Time for Democrats to ditch gun control.

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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,037
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We don’t have a gun problem, we have a society that breeds whacked out mass killers. Let’s work on that.
I think the gun problem is way easier to solve.
I'd like to see you run a political campaign on that promise: I'll spend hundreds of millions of tax dollars to unsuccessfully find/prevent all 5-10 of those unknown possible mass killers out there in US society.

I also wonder if guns themselves create the mass killer mentality in part. I mean cars create a mentality of speed racers (NY doesn't really have drag racing or have a car culture, southern cities which have big car cultures do). Perhaps part of the gun culture (where you spend days shooting at cutouts of fake people) in and of itself fosters a desire to finally use them in a real situation.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
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We don’t have a gun problem, we have a society that breeds whacked out mass killers. Let’s work on that.
I like how the argument is often that gun control is impossible so instead we should cure mental illness.

Mass killings aren’t really the problem anyway, the real toll of our gun problem is the thousands and thousands of people who die because they owned a gun and an argument that would have otherwise resulted in a fistfight turns into a gunfight. You almost always walk away from a fistfight. A gunfight? Not so often.
 

renz20003

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2011
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I like how the argument is often that gun control is impossible so instead we should cure mental illness.

Mass killings aren’t really the problem anyway, the real toll of our gun problem is the thousands and thousands of people who die because they owned a gun and an argument that would have otherwise resulted in a fistfight turns into a gunfight. You almost always walk away from a fistfight. A gunfight? Not so often.

It’s not impossible it just simply will never happen. So yournext option should be mental health.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,701
3,727
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It could be that opposition is highly concentrated in strategic areas, although I would want to see data on that.

I think the best argument for dropping it is related but I don’t find it super convincing - mainly that gun rights people are single issue voters similar to the anti abortion folks. I am skeptical that many would change parties though in either case.

This is basically what I’m getting at. I’d also want to see some data, but as I hinted in an earlier post I suspect it’s at least a part of the dumb “nanny state” perception meme that many conservatives have of Democrats.

The country would obviously be better off if no one had any guns. The argument is that the cat is out of the bag and it’s far too ingrained in our culture at this point for that, at least at this point in time. It would be a whole lot of political capital for something of questionable utility. I know anecdotal arguments are weak, but most or all people I know support gun control, would support AWB if asked, but don’t really care either way and would vote Dem anyway.
 
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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
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It’s not impossible it just simply will never happen. So yournext option should be mental health.
You might as well be trying to build houses on jupiter.

And have you considered the possibility that gun cultures potentiates the likelihood that someone will become a mass killer? And that many incidents of gun violence don't involve chronic mental health issues but rather rash decisions and mistakes or involve drugs/crime? There is the aristotelian view point that if you commit crime you must by default be insane but i dont think thats where you're going right?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
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It’s not impossible it just simply will never happen. So yournext option should be mental health.
So again, you’re claiming gun control can’t be accomplished but curing mental illness can be?

This is...uhmmm...wishful thinking at best.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
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This is basically what I’m getting at. I’d also want to see some data, but as I hinted in an earlier post I suspect it’s at least a part of the dumb “nanny state” perception meme that many conservatives have of Democrats.

The country would obviously be better off if no one had any guns. The argument is that the cat is out of the bag and it’s far too ingrained in our culture at this point for that, at least at this point in time. It would be a whole lot of political capital for something of questionable utility. I know anecdotal arguments are weak, but most or all people I know support gun control, would support AWB if asked, but don’t really care either way and would vote Dem anyway.
I guess my thinking is if the democrats said they were pro life tomorrow what percentage of evangelicals would change party? In my experience the answer is very few.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
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We don’t have a gun problem, we have a society that breeds whacked out mass killers. Let’s work on that.
You know how you work on that? You start by convincing them that a gun is not the answer to any problem.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,701
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I guess my thinking is if the democrats said they were pro life tomorrow what percentage of evangelicals would change party? In my experience the answer is very few.

True, but it only needs to be a couple percent in critical swing states. Blue states wouldn’t change. Imagine getting some of the gun loving non-religious Texas voters.
 

renz20003

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2011
2,714
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So again, you’re claiming gun control can’t be accomplished but curing mental illness can be?

This is...uhmmm...wishful thinking at best.

My opinion is the public will never give up their guns, they will not tolerate that. But you could get the majority of the public to support teaching ethics, the value of life, adults leading by setting a positive example.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
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My opinion is the public will never give up their guns, they will not tolerate that. But you could get the majority of the public to support teaching ethics, the value of life, adults leading by setting a positive example.
Then they will shoot you if you disagree with what is their ethics, what life they value over others, or who and what is a positive example.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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My opinion is the public will never give up their guns, they will not tolerate that. But you could get the majority of the public to support teaching ethics, the value of life, adults leading by setting a positive example.
I don’t think most people who kill people with guns do so because they think murder is good.
 

zzyzxroad

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2017
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I would disagree that suicide is a bigger issue than other deaths from gun violence. I do agree that it gets less discussion. I'm not saying I think US suicide rates are great or that suicide doesn't matter (suicide is terrible), but to me I feel that in terms of a negative impact on society non-suicide gun violence has much greater costs and impacts because it has much greater externalities and social costs. We don't for example fund police or have incredible prison systems or legal systems to take care of people committing suicide at home.

I mean in NY if you shoot yourself in the leg, it'll cost 100 to 200K for the state to imprison you per year. In california, for death penalty cases for gun violence they say it costs more than a quarter billion dollars from the time the person is arrested to the time the person is finally executed for the state in terms of total costs. That's 250 million dollars spent by the State of Ca per person on death row, largely for gun violence. In fact, I kind of wonder if juries had to sign the price tag at the time of sentencing, they'd keep going for death penalties.

Anyway thats not even talking about the costs to victims.
No gun laws that will pass in my lifetime will have a drastic impact on homicide statistics. Gun regulation gets a ton more dialog than suicide and result in little change. Spending more time on suicided prevention and helping communities with a high violent crime rates address the root cause of that violence is a better use of our energy.
 
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Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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I guess my thinking is if the democrats said they were pro life tomorrow what percentage of evangelicals would change party? In my experience the answer is very few.

Democrats would have to show that they aren't pro-choice, but to do that, they would get massacred. Poor comparison.

I think the best argument for dropping it is related but I don’t find it super convincing - mainly that gun rights people are single issue voters similar to the anti abortion folks. I am skeptical that many would change parties though in either case.

That's weird.

“The public has supported the assault weapons ban, and they really support it when you remind them that we had it already and that these are weapons that the military uses,” said Celinda Lake, a Democratic pollster. “The intensity has always been on the anti-gun control side. Now the intensity is shifting onto the other side and the refrain out of Dayton — which is exactly the refrain the public has — is, ‘Do something.’”

For years, the ban was considered politically toxic for Democrats. After Mr. Clinton signed it into law, Democrats were trounced in the midterm elections. They lost control of the House, which they had held for 40 years. Among the losers was Tom Foley, who drew the ire of the National Rifle Association when he came out in favor of the ban and was the first sitting House speaker to lose an election since 1862.

The outcome rattled Democrats, and their fears of the N.R.A. only grew after Al Gore lost the presidential election to George W. Bush in 2000. Many Democrats, including Mr. Clinton, blamed the loss on Mr. Gore’s stance on gun control. Four years later,
the assault weapons ban expired.






 

SmCaudata

Senior member
Oct 8, 2006
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Gun control is largely popular, yes, but ultimately NRS and other 2a people are motivated to find other problems with the candidate to make them less popular to the masses. NRA was trying to paint Biden as some extreme communist in order to scare everyone. The gun rights lobby is small but loud. Give them less to complain about, and it may make things easier.
 

SmCaudata

Senior member
Oct 8, 2006
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I'd like to add, that any assault, menacing, or felony should mean immediate removal of weapons. In addition, selling weapons to someone that can't have them should carry a 5 year sentence for the clerk and immediate loss of license to sell for the business. Owning a weapon with a violent criminal history should carry a 5 year sentence as well.

The NRA keeps saying that good people with guns are fine, it's the bad ones that we need to worry about. Make them eat those words.
 
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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,037
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No gun laws that will pass in my lifetime will have a drastic impact on homicide statistics. Gun regulation gets a ton more dialog than suicide and result in little change. Spending more time on suicided prevention and helping communities with a high violent crime rates address the root cause of that violence is a better use of our energy.
Honestly I think you just start taxing gun makers. You say "hey we are pro gun! You can have all the guns you want. We just want gun makers to pay their fair share for education and roads and healthcare". Then you tax gunmakers to death slowly and have them pass the costs onto the consumer. You just do it and don't talk about it.
 

SmCaudata

Senior member
Oct 8, 2006
969
1,532
136
Honestly I think you just start taxing gun makers. You say "hey we are pro gun! You can have all the guns you want. We just want gun makers to pay their fair share for education and roads and healthcare". Then you tax gunmakers to death slowly and have them pass the costs onto the consumer. You just do it and don't talk about it.
I've thought about that too. Make gun taxes pay for all public health costs related to guns. Should do the same for cigarettes.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,198
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Biden's plan on the website largely mimics MA laws, pretty much totes coo with me. Doubt it would all be ok with R's tho
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
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We don't need to drop policies just because they piss off the republican base. Those people will hate us no matter what.

We only need to drop them when they alienate swing voters. Like "defunding the police."
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,538
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We only need to drop them when they alienate swing voters. Like "defunding the police."

Huh? Dropping AWB should be good for rural areas and swing states. Democrats can't effectively address it anyway, so what's really lost? But yeah, "defunding the police" is not good messaging at all.


But in 1994, the most immediate consequence of the crime bill was a backlash against the assault weapons ban among gun advocates.
[...]

Gore surely paid a price for his stances on coal and other issues as well, but much of the blame for his narrow Electoral College loss fell on voters' response to his positions on guns.
In 2004, when the Republican Congress refused to renew the assault weapons ban, the Democrats' presidential nominee was Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, who sought to style himself as a hunter and gun owner but nonetheless supported the ban and its renewal.
The Electoral College that year looked a lot like 2000, and Kerry could have won had he carried Ohio. But in that state, as elsewhere, a poor showing in rural counties doomed the Democratic nominee.
 
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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
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If you guys want to join a well regulated militia that routinely squares off against fascism, I can direct you to your nearest recruiting office.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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With a Republican SCOTUS threatening Roe, it's not likely to be a deciding issue for them. But for a lot of voters on the other side of the issue, it is.

I disagree, as I think the reason women are concerned about guns is because of the same behavior pushing to overturn Roe. "Do as we say or else." I also disagree. Giving up pushing for gun control won't win over Republicans.

Most of all I think you're being completely obtuse. The gun rights advocates cannot help constantly bringing up violent rhetoric. That has done more to expose the true feelings of Republicans than perhaps any other thing. Trying to mitigate that by giving up on the issue will be doubly hurtful, as it will show Republicans that they can get you to concede on serious issues if they just threaten you enough (which itself is mortally dangerous to democracy), and it will make Republicans seem more moderate again, which will help them because the full of shit dumbfuck "fiscal conservatives" and others that have supported Republicans for bullshit reasons in spite of them going "yeah I hate everything else about them but..." will again seem not like they're completely full of shit (which they are and have been for decades).

I see few Democrats that are extremist on guns, and I think that has been actually playing well with Americans (as evidenced with the overwhelming support for more gun control). By showing a tempered rational approach, it shows Democrats are not making knee jerk reactions (which Republicans always howl they are, even though that simply is not true - just the same old fucking bullshit which if you are even remotely objective is very apparent who is having the freakout knee jerk reactions - i.e. "we must censor video games/music/movies!" and other horseshit by Republicans).
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,280
5,720
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Gun control is largely popular, yes, but ultimately NRS and other 2a people are motivated to find other problems with the candidate to make them less popular to the masses. NRA was trying to paint Biden as some extreme communist in order to scare everyone. The gun rights lobby is small but loud. Give them less to complain about, and it may make things easier.

Nah, just use their loudness against them. Highlight their constant absurd bullshit. Which actually people have been and its been hurting the NRA a lot. I don't know of anyone that isn't a gun nut that defends the NRA now. And I've had people that tried until I just showed single clips of people in the NRA saying insane crazy shit - as official comment by NRA executive - and they just go silent. Sometimes they'll try to claim its taken out of context until I show longer version that makes it clear, no it wasn't, and makes it even more blatantly insane, and that they're just completely fucked in the head.

Its like the dipshits that tried to defend Turmp at first but then shut up when he'd double down and make it clear that whatever way they were trying to bullshit rationalize or "clarify" what he said was absolutely not right and that he meant it in the worst way.
 
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