and considered the only sane way to get what you want. It isn't merely a "culture of fear and anxiety" used for wars in foreign countries, but a way of life right here at home complete with plenty of hatred and self-loathing. It isn't just a problem that's surfaced over the last decade either, but has been building for much longer then that.

Das Spiegel can take their holier-then-tho attitude and trite advice and shove it up their ass. It isn't constructive and merely adds fuel to the fire which, at the rate things are going, could explode into serious violence. If they don't have something meaningful to suggest they should stay the fuck out of this one.
 
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