time for a new video card...nVidia or ATI?

[Sunny129]

i know a million people ask this question here in the forums when looking to upgrade their video card, so bare with me. ok, i don't need the absolute best video card on the market (GF4 Ti4600 and such), but at the same time i don't want anything less than above average when it comes to performance (GF4 MX series and the like). like most everyone else, i want good performance without having to spend over $300. infact, i would like to spend no more than $200 ($250 at the most if i aboslutely have to). ok, now here are the things i know (or at least think i do anyways...correct me if i'm wrong):

1) why get a GF4 MX when i can get a GF3 Ti that performs as good if not better, and for less $?
2) why not look into ATI since they have become just as competitive as nVidia in the GPU market?
3) why not get an ATI Radeon 8500 series and save anywhere from $20 - $50 instead of buying a GF4 Ti4400?
4) why not get an ATI Radeon 8500 series either for the same price as a GF4 Ti4200 or for as much as $60 less?

and now for the real questions:

1) i know about the existance of a Radeon 9000 Pro that competes w/ nVidia's GF4 MX. would it be wiser to go with a Radeon 8500 series over the 9000 Pro, just as some people would argue that the performance of a top-of-the-line GF3 will outperform a GF4 MX?
2) what are the exact differences between the Radeon 8500 , the 8500 LE, the PowerColor Radeon 8500 LE, and the AIW Radeon 8500 DV?
3) what are the exact differences between nVidia's GF4 Ti4200, 4400, and 4600 (not that the 4600 is an option for me, but i figured i'd ask since i am considering either the 4200 or the 4400)?

*by the way, i don't need any super special features that boost the price by $50 such as dual DVI support, or VIVO support. i'm won't need anything special for video capture and such. i dont need a card w/ LCD (flat panel) out. TV out would be nice...really nice in fact, but not if its going to bring the price above $250. i'm strictly in the market for a new card b/c i'm a gamer. i have a DVD-ROM, but i never use it since i have a DVD player and a TV in the same room. 2D is somewhat important, but i won't have any problems w/ that if i go with an ATI, and i can't imagine being disappointed w/ nVidia's 2D if i get a GF4 Ti. so that just gives everyone an idea of what i'm looking for in a video card...

i've been reading a review on the Radeon 9000 series and comparing its performance to the 8500 series, and also to the GF4 Ti4200 and 4400. it seems as though the 9000 series is to ATI what the GF4 MX series is to nVidia. needless to say, i'm focuing more on the Radeon 8500 series and the GF4 Ti4200 and 4400. i think that's all the questions i have for now...at least thats all i can think of at the moment. but i would really appreciate advice from anyone who knows their videos cards, or who just wants to share their experience with a card that i might be interested in. thanks...eric

 

[Lonyo]

I got a nice little Geforce 4 Ti 4400, and I like it, and it's got a pretty Creative fan on it.

 

[max105]

You probably don't have to worry about the 9000 vs 8500 since Tom's did a review showing that the 8500 beat out the 9000 in almost every test (although not by much in some cases).

In the end, I think it depends how much gaming or video features you're looking for. If you're into gaming, I'd vote for the 4200. If you're into the multimedia features then an 8500 would probably be good. I probably won't pick a 4400 over a 4200 unless the price difference ain't much. Otherwise you can just overclock the 4200 and even better performance.

 

[Sunny129]

i was kinda under the impression that ATI is geared more toward multimedia applications, even though ATI and nVidia are direct competitors as far as the best performance (nonprofessional) video card goes. i would still like to know the differences between the many cards included in the 8500 series...

 

[Ranger8P]

I would say this.

If you're willing to spend 300 or so, hold out for the new radeons and such. but you're not willing to spend that.

At the high end of your range, for $200 get a TI4400. For about $150 get a TI4200. But go with the 128MB. Like, you can get refurbs for under $150 and new ones for a litle over $150.

Most Geforce4's have the same performance, so go with the lowest price.

Right now, the best bang for your buck is the Radeon 8500LE 128MB. You can find the retail version for around 110 including shipping online. Go with the retail version, since it has the best chance at getting 3.3ns ram for overclocking. As for the differences.

The radeon 8500 is clocked at default to 275/275 where the le's are clocked at 250/250. However, many ATI Radeon 8500le's come with 3.3 ns ram which should be able to reach 300. With lukc you should be able to get the core to reach 275 too, so it'll be he same as a regular 8500 but about 40 bucks less. The 8500le doesn't have dvi, which is one reason why it's cheaper. But it does have a tv out in case you want to hook to a monitor and television.

As for performance. A ti4400 should be able to be oveclocked to 4600 performance or near it, depending on luck with overclocking.

The ti4200 should be able to reach a 4400 with overclocking, again, depending on luck.

An overclocked radeon le8500 should reach 4200 perfromance, especially with the new catalyst drivers.

And if you'll be doing more than gaming, the 8500le has better 2d/dvd performance. But to be honest, I don' think that nvidia has that bad dvd/2d anymore. they use to get a bum rap for that, but they're a lot better.

 

[Rand]

1) why get a GF4 MX when i can get a GF3 Ti that performs as good if not better, and for less $?

DVD playback, and the dual integrated TMDS transmitters are the only real advantages of the GF4 MX over then GF3 Ti.

2) why not look into ATI since they have become just as competitive as nVidia in the GPU market?

Unless you have a strong preferance for any one company I see absolutely no reason why you shouldnt consider ATi as a potential possibility.

3) why not get an ATI Radeon 8500 series and save anywhere from $20 - $50 instead of buying a GF4 Ti4400?

If you don't need the extra performance, then by all means look towards the R8500.

4) why not get an ATI Radeon 8500 series either for the same price as a GF4 Ti4200 or for as much as $60 less?

The primary and only significant advantage of the GF4 would be 3D performance, besides that the R8500 can compete extremely well.

1) i know about the existance of a Radeon 9000 Pro that competes w/ nVidia's GF4 MX. would it be wiser to go with a Radeon 8500 series over the 9000 Pro, just as some people would argue that the performance of a top-of-the-line GF3 will outperform a GF4 MX?

Unless you want Fullstream, I'd definitely go with the 8500 over the 9000. The 9000 is nowhere near as cut down as GF4 MX is though.

2) what are the exact differences between the Radeon 8500 , the 8500 LE, the PowerColor Radeon 8500 LE, and the AIW Radeon 8500 DV?

The Retail R8500 has the advantage of higher clcokspeeds (275/275 vs. 250/250) and they have DVI-output which the 8500LE lacks.
The PowerColor 8500LE is clocked at 250/250 as is ATi's 8500LE. The 8500DV is clocked at 230/190, but has all the All in Wonder features.

3) what are the exact differences between nVidia's GF4 Ti4200, 4400, and 4600 (not that the 4600 is an option for me, but i figured i'd ask since i am considering either the 4200 or the 4400)?

For the end user the only differences are clcokspeed and DRAM.


A brief comparison of the GF4-R8500

TV-Out/ VIVO capabilities- ATi.
Dual Display- Pretty much even.
3D performance: Ti4200 is faster, though with the latest drivers the R8500 is reasonably close.
2D Visual quality- Generally ATi, though some vendors are better/worse then others.
3D feature set- Tie... GF4 is better in some respects, R8500 is better in others. I'd give the R8500 a slight edge but neither had enough of an advantage to make any significant difference.
DVD playback-ATi.
FSAA visual quality- ATi.
FSAA performance- nVidia.
Anisotropic filtering visual quality- nVidia.
Anisotropic filtering performance- ATi.
nVidia has somewhat better driver support also, but the R8500 drivers are pretty mature at this point.
Price: R8500 is cheaper.
Overclocking: Both can usually overclock pretty well, but I'd give the Ti4200 the advantage.
Longevity: Ti4200 has the advantage here mostly due to performance advantages. UT2003 could be used as an example of the Ti4200's larger benefit in future games, though given that UT2003 is apparently specifically optimized for nVidia boards it may be something of an excessive scenario.

It really comes down to what you need in a graphics card, for many 3D performance is the primary determinator and in that the Ti4200 is the obvious choice. For others the R8500 may gain preference as it's an admirably well rounded board.

In the end, neither card is likely to disappoint you. Their both quite impressive.

Given that you don't seem to concerned with multimedia features, or 2D quality I'd say the GF4 Ti4200 is probably better suited for you. ATi does offer a better TV-Out implementation and you said you were interested in that. Beyond that 3D performance seems your sole point of interest however.. and the GF4's got the advantage in that respect.

If you wanna save a bit of money though the 8500LE 64MB will offer quite good performance, and is very cheap. You can get a 64MB R8500LE clocked at 250/275 with 3.3ns DDR RAM for $87.00

 

[Sunny129]

ok, so i'm trying to narrow down my choices here...

if i go with ATI, it sounds like the best idea is the 8500LE (128MB) retail, and i can OC it to 8500 performance and save money at the same time. and it sounds like a have a fair chance of OCing to Ti4200 performance levels if i buy retail.

if i go with nVidia, i can get a Ti440 for $200 (of course i doubt it will have all the features of a $250 Ti4400). or i could save money and just get a Ti4200 with good features, and w/ luck OC it to Ti4400 performance levels.

so i'm trying to decide on one nVidia card and one ATI card, and then decide between one of the two. so i'll be back soon with a decision, but by all means, if anyone else has some helpful information in narrowing it down, keep posting. thanks...eric

 

[Sunny129]

first off, thanks for answering so many of my questions, but i have a few more, and want to know about some questions already ansered in a bit more detail...

1) what exactly is DVI output? is that dual monitor support or something?
2) Rand, you mentioned that the PowerColor Radeon 8500LE is clocked the same as the 8500LE, but what does the "PowerColor" mean? is that just another board maker like ASUS or VisionTek? or is it an ATI implementation of the 8500 series?
3) it seems the AIW cards certainly ins't the way to go if one is looking for performance b/c of the lower clock, but what exactly are the AIW features?
4) if i go with a Ti4200 or Ti4400, can i find a board maker who implements a TV out and its price? its not a big deal if you don't list a price also...i can look that up on my own...

EDIT, i just ran a search @ pricewatch.com and found a few Ti4400s w/ TV out. the cheapest one is $198.50 shipped. its an MSI (i know they make very good motherboards, but i don't know about their video cards...though i would trust them more than a no-name brand b/c MSI is a larger reputable company). it comes w/ TV out and DVI, and is bundled w/ 10 games (not that they could be all that good, but who knows...). it has 128MB memory, retail box, and a cool purple PCB . looks good so far...

 

[Rand]

1) what exactly is DVI output? is that dual monitor support or something?

DVI is a video connector on some LCD monitors, it's a purely digital signal offering superior quality.
If your using a typical CRT monitor it's useless for you.

you mentioned that the PowerColor Radeon 8500LE is clocked the same as the 8500LE, but what does the "PowerColor" mean? is that just another board maker like ASUS or VisionTek?

Correct, PowerColor is just one of the many third party graphics card manufacturers.

3) it seems the AIW cards certainly ins't the way to go if one is looking for performance b/c of the lower clock, but what exactly are the AIW features?

DVI-Output, Stereo TV Tuner, Audio Output via SPDIF, RF Remote Control, IEEE 1394 "FireWire" ports, S-video/Composite Input/Output, TV Output up to 1024x768, etc tec.
I'm not entirely sure of al the features, but it's quite an impressive array of multimedia capabilities. It also comes with ATi's Video Editing/Cappturing, Guide+ software etc etc.
ATi's spent quite a few years perfecting their multimedia software and hardware capabilities and it really shows. The software is extremely good, and the MultiMedia capabilities are unmatched... of course you pay quite a bit extra for all the capabilities.

ATi also has the AIW R8500 for those that don't want to sacrifice the performance loss taken with the AIW R8500DV. The AIW R8500 is clocked at 275/275.... but is loses the 2 IEEE 1394 FireWire ports of the 8500DV and it only has analog rather then analog/digital video capturing of the 8500DV.

4) if i go with a Ti4200 or Ti4400, can i find a board maker who implements a TV out and its price?

I know ChainTech's 64MB Ti4200 is available for around $140 with TV-Output.
Jaton and Daytona both look to have 128MB GF4 Ti4200's w/ TVOut available for around $155.

As you mentioned MSI's Ti4400 is priced at around $200 with TVOut.

MSI's graphics cards are decent, their an extremely large manufacturer but that's mostly due to price more-so then quality of manufacture. I'd rate them as roughly average, though their 2D quality tends to be a bit disappointing at times.
Still, I'd much rather an MSI board over what essentially amounts to a "no-name" board from most of the other comparatively cheap brands,

 

[Sunny129]

ok, so DVI does me no good at this point b/c i use a CRT monitor. though it would be good to have if i wanted to upgrade to an LCD, i dont see that happening any time soon since LCDs are still held back by resolution issues, visual artifacts such as streaking and ghosting, and outrageous PRICES!

so to narrow my ATI options down to one, i think i'll go with the ATI Radeon 8500LE 128MB retail...

in an attempt to keep the price under $200 after shipping, i think i'll choose a Ti4200 instead of a 4400. that way i have headroom for 128MB memory and some decent features. by the way, as far as video card memory goes, what minimal timings should i be looking for? for example, i'm looking at a GAINWARD/CARDEXPERT GF4 TI4200 128MB w/TV Out, 4ns, Golden Sample (Retail Box). its only $166.50, and as far as i remember, Gainward makes a quality video card. but what about the 4ns? i've seen crads that use 3ns memory chips, which certainly makes a difference, but is it a significant one when it comes to framerates and all the other things gamers look for in a card?
EDIT, i just went to the website selling this particular card, and it does not exist there. they only sell a 64MB version for roughly the same price quoted to me at pricewatch. i guess pricewatch was inaccurate this time...

anyways, as you can see i havent quite yet picked one nVidia based card yet, but i'm hoping to do that by the end of the day...

PS - could you name some other third party boards makers who make quality boards?

thanks...eric

 

[lifeguard1999]

Personally, here is what I would do.

Wait. Wait. Wait.

The ATI Radeon 9700 will be shipped from ATI on the 19th of August. Give it 2 weeks to show up in stores. Stores like Best Buy & CompUSA will have "sales" on them, meaning they will charge $399 and have you send in rebate coupons. What this will do for you is drive down the price of the current cards since you do not want to spend over $200. Heck, the 4600 may even drop to that price point.

IMO, the best price/performance cards right now are the 8500 series from ATI and the GeForce Ti 4200 series. I would give the edge to the 4200 series.

OEM 8500LE 64MB : $87
Retail 8500 64MB : $109
OEM 8500LE 128MB : $109
Gainward Ti 4200 64 MB: $133
GeForce4 Ti 4200 128 MB: $155

Since ATI is discontinuing the 8500 series for the 9000 series, prices on the 8500 will probably start to rise soon. Not because they are better than the 9000 series, but simply due to them being in short supply. Personally I would stay away from the 9000 series. The 8500 series performs better most of the time.

Or you could just buy my retail 8500 off me for $85 shipped when the 9700 comes out.

 

[Sunny129]

ok, so i have it narrowed down to these:

ATI: ATI Radeon 8500LE 128MB retail

nVidia: GF4 Ti4200 (though i am still undecided which 3rd party board maker provides good memory/feature set/package, and i do need help with finding a good brand name)

as far as waiting for the Radeon 9700 to hit the market, GF4 prices may go down enough for me to consider a Ti4400, but i still think i'll go with the Ti4200 just to save some money. in addition to that, the prices of the Radeon 8500 will rise, even if it is still cheaper than a Ti4200. i could be saving quite a bit of money if i were to go with a 8500 over a Ti4200, but that price difference is only going to get smaller as time goes by. anyways, i'm pretty confident in making a decision sooner rather than later, though waiting would certainly be the thing to do for a loyal nVidia consumer. i'm just not 100% sure whether i'll be going ATI or nVidia yet...

anyways, i just need to pick out a specific Ti4200 to compare to the retail ATI Radeon 8500LE 128MB...and remember, the Ti4200 also must be a 128MB card...


EDIT...ok, i've been given advice on what to expect from MSI as a video card maker, but what about some other card makers such as ASUS, ABit, LeadTek, VisionTek, Gainward/CardExpert, ChainTech, eVGA, Jaton, and Matrox? if anyone has a little something about at least one of the card makers, it would be helpful...in the mean time, i'm searching all these names for a Ti4200 128MB w/ TV out. i just want to know which is the best quality board...its not really about price b/c all Ti4200's i've seen thus far are sub-$200.

 

[Sunny129]

ok, here is what i've found so far:
all of the cards i found in my search are Ti4200 128MB cards. only a few come with only TV out in addition to the industry standard CRT out. most of them come w/ TV out and DVI out, and two or three come with a third feature such as VIVO, or capture. as i said in the beginning, i don't plan on getting an LCD any time soon, but in the event that the quality improves and the prices come down, it couldn't hurt to have a video card that is DVI-ready. same thing with the VIVO and capture...i don't use them now, let alone know specifically what each does, but i could very well make use of them in the near future. again, none of the cards i found are too expensive, so i'm willing to spend some extra bucks for features and a quality board. so here are my finds:

*by the way, all search results are retail boxed...i just like the idea of a warrantee, and better chances of OCing, even if i don't push the card much...

1) ABit Siluro GF4 Ti 4200 128MB AGP TV: TV and DVI out, but at $168.00 after shipping, i found cheaper ones with the same features. however, as i said above, when it comes down to quality, if a board w/ the same features as this one is $10-$20 less, but not known to be as reliable as ABit, or not of the same quality as ABit, then i'll spend the extra $.

2) ASUS V8420 (not Deluxe Version): again, TV and DVI out, $189.00 after shipping. more expensive than most others, but ASUS can do that being known for their stability and reliability. maybe the extra $ is worth it? i don't know...

3) Jaton 3DFORCE4/TI4200: TV out only. $156.00 after shipping. i know nothing about Jaton, nor have i ever heard anything about them. i know nothing of the quality, and i'm hoping someone here does and can inform me...

4) Leadtek A250LE-TD VIVO: TV out, DVI out, and VIVO. $199.95, and i don't know if shipping is free or not. most expensive one i found, but it has the most features so far. i'm also assuming Leadtek wouldn't be able to put such a high price on a product if it wasnt a quality one, but correct me if i'm wrong...

5) Gainward CARDEXPERT G4TI4200: TV out only. $165.50 after shipping. no options for video capture or digital input if i ever need it, but i'm sure i could find a Gainward Ti4200 that had those things. i have heard Gainward mentioned many times, and from what i gather, it is quite above average when it comes to quality and reliability...if anyone else has a different opinion, by all means voice it.

6) Chaintech A-GT20: TV and DVI out. $157.95 shipped. i know Chaintech is a popular motherboard manufacturer b/c of their low cost and decent quality, but i know nothing of their video cards...advice please, b/c this is a very good price for a middle-of-the-line card.

7) eVGA GeForce4 Ti 4200 128MB: TV out, DVI out, and VIVO. $165.00 shipped. excellent price considering the three features included. but i know nothing of the quality of eVGA, and have never really heard of them before...

8) Aopen Aeolus TI4200: TV out, DVI, and capture. $171.00 shipped. again a good price for the features offered, assuming Aopen makes a quality card...can anyone comment on the quality of Aopen video cards?

9) PowerColor GeForce4 Ti4200: TV and DVI out, $164.89 shipped. this is middle range as far as price goes for all the crads i found w/ TV and DVI out, but there are cheaper ones with the same two features, so again it boils down to quality. and i know nothing about PowerColor, so if anyone does, i would appreciate comments...

ok, well thats all of the brands i found, some big names, and some not. if there are any other brands worth looking into, please tell me.

so as you can see, its mostly an issue of quality and the fact that i only know a few things about only a few of the manufacturers. there are many manufacturers i don't know about, and am therefore unsure until someone can tell me a thing or two about the company, or their experiences with one of their products (preferably one of their video cards). so i'm stuck to a certain extent. any help would be appreciated...

thanks..eric

EDIT, on the ATI side of things, instead of going with the 8500LE, i think i'll just get the higher clocked 8500 for a few more $. even then i'm spending well under $200, and it gives me the oppotunity to upgrade to the LCD if i ever choose to do so...i'm trying to find the best price/quality combination right now, but whrerever i find it, i'm sure it will be ATI retail...i'll be back w/ results soon...

EDIT2: oh yeah, one more question. do any Radeon 8500LE's that support DVI out exist? i know Rand said that was one of of the differences between the 8500 and the 8500LE, but i'm running searches on the 8500LE @ pricewatch.com and seeing it advertised by quite a few vendors as having DVI out as well as TV out. i just wanted to know if its a "typo"...thanks

 

[Sunny129]

another question...
this is advertised as an 8500LE, but it has DVI out. everywhere on the page it says 8500LE, but if you look at the picture of the box it comes in, it just says 8500. take a look and tell me if its another typo...thanks

PowerColor Radeon 8500 or 8500LE @googlegear.com?

 

[Sunny129]

hey guys, help me out with the brand names here...i know the performance ultimately lies within the GPU itself, but the third party card maker can make quite the difference in quality and reliability, depending on things like following the reference board design and such...i just need to know who makes a great board, a good board, and a not-so-good board...even a few words can help. every bit of advice counts...

thanks...eric

 

[BFG10K]

For nVidia products stick to Leadtek or Gainward.
For ATi products insist on genuine ATi cards.

 

[Sunny129]

thanks for the advice...its been over 24 hours since someone has replied, and i have really been relying on this thread to help me in my decision. after all, you can't get a wider variety of viewpoints and opinions on video cards than at a hardware review forum . anyways, i was hoping to hear some good news about Gainward b/c i have since found a few more Ti4200's with more features than the one in the list i made a few posts above.

 

[Buk]

I've upgraded recently from a GF2-GTS-32mb to an ATI Radeon 8500-64mb (made by ATI) and am well pleased. 3DMark2001SE went from ~3800 to ~8800 (if you subscribe to benchmarks). If you watch the F/S board, you can find one for less than $100 shipped. Who knows where technology will be 6 months from now? I like my Radeon.....................