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tight bass.............fast bass............quick bass.................sigh

NightCrawler

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 2003
3,179
0
0
Some things to think about:

1. FS
The FS of the driver can be a big factor in the perception of fast bass. If the FS is high around 30 or 35 hz then the driver will yield better sounding bass in the area where most of the bass energy is located in music. Most PA systems I have designed always tend to roll bass off below 30 hertz. To get a higher FS the driver suspension is tighten up which will affect the sound of the bass you end up with.

2. Vented driver for a vented box

Sadly most drivers today are really intended for sealed boxes but do to marketing they will say they will work great in vented enclosures. The TS numbers don't lie though and the sound may not be the greatest. I prefer a driver actually be designed for the box I'm working with. A low Q driver for Vented box is still my preference.

3. 10 hertz

Do you really need 10 hertz, probably not, most music gets rolled off at 30 hertz or so and rock music usually doesn't go below that. A friend measured the bass energy in 2000 dvd's and found that they didn't get below 25 hertz and that most bass energy was in the 30 to 40 hertz area.

4. 18 inch vs 10 inch

The problem isn't the size of driver as much as what your forcing it to do. Getting an 18" driver to play 15 hertz is pretty easy but making it play 15 hertz and then 80 hertz is where the muddiness usually begins. If an 18" is made to do what it is good at which is play very low bass then it will do that very well, an 18" playing 15 to 30 hertz and then another driver taking over above 30 hertz is ideal. The FS is important here, forcing a 18" with a 35 hertz FS to play 15 hertz won't be very easy. Using an 18 inch with a 15 hertz FS is a lot more ideal.

5. My driver has a 35 mm xmax why isn't it loud ?

Excursion isn't everything, the size the box is a huge factor. A 18" in a 2 cubic foot box just isn't going to be that loud even if the driver has a huge excursion. Placed in a car might help but in the outside world the box size is very important. Take an 18" driver and put it into a 20 cubic foot box that it was designed for and the output will go up dramatically.



 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 9, 1999
50,425
6
81
Originally posted by: Shockwave
OMFG!!

i havent quite seen so much disinformation in one place since I read the Bible!! :Q
BWHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA

That is all.
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
27,075
1,249
126
Originally posted by: Shockwave
OMFG!!

i havent quite seen so much disinformation in one place since I read the Bible!! :Q
u mean jesus isnt black???
 

Viperoni

Lifer
Jan 4, 2000
11,085
1
71
For someone who seems to have an idea of T/S specs, this is sad :(
And he's also confusing perception with reality. (I probably just end up cutting and pasting from the previous thread anyhow).
 

NightCrawler

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 2003
3,179
0
0
Originally posted by: Viperoni
For someone who seems to have an idea of T/S specs, this is sad :(
And he's also confusing perception with reality. (I probably just end up cutting and pasting from the previous thread anyhow).
LOL...please enlighten me with your knowledge ?



 

Shockwave

Banned
Sep 16, 2000
9,059
0
0
Originally posted by: MustangSVT
Originally posted by: Shockwave
OMFG!!

i havent quite seen so much disinformation in one place since I read the Bible!! :Q
Please enlighten us.
Nope. No offense, but I'm SO TIRED of fighting with people who believe some of the myths in audio. And its not just here. I'm of the stand now that I'm just gonna happily agree with ANYTHING people say unless they SPECIFICALLY ask me. Also, I'm point you to this in another thread..

"Originally posted by: ShaneN

So far, the only person who actually is making any sense here is nourdmrolNMT1, keep up the informing of the uninformed ! If you don't want to listen to me or him, listen to Physics, it backs up everything he has said."

Apparently I dont know shyte either. Now THAt statement there pisses me off, because or resident nour doesnt quite knoe as much as he would have us think. But thats a point for another time. So, PM him and ask whats wrong with this thread. Cause, and read carefully...
I
AM
DONE
WITH
AUDIO
ON
ATOT
 

Mrburns2007

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2001
2,595
0
0
Originally posted by: NightCrawler
Some things to think about:

1. FS
The FS of the driver can be a big factor in the perception of fast bass. If the FS is high around 30 or 35 hz then the driver will yield better sounding bass in the area where most of the bass energy is located in music. Most PA systems I have designed always tend to roll bass off below 30 hertz. To get a higher FS the driver suspension is tighten up which will affect the sound of the bass you end up with.

True....for rock music a higher FS and a rolled off sub can have more snap but this is well known, most PA subs don't plunge below 30 hertz. Most of them have 30 to 40 hertz FS

2. Vented driver for a vented box

Sadly most drivers today are really intended for sealed boxes but do to marketing they will say they will work great in vented enclosures. The TS numbers don't lie though and the sound may not be the greatest. I prefer a driver actually be designed for the box I'm working with. A low Q driver for Vented box is still my preference.

Companies are to cheap to tweak a driver for a specfic purpose so they have one size fits all approach, a driver tweaked to work well in a large vented box is ideal if that is the box your building.

3. 10 hertz

Do you really need 10 hertz, probably not, most music gets rolled off at 30 hertz or so and rock music usually doesn't go below that. A friend measured the bass energy in 2000 dvd's and found that they didn't get below 25 hertz and that most bass energy was in the 30 to 40 hertz area.

I wouldn't doubt it since 99% of people have cheap subwoofers that will bottom out with loud 20 hertz bass, sound engineers will sharply rolloff the bass below say 25 hertz.

4. 18 inch vs 10 inch

The problem isn't the size of driver as much as what your forcing it to do. Getting an 18" driver to play 15 hertz is pretty easy but making it play 15 hertz and then 80 hertz is where the muddiness usually begins. If an 18" is made to do what it is good at which is play very low bass then it will do that very well, an 18" playing 15 to 30 hertz and then another driver taking over above 30 hertz is ideal. The FS is important here, forcing a 18" with a 35 hertz FS to play 15 hertz won't be very easy. Using an 18 inch with a 15 hertz FS is a lot more ideal.

How about a 5-way system where the 18" only plays the first octave. Then 12" or 15" could be used to play second and third octave . Then a midbass, midrange and then a tweeter to cover there regions. It can be done if you have the money. Of course keep in mind that super high end system are usually only three way setups.

5. My driver has a 35 mm xmax why isn't it loud ?

Excursion isn't everything, the size the box is a huge factor. A 18" in a 2 cubic foot box just isn't going to be that loud even if the driver has a huge excursion. Placed in a car might help but in the outside world the box size is very important. Take an 18" driver and put it into a 20 cubic foot box that it was designed for and the output will go up dramatically.

High Excursion drivers are also less efficient then lower excursion drivers. High Excursion drivers also need a good suspension and motor to control the wild piston movements. In the high end they might use Servo's to cancel out any unwanted movements. The Genesis One is awesome if you can afford it.... http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/GenLS/1.1.htm
 

nan0bug

Banned
Apr 22, 2003
3,142
0
0
Originally posted by: NightCrawler
Some things to think about:

4. 18 inch vs 10 inch

The problem isn't the size of driver as much as what your forcing it to do. Getting an 18" driver to play 15 hertz is pretty easy but making it play 15 hertz and then 80 hertz is where the muddiness usually begins. If an 18" is made to do what it is good at which is play very low bass then it will do that very well, an 18" playing 15 to 30 hertz and then another driver taking over above 30 hertz is ideal. The FS is important here, forcing a 18" with a 35 hertz FS to play 15 hertz won't be very easy. Using an 18 inch with a 15 hertz FS is a lot more ideal.
EXACTLY MY POINT. I don't know why people don't get it. Making a huge sub go from 20hz to 80-100hz and back again will not sound as good as making a 15" sub take the 40hz and below range while a smaller driver like a 10" or an 8" takes the upper end.

I don't know why people continue to argue this point. It has nothing to do with enclosures. It has nothing to do with how expensive the sub is. It has to do with the fact that smaller speakers reproduce higher frequency sounds better.
 

Shockwave

Banned
Sep 16, 2000
9,059
0
0
Originally posted by: nan0bug
Originally posted by: NightCrawler
Some things to think about:

4. 18 inch vs 10 inch

The problem isn't the size of driver as much as what your forcing it to do. Getting an 18" driver to play 15 hertz is pretty easy but making it play 15 hertz and then 80 hertz is where the muddiness usually begins. If an 18" is made to do what it is good at which is play very low bass then it will do that very well, an 18" playing 15 to 30 hertz and then another driver taking over above 30 hertz is ideal. The FS is important here, forcing a 18" with a 35 hertz FS to play 15 hertz won't be very easy. Using an 18 inch with a 15 hertz FS is a lot more ideal.
EXACTLY MY POINT. I don't know why people don't get it. Making a huge sub go from 20hz to 80-100hz and back again will not sound as good as making a 15" sub take the 40hz and below range while a smaller driver like a 10" or an 8" takes the upper end.

I don't know why people continue to argue this point. It has nothing to do with enclosures. It has nothing to do with how expensive the sub is. It has to do with the fact that smaller speakers reproduce higher frequency sounds better.

Did you know I'm making my own component set? Its quite fun selecting the drivers and designing the crossover, although i could use some good crossover design software. i may have to order the plans and then make it myself. Still, its amazingly fascinating!
 

Viperoni

Lifer
Jan 4, 2000
11,085
1
71
nan0bug,

I believe I have found your studio.

http://www.avatarstudios.net/rooms/studio_b.html

The subwoofer is a Bag End.... 18inches.

The best part is that the speakers, Urei 813 b's, are a coaxial 12inch woofer with a horn tweeter in the middle.

Proof of use of said studio by some big non-basshead music groups:
http://www.audioworld.com/stat/news/0302/07.avatar.studios.grammy.nominations.shtml



Now let's think about this one a little bit futher (I'm going to debunk you're whole "bigger is worse" arguement, yet again).

Your claim is that a large subwoofer cannot reproduce 100hz midbass stuff accurately.
But the studio uses speakers with 12inch woofers mating to coaxially mounted horn tweeters.
Let's assume the crossover point between the woofer and horn is disturbingly low at 500hz.

So if you're claiming that a large speaker can't reproduce 100hz properly, how can a STUDIO use a 12incher all the way up to 500hz?????



Incase it hasn't become obvious, I can throw your BS right back at you all day long, but the smell is starting to get to me. You, OTOH, seem quite content with it.
 

Viperoni

Lifer
Jan 4, 2000
11,085
1
71
Originally posted by: NightCrawler
Originally posted by: Viperoni
For someone who seems to have an idea of T/S specs, this is sad :(
And he's also confusing perception with reality. (I probably just end up cutting and pasting from the previous thread anyhow).
LOL...please enlighten me with your knowledge ?
#1:

FS. Let us take 2 subs in matching sealed boxes with all specs identical other than one has Fs = 15hz, the other with Fs = 35hz. The 35hz one will simple have a higher F3 while maintaining the same overall Qtc as the other sub.

You don't have to neccessarily tighten up the suspension, IN FACT, most pro audio drivers have quite "loose" suspension (just look at their Vas figures!) with very light cones (since they usually play high enough to mate with tweets). Pro Audio drivers typically rely on the low moving mass to keep the FS as high as they do (usually), but some do have quite stiff suspensions. That, and since you rarely go below 30hz in most music ANYHOW, a 30hz FS is plenty.

#2: There's nothing "wrong" with putting a high Qts driver in a vented box, you'll usually just end up with a large peak in bass response. Such a peak centered in the 70hz region will emphasis the midbass giving a "punchy" sounding bass.

#3: No, you don't really need 10hz at all. IIRC U571 on dips down to ~16hz. I agree with the most bass energy being focused around 30-40hz region statement.

#4: *yawn* see above. See statements regarding typical overpriced subwoofers and loudspeaker, and with bass perception. See statements regarding highly linear (and powerful) motors.

#5: Typically higher excursion drivers seem to have lower efficiency than regular drivers, one BIG exception being the Aura 18". 18mm Xmax with a ~96db/2.8v/meter sensitivity IIRC.
An 18incher won't neccessarily be unable to play in a 2cf sealed box. The RF Power HX2 15", for example, has a Qtc of around 0.8 in a 1.5cf sealed box IIRC. Not a particularily efficient sub, but it is designed for massive power handling, and has a lot of Xmax. It also has a fairly low Fs (22hz IIRC)... bet if that was 30hz, it'd be a lot more efficient.
 

Shockwave

Banned
Sep 16, 2000
9,059
0
0
Originally posted by: Viperoni
nan0bug,

I believe I have found your studio.

http://www.avatarstudios.net/rooms/studio_b.html

The subwoofer is a Bag End.... 18inches.

The best part is that the speakers, Urei 813 b's, are a coaxial 12inch woofer with a horn tweeter in the middle.

Proof of use of said studio by some big non-basshead music groups:
http://www.audioworld.com/stat/news/0302/07.avatar.studios.grammy.nominations.shtml



Now let's think about this one a little bit futher (I'm going to debunk you're whole "bigger is worse" arguement, yet again).

Your claim is that a large subwoofer cannot reproduce 100hz midbass stuff accurately.
But the studio uses speakers with 12inch woofers mating to coaxially mounted horn tweeters.
Let's assume the crossover point between the woofer and horn is disturbingly low at 500hz.

So if you're claiming that a large speaker can't reproduce 100hz properly, how can a STUDIO use a 12incher all the way up to 500hz?????



Incase it hasn't become obvious, I can throw your BS right back at you all day long, but the smell is starting to get to me. You, OTOH, seem quite content with it.
1) Nice horns. Ones I've been looking at a more suitable crossover point would be around 800 hertz
2) Thats a very, very serious case of ownage

 

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