Time for the Sun to Set on the Bush Tax Cuts

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
http://thecenterholds.com/2012/11/20/time-for-the-sun-to-set-on-the-bush-tax-cuts/

Ever since the election ended, most of the buzz around Washington — and the rest of the country — has been focused on the impending “fiscal cliff”. This overly-dramatic phrase refers to a set of spending reductions and tax increases that are due to take effect at the start of 2013. Both Republicans and Democrats are concerned about the impact these may have on a fragile, slowly-recovering economy, even though many of them are responsible for these events being about to occur, and their timing as well. And, of course, the two sides differ on what should be done to avoid the “crisis”.

I guess I have to start by observing that members of Congress, and the president, have spent years claiming that debts and deficits are a big problem, while running up huge debts and deficits, and now that we finally face the possibility of the deficit being significantly reduced, nobody wants to do it. No big surprise there.

Similarly, much of the “fiscal cliff” results from automatic spending cuts due to the Budget Control Act of 2011, cuts that are only going to take place because the people oh-so-worried about the “cliff” couldn’t or wouldn’t negotiate anything that works better.

But what bothers me the most about this entire affair is that it is being used to rationalize further extending the so-called “Bush Tax Cuts”, reductions in tax rates and other changes that were instituted in 2001 and 2003. These were implemented using the budget reconciliation process, which allows the normal possibility of a filibuster to be bypassed.

The intention of reconciliation was to allow for speedy passage of federal budget bills — and specifically, to ensure that the budget stayed balanced — but it didn’t take long before some senators realized they could use it to try to push through bills that actually increased the budget deficit. To counter this, in 1985 the Byrd Rule was implemented (after former senator Robert Byrd), which among other provisions, prevents reconciliation from being used on any bill that increases the budget deficit beyond the “reconciliation period”, which is generally considered to be ten years. To avoid being thwarted by this rule, the Republican-controlled senate put a sunset provision on the Bush tax cuts so they would expire after ten years. This is why the tax cuts are temporary, rather than permanent. (These games were necessary because Democrats would likely have filibustered the tax cuts otherwise.)

At the time, the expiration of these tax cuts was actually used by Republicans to deflect criticism from Democrats that the cuts were a bad idea that would balloon the budget deficit. The claim was made that they were only temporary and would expire, so the complaints were overwrought.

Of course, we all know what really happens to “temporary” changes like tax cuts with sunset provisions — once people get used to them, they consider the “temporary” situation the status quo. It is analogous to companies that give a Christmas bonus to all of their employees year after year. At first, the people receiving these bonuses are grateful, but over time, they start to rely on these extra checks, and even expect them. If the bonuses stop coming, they don’t view this as losing something they never had a right to. On the contrary, they resentfully see it as a loss of an entitlement, even considering it a “pay cut”.

Naturally, this is happening with the Bush tax cuts as well, exacerbated by the addition of politics to the mix. Many people no longer view the expiration of the Bush tax cuts as something that should happen because of a designed-in sunset provision. Rather, they look at the Bush tax cuts as the “new normal”, consider any attempt to not extend them as improper or even unpatriotic. On talk radio, I have even heard pundits refer to the expiration of these cuts as a “tax increase” — a phrase that puts the sunset provision squarely on its ear in the same manner as people losing Christmas bonuses talking about “pay cuts”.

In 2010, President Obama agreed to allow the extension of the Bush tax cuts for all income brackets by two years. At the time, many on the left viewed this as a capitulation, but political analysts saw the shrewdness of the move: by making the expiration now occur shortly after the 2012 elections, the president ensured that he’d be in the driver’s seat regardless of the outcome. Had he lost, he’d have been a lame duck with no reason to extend the cuts further; and now that he’s won, he can use the pending expiration of the cuts as a bargaining chip. But while I can see the reasoning behind including the tax cuts in the larger negotiation over the “fiscal cliff” with Congress, I think an argument can be made that these tax cuts should be allowed to expire regardless.

From a political strategy standpoint, I think it makes sense for President Obama to use the GOP’s efforts to invert the concept of a sunset provision against them, in his effort to extend the lower rates only for the lower and middle classes. Right now, he’s being accused of wanting to “raise taxes on the rich”. If he simply allows the Bush-era cuts to expire, some folks will gripe about this as a “tax increase”, but that can be negated fairly quickly by proposing a new tax cut bill for those earning under whatever figure the politicians agree upon. Republicans wanting to block this will put themselves in the uncomfortable position of arguing against a middle-class tax cut.

But from a simple ethical point of view, I’d like to see the Bush tax cuts gone simply because of how they were put into place. Budget reconciliation was not supposed to be used to ram through massive partisan tax cuts that increase the budget deficit. The Byrd Rule is already pretty gutless if it allowed these two tax cut bills to go through, but the point of that rule is that bills that increase the deficit at least expire, and that’s exactly what should happen here.

Finally, I think it is important that tax rates go up both to help reduce the budget deficit, and to drive home the point that tax increases are not an instant death knell to the economy. In addition to calling the expiration of the Bush tax cuts a “tax increase”, members of Grover Norquist’s anti-tax cult seem to have conveniently forgotten that the economy did pretty well under the tax rates that existed during the Clinton presidency. Allowing a return to those rates may help break the religious fever surrounding taxes that is currently dominating the Republican Party.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
And if low taxes really caused the "job creators" to add as many jobs as the hype says, as low as the rates have gotten in the past few decades, they should be kidnapping people in the night so they could lavish them with jobs that pay 6 figures. Unemployment would be negative.

Somehow, I think the wealthy will still survive.



With that said, I'd also love to know that tax dollars weren't going to corrupt and inefficient causes.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
You know, I'm OK with the BTC expiring: They were temporary as you post, so it is right they should expire as they were planned to. I don't view it as 'raising taxes' but more like 'they're going back closer to where they should be'.

That being said, we simply do not have a revenue problem in this country. When one looks at what is collected by the Fed, then State, then county/local, revenue is not the problem. Spending is.

Until Congress can stick to realistic budgets and live within them, adjusting as revenues go down (as happened during the .com crash, 9/11, etc.), it is pointless to talk about raising taxes, on anyone, until Congress has first dealt with its crack problem...that is, its never ending spending problem.

When Congress and the Executive have proved over a couple of years that they have truly learned to live within their present revenue means, and, that's current spending with current revenue, not insanity never to happen 10 year projection BS numbers, then I'll be more than happy to sign up for a tax increase solely to be used to pay down the national/state debt.

Any other excus, er, reason = The largest middle finger Internet graphic ever.

Chuck
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
I don't view it as 'raising taxes' but more like 'they're going back closer to where they should be'.
However we view it, it's still a tax increase. People don't care that the bush rates weren't permanent.
 
Apr 27, 2012
10,086
58
86
The tax cuts should not expire, start with cutting the spending which is the real problem

The wars and the welfare need massive cuts
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
However we view it, it's still a tax increase. People don't care that the bush rates weren't permanent.

I know normal people won't, but, it's like getting something at a sale price, and then eventually, the sale ends and you pay full price again. It's time to pay full price.

If people can't understand that, they're really beyond help anyways.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
I know normal people won't, but, it's like getting something at a sale price, and then eventually, the sale ends and you pay full price again. It's time to pay full price.

If people can't understand that, they're really beyond help anyways.
What I meant to say is that the economy won't care if the tax rates were temporary. This will be a tax hike for all intents and purposes.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,361
2,567
136
You know, I'm OK with the BTC expiring: They were temporary as you post, so it is right they should expire as they were planned to. I don't view it as 'raising taxes' but more like 'they're going back closer to where they should be'.

That being said, we simply do not have a revenue problem in this country. When one looks at what is collected by the Fed, then State, then county/local, revenue is not the problem. Spending is.

Until Congress can stick to realistic budgets and live within them, adjusting as revenues go down (as happened during the .com crash, 9/11, etc.), it is pointless to talk about raising taxes, on anyone, until Congress has first dealt with its crack problem...that is, its never ending spending problem.

When Congress and the Executive have proved over a couple of years that they have truly learned to live within their present revenue means, and, that's current spending with current revenue, not insanity never to happen 10 year projection BS numbers, then I'll be more than happy to sign up for a tax increase solely to be used to pay down the national/state debt.

Any other excus, er, reason = The largest middle finger Internet graphic ever.

Chuck

The problem with you theory is that is starts with that we are getting enough revenue to sustain the benefits we have promised. This graph clearly states as a % of GDP we are clearly not getting enough revenue at the Federal level to sustain what we are spending. We need to track closer to 20% of GDP in revenue and spending needs to lower down to 20%. However it isn't so much Congress is on crack it us that are on the crack. We keep electing "leaders" that will keeping feeding us the habit. We keep expecting a $1.50 in benefits while only playing a $1 in taxes. The big 4 of the Federal Government in spending are Defense, Social Security, MediCare and MediCaid. The bottom graph clearly shows the runaway dangers of entitlement spending in this country. Here is a good budget simulator. Go ahead and try to balance the budget by cuts alone. Let us know what you come up with. http://crfb.org/stabilizethedebt/

Revenue_and_Expense_to_GDP_Chart_1993_-_2008.png


GAO_Slide.png
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,683
33,554
136
My expectation is that Congress and the President will run the boat right off the fiscal cliff. The first two weeks of January will be filled with faux hysteria while the two dominant parties try to figure out whom gets hurt more. Around the end of the second week or maybe as late as the third week we'll see an "emergency compromise" restoring some of the spending and some of the lower tax rates. Later in the year we'll see more spending and more tax rates quietly restored. We'll know which lobbies carry the most weight by the order in which interest groups are appeased. We'll also, without even a whimper, see the remaining out-year spending cuts mandated by the 2011 agreement removed from law. Obama will ultimately get a modest rate hike on top incomes and the Reps will get sufficient loopholes to render the new rate meaningless.

Meanwhile, the payroll tax for SS will return to 6.25% on January 1st with no complaint by any party in power.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
The problem with you theory is that is starts with that we are getting enough revenue to sustain the benefits we have promised. This graph clearly states as a % of GDP we are clearly not getting enough revenue at the Federal level to sustain what we are spending. We need to track closer to 20% of GDP in revenue and spending needs to lower down to 20%. However it isn't so much Congress is on crack it us that are on the crack. We keep electing "leaders" that will keeping feeding us the habit. We keep expecting a $1.50 in benefits while only playing a $1 in taxes. The big 4 of the Federal Government in spending are Defense, Social Security, MediCare and MediCaid. The bottom graph clearly shows the runaway dangers of entitlement spending in this country. Here is a good budget simulator. Go ahead and try to balance the budget by cuts alone. Let us know what you come up with. http://crfb.org/stabilizethedebt/]

Congress are supposed to be 'the adults in the room' and not be promising, and worse, delivering, more than what can be afforded. Afforded in this case is, what your revenues are, not what GDP is. I agree with what you've posted, I'm just saying, other that the BTC expiring, one would have to be completely batshit insane to agree to any tax hikes until Congress shows it can truly make the country live within its means.

I have no illusions though: I totally understand, to the delight of Proggies/Libs jizzing in their pants, that the American Voter is hooked surely on the crack that is entitlement spending, and will only demand more. Since everyone hates rich people, they are natually have been gone after first, so the 'means' can be inflated with rich tax dollars to a new 'means', hence Congress can pump its chest and proclaim, 'An lo, we balanced the budget (at the 10 year mark, something that will never be hit but hey, the AV memory is short so who cares!), so yo, gives us mo bucks'.

Truly: Laissez les bons temps rouler!

Chuck
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,361
2,567
136
Congress are supposed to be 'the adults in the room' and not be promising, and worse, delivering, more than what can be afforded. Afforded in this case is, what your revenues are, not what GDP is. I agree with what you've posted, I'm just saying, other that the BTC expiring, one would have to be completely batshit insane to agree to any tax hikes until Congress shows it can truly make the country live within its means.

I have no illusions though: I totally understand, to the delight of Proggies/Libs jizzing in their pants, that the American Voter is hooked surely on the crack that is entitlement spending, and will only demand more. Since everyone hates rich people, they are natually have been gone after first, so the 'means' can be inflated with rich tax dollars to a new 'means', hence Congress can pump its chest and proclaim, 'An lo, we balanced the budget (at the 10 year mark, something that will never be hit but hey, the AV memory is short so who cares!), so yo, gives us mo bucks'.

Truly: Laissez les bons temps rouler!

Chuck

Yeah but if the adults in Congress stand-up do the electorate acknowledge that they are correct? Not really somebody else will come along and they will get voted out of office. I mean it is hilarious when I see older Tea Party people bemoaning government spending but are happy to use Government Health Care (MediCare) and collect Social Security. My Dad was bitching to me about ObamaCare and government healthcare a year ago. I then pointed out to him, hey Dad didn't you just recently turn 65 and you are on Government Health Care now, he got real quiet and then told me that MediCare was different. Who in Congress was going to stand-up when MediCare part D was passed which increased MediCare spending? The same people complaining about ObamaCare where kind of quiet when Bush and Congress where passing MediCare part D. The American public is addicted to crack(entitlements) and we don't want to hear the truth. The Republicans keep acting like everyone can have their tax cuts and keep their benefits. The Democrats keep acting like everyone can keep all their benefits and we can pay for all this by taxing the rich. Even conservatives I talk to have no idea the effect that it would have to try to keep all the current tax cuts and balance the budget through cuts alone. It gets real ugly, so ugly that no politician would actually come out and say what cuts would actually look like.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,972
140
106
and let's go over the fiscal cliff too. Let the full fraud and bankruptcy of the obama economy become everyone's reality.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Yep, understand completely. I played with that link btw, got it down to 56%. Freely admit though, that the States would then need to start coming up with the money for things instead of the Fed; burden would be shifted. At least then, people would eventually have to directly deal with the problem, given the States cannot print money (yet, although I'm sure they're working on how to get around that obstacle). Once peoples actual State, county, and local started hammering them, then it'd go from something so far removed from them its not even a glimmer of thought while they're buying their Pepsi and Cheetos on their Links card, to, Holy F, maybe the way we're doing things needs to change. My fear, which I know will be fully realized eventually here in the US, is that when that time finally comes where even the Fed Pols can't mask the BS anymore, it will be decades too late. There'll be truly untenable choices, or simply, just no choices at all.

In the meantime though, we can tax the evil rich to bump getting that "free" fix out a little more...

Chuck
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Let the cuts expire. It ultimately won't change our economic situation in any significant fashion but at least it will be one less thing for people to bitch about.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,361
2,567
136
Yep, understand completely. I played with that link btw, got it down to 56%. Freely admit though, that the States would then need to start coming up with the money for things instead of the Fed; burden would be shifted. At least then, people would eventually have to directly deal with the problem, given the States cannot print money (yet, although I'm sure they're working on how to get around that obstacle). Once peoples actual State, county, and local started hammering them, then it'd go from something so far removed from them its not even a glimmer of thought while they're buying their Pepsi and Cheetos on their Links card, to, Holy F, maybe the way we're doing things needs to change. My fear, which I know will be fully realized eventually here in the US, is that when that time finally comes where even the Fed Pols can't mask the BS anymore, it will be decades too late. There'll be truly untenable choices, or simply, just no choices at all.

In the meantime though, we can tax the evil rich to bump getting that "free" fix out a little more...

Chuck

What did you have to cut to get it down to 56%?
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
I tried to save it as a PDF, but Adobe will not let me open it. Tried e-mailing it to myself, it won't just take an e-mail address, it wants a client installed. I saved a screenshoot, but it would not itemize, just had the major categories.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
As a conservative, I also dont have a problem with the BTC's expiring. The only nagging issue for me is those who are saying we need it to help reduce the debt and/or deficit. This is akin to a family who gets used to living on a certain income, and then the breadwinner gets a raise. Instead of using that additional income, no matter how small, to reduce their personal debt or put into savings, it gets "absorbed" into their budget. Im afraid thats what will happen here.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
There is something wrong with this chart. As the debt rises we have to pay more on interest. However as the USA Debt increases it is a good possibility that the bond rating will suffer and that will increase the amount of of interest we pay on the debt. This assumes everything will be cheerful. However, if we have a few bad years in a row and even more businesses fold, then the revenue will also fall because supply of workers will increase. Unions can not expect to keep their current wages if things get much worse. Unions are bad for our economy because they keep wages artificially high and further increase the chance of a failing economy. Entire retirement systems will fail and pension money could disappear. In fact the ability to pay many of the pensions people receive depends on a good economy.

If we just quit importing so many goods we could control our economy better. For instance if we cut back on importing automobiles we could put a lot more Americans to work.
 
Last edited:

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
http://thecenterholds.com/2012/11/20/time-for-the-sun-to-set-on-the-bush-tax-cuts/

Ever since the election ended, most of the buzz around Washington — and the rest of the country — has been focused on the impending “fiscal cliff”. This overly-dramatic phrase refers to a set of spending reductions and tax increases that are due to take effect at the start of 2013. Both Republicans and Democrats are concerned about the impact these may have on a fragile, slowly-recovering economy, even though many of them are responsible for these events being about to occur, and their timing as well. And, of course, the two sides differ on what should be done to avoid the “crisis”.

I guess I have to start by observing that members of Congress, and the president, have spent years claiming that debts and deficits are a big problem, while running up huge debts and deficits, and now that we finally face the possibility of the deficit being significantly reduced, nobody wants to do it. No big surprise there.

Similarly, much of the “fiscal cliff” results from automatic spending cuts due to the Budget Control Act of 2011, cuts that are only going to take place because the people oh-so-worried about the “cliff” couldn’t or wouldn’t negotiate anything that works better.

But what bothers me the most about this entire affair is that it is being used to rationalize further extending the so-called “Bush Tax Cuts”, reductions in tax rates and other changes that were instituted in 2001 and 2003. These were implemented using the budget reconciliation process, which allows the normal possibility of a filibuster to be bypassed.

The intention of reconciliation was to allow for speedy passage of federal budget bills — and specifically, to ensure that the budget stayed balanced — but it didn’t take long before some senators realized they could use it to try to push through bills that actually increased the budget deficit. To counter this, in 1985 the Byrd Rule was implemented (after former senator Robert Byrd), which among other provisions, prevents reconciliation from being used on any bill that increases the budget deficit beyond the “reconciliation period”, which is generally considered to be ten years. To avoid being thwarted by this rule, the Republican-controlled senate put a sunset provision on the Bush tax cuts so they would expire after ten years. This is why the tax cuts are temporary, rather than permanent. (These games were necessary because Democrats would likely have filibustered the tax cuts otherwise.)

At the time, the expiration of these tax cuts was actually used by Republicans to deflect criticism from Democrats that the cuts were a bad idea that would balloon the budget deficit. The claim was made that they were only temporary and would expire, so the complaints were overwrought.

Of course, we all know what really happens to “temporary” changes like tax cuts with sunset provisions — once people get used to them, they consider the “temporary” situation the status quo. It is analogous to companies that give a Christmas bonus to all of their employees year after year. At first, the people receiving these bonuses are grateful, but over time, they start to rely on these extra checks, and even expect them. If the bonuses stop coming, they don’t view this as losing something they never had a right to. On the contrary, they resentfully see it as a loss of an entitlement, even considering it a “pay cut”.

Naturally, this is happening with the Bush tax cuts as well, exacerbated by the addition of politics to the mix. Many people no longer view the expiration of the Bush tax cuts as something that should happen because of a designed-in sunset provision. Rather, they look at the Bush tax cuts as the “new normal”, consider any attempt to not extend them as improper or even unpatriotic. On talk radio, I have even heard pundits refer to the expiration of these cuts as a “tax increase” — a phrase that puts the sunset provision squarely on its ear in the same manner as people losing Christmas bonuses talking about “pay cuts”.

In 2010, President Obama agreed to allow the extension of the Bush tax cuts for all income brackets by two years. At the time, many on the left viewed this as a capitulation, but political analysts saw the shrewdness of the move: by making the expiration now occur shortly after the 2012 elections, the president ensured that he’d be in the driver’s seat regardless of the outcome. Had he lost, he’d have been a lame duck with no reason to extend the cuts further; and now that he’s won, he can use the pending expiration of the cuts as a bargaining chip. But while I can see the reasoning behind including the tax cuts in the larger negotiation over the “fiscal cliff” with Congress, I think an argument can be made that these tax cuts should be allowed to expire regardless.

From a political strategy standpoint, I think it makes sense for President Obama to use the GOP’s efforts to invert the concept of a sunset provision against them, in his effort to extend the lower rates only for the lower and middle classes. Right now, he’s being accused of wanting to “raise taxes on the rich”. If he simply allows the Bush-era cuts to expire, some folks will gripe about this as a “tax increase”, but that can be negated fairly quickly by proposing a new tax cut bill for those earning under whatever figure the politicians agree upon. Republicans wanting to block this will put themselves in the uncomfortable position of arguing against a middle-class tax cut.

But from a simple ethical point of view, I’d like to see the Bush tax cuts gone simply because of how they were put into place. Budget reconciliation was not supposed to be used to ram through massive partisan tax cuts that increase the budget deficit. The Byrd Rule is already pretty gutless if it allowed these two tax cut bills to go through, but the point of that rule is that bills that increase the deficit at least expire, and that’s exactly what should happen here.

Finally, I think it is important that tax rates go up both to help reduce the budget deficit, and to drive home the point that tax increases are not an instant death knell to the economy. In addition to calling the expiration of the Bush tax cuts a “tax increase”, members of Grover Norquist’s anti-tax cult seem to have conveniently forgotten that the economy did pretty well under the tax rates that existed during the Clinton presidency. Allowing a return to those rates may help break the religious fever surrounding taxes that is currently dominating the Republican Party.

We all want to see the bush tax cuts gone from the wealthy . This isn't 1990. This is after the pigs were set free. Those who destroy what others built . Obama said you didn't build that . Fine neither did you ass wipe. So why do you want what others have losers.
They can take ever dime from the rich it won't fix this economy because all the rich in this country can't cover the national debt . After the rich have no money were you going to get it . Gooberment handout . Do us all a favor just freaken die.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
The only people calling for tax increases are those who live off the gooberment tit. If rich have a tax rise so should the middle and the poor . and huge entitlements have to be cut . 50% of this country will fight befor we become a socialist nation. Me I will just cross into canada
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
That being said, we simply do not have a revenue problem in this country. When one looks at what is collected by the Fed, then State, then county/local, revenue is not the problem. Spending is.

Exactly. So some of the tax cuts expire... and the IRS gets an additional $1 trillion over ten years (and that is $1 trillion pulled from the economy).. we will still end up with $9 trillion in new debt. Federal pensions, medicare, defense, SS, obamaphones... it is all going to have to be cut.