Tibetans are taking wrong actions in SF

[tiejiba]

Tibetans are taking wrong actions.

I do agree that everyone has a right to demand freedom or whatever he or she wants. However, trying to take away or extinguish the Olympic torch is just violent and not smart.

What they should do is just protest along the torch route. The world will get the message they are trying to deliver and they will still get the focus of the media for the reasons we all know.

One key for their success is to clearly target their enemy. Their enemy is Chinese Communist Government, not Chinese people. Unfortunately, Tibetans mixed them together and made average Chinese people angry, tuning their requests for freedom into a racial war. This will hurt their requests for independence even after the Chinese Communist Regime collapse in the future.

The Chinese government benefits most from this protest. They have a lot of problems in China. Most Chinese citizens hate their government. Chinese government is having a hard time to find a good foundation for their ruling of the vast country. What Tibetan does just push the Chinese people who normally hate Chinese government to the side of the government.

As far as Chinese government is concerned, they may look bad in the world. But they do not care. They may not even care of the Olympics games. What they care is the way Chinese people look at them. All they care is continuing ruling China as a regime. They will do anything for that. This is why the Chinese government wanted the Olympics in the first place, to show Chinese people that the government has done a lot good thing to Chinese people and is representing their best interest. Now, because of the violent disturbance for the torches, the Chinese government is regarded as hero for protecting the Chinese national pride and people think the government is representing their best interest. For the Chinese government, the mission is well accomplished even before the start of the games.


This is just a sad outcome.

 

[maddogchen]

Yeah, the Tibetans should instead invade Beijing and force them to stop making cheap crap for Walmart or Target or Dell from their bloody cheap labor factory.

Anyone second that?

 

[Toasthead]

we should invade tibet for their oil

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Toasthead
we should invade tibet for their yaks

Fixed.

 

[Jetster]

Originally posted by: tiejiba
Tibetans are taking wrong actions.

I do agree that everyone has a right to demand freedom or whatever he or she wants. However, trying to take away or extinguish the Olympic torch is just violent and not smart.

What they should do is just protest along the torch route. The world will get the message they are trying to deliver and they will still get the focus of the media for the reasons we all know.

One key for their success is to clearly target their enemy. Their enemy is Chinese Communist Government, not Chinese people. Unfortunately, Tibetans mixed them together and made average Chinese people angry, tuning their requests for freedom into a racial war. This will hurt their requests for independence even after the Chinese Communist Regime collapse in the future.

The Chinese government benefits most from this protest. They have a lot of problems in China. Most Chinese citizens hate their government. Chinese government is having a hard time to find a good foundation for their ruling of the vast country. What Tibetan does just push the Chinese people who normally hate Chinese government to the side of the government.

As far as Chinese government is concerned, they may look bad in the world. But they do not care. They may not even care of the Olympics games. What they care is the way Chinese people look at them. All they care is continuing ruling China as a regime. They will do anything for that. This is why the Chinese government wanted the Olympics in the first place, to show Chinese people that the government has done a lot good thing to Chinese people and is representing their best interest. Now, because of the violent disturbance for the torches, the Chinese government is regarded as hero for protecting the Chinese national pride and people think the government is representing their best interest. For the Chinese government, the mission is well accomplished even before the start of the games.


This is just a sad outcome.

QFT, totally agree, the Chinese government was having lot of social unrest of Chinese people wanting more freedom and rights, and it's having a hard time to justify its right to stay in power. This event just give the communist party a new cause, it tells the people that outside forces hate them, western imperialisms are coming to divide and conquer them again, and they're the only one who can protect.
like some one said in an easier post, democracy can only be shown and spread internally, otherwise it'll become something twisted and ugly, which is all Chinese people seen in Paris and London now.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: tiejiba
Tibetans are taking wrong actions.

I do agree that everyone has a right to demand freedom or whatever he or she wants. However, trying to take away or extinguish the Olympic torch is just violent and not smart.

What they should do is just protest along the torch route. The world will get the message they are trying to deliver and they will still get the focus of the media for the reasons we all know.

One key for their success is to clearly target their enemy. Their enemy is Chinese Communist Government, not Chinese people. Unfortunately, Tibetans mixed them together and made average Chinese people angry, tuning their requests for freedom into a racial war. This will hurt their requests for independence even after the Chinese Communist Regime collapse in the future.

The Chinese government benefits most from this protest. They have a lot of problems in China. Most Chinese citizens hate their government. Chinese government is having a hard time to find a good foundation for their ruling of the vast country. What Tibetan does just push the Chinese people who normally hate Chinese government to the side of the government.

As far as Chinese government is concerned, they may look bad in the world. But they do not care. They may not even care of the Olympics games. What they care is the way Chinese people look at them. All they care is continuing ruling China as a regime. They will do anything for that. This is why the Chinese government wanted the Olympics in the first place, to show Chinese people that the government has done a lot good thing to Chinese people and is representing their best interest. Now, because of the violent disturbance for the torches, the Chinese government is regarded as hero for protecting the Chinese national pride and people think the government is representing their best interest. For the Chinese government, the mission is well accomplished even before the start of the games.


This is just a sad outcome.

i agree.

i agree Tibet should be freed. BUT how they are doing things now just makes me not care.

the torch has nothing to do with China. it is a symbol of the games and what they represent. to try to put out the flame is disrespectful to all nations that have sent athletes.

 

[bbdub333]

the torch has nothing to do with China. it is a symbol of the games and what they represent.

I think that since China sees the games more as a stamp of approval from the world than as an athletic event, the torch does indeed represent more than the games themselves. I think the whole point of protesters trying to snuff the flame is symbolic in a way as to prevent the flame from reaching China.

 

[heyheybooboo]

THE OLYMPIC CREED

"The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not to win but to take part, just as the most important thing in life is not the triumph but the struggle. The essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought well."

On a strictly unrelated side note: Air pollution levels in Beijing are five times higher than the World Health Organization's recommended safety levels.

On another strictly unrelated side note: The introduction of the Olympic Flag during the opening ceremony adds symbolism to the games. Traditionally, eight people carry in the flag. Five of these flagbearers represent the continents, while the other three stand for the Olympic ideals of sport, environment, and culture.

 

[yllus]

The U.S.S.R., East Germany, China and other nations that have depended on tyranny to maintain rule have always lusted after events like The Olympics because it does lend them a certain amount of credibility as a first-class nation. Fact is, they weren't (or in China's can't, aren't).

I'm not for violence, but I am quite happy to see a large amount of mostly peaceful demonstration taking place against these Games being awarded to China. Keep at it, boys and girls!

 

[Thump553]

I disagree. China, like so my tyrannical governments before it (Hilter's Germany, Tito's Yugoslavia, etc) are hosting these games specifically for a public relations showcase. In my view, any nonviolent action taken to disrupt and disprove that phony showcase is not only fair game, but is to be encouraged.

If people of Chinese descent or ordinary citizens of China think these actions are directed against them, they are wrong.

Tibet and its people have been nonviolently struggling against this invasion and power grab for half a century now. Can you really fault them for exploiting the best opportunity available in a long time to peacefully advance their cause? I certainly can't.

 

[EagleKeeper]

the torch has nothing to do with China. it is a symbol of the games and what they represent.

China seems to think otherwise - look at the censorship and spin they are putting on the issue.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Thump553
I disagree. China, like so my tyrannical governments before it (Hilter's Germany, Tito's Yugoslavia, etc) are hosting these games specifically for a public relations showcase. In my view, any nonviolent action taken to disrupt and disprove that phony showcase is not only fair game, but is to be encouraged.

If people of Chinese descent or ordinary citizens of China think these actions are directed against them, they are wrong.

Tibet and its people have been nonviolently struggling against this invasion and power grab for half a century now. Can you really fault them for exploiting the best opportunity available in a long time to peacefully advance their cause? I certainly can't.

What you don't understand is China has come a long way since 1989 Tiannamen square massacre. It may still be undemocratic, but as its economy improve and more Chinese are exposed to western culture, things are much improved. Just go visit any major city in china to see if you can compare China to Hilter's Germany or Tito's Yugoslavia.

I see both side of the arguments. I see a strong bias in the western media against china, and that lead to people protesting strongly with this Olympic crap. I also see how Chinese decision to not allow freedom of press doesn't help their cause. But it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. If the world want China to join the rank of democratic society, everyone need to keep working with the Chinese people, keep the exchange open and one day Chinese people will decide for themselves that democracy is good for them.

That is not a impassible scenario. Both South Korea and Taiwan were ruled by dictator 30~20 years ago. But now they are 100% democracy. And it doesn't require a freaking US invasion to accomplish that too.

And as China becomes democratic, I believe Tibet and Taiwan issue will be solved in a civilized manner. If you wanna force the issue now, only bad thing is gonna happen with this fvcked up communist leadership.

 

[lupi]

lol & /golfclap @ SF.

For all the changes made to what amounted to a very limited torch walk, should have just cancelled it.

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Thump553
I disagree. China, like so my tyrannical governments before it (Hilter's Germany, Tito's Yugoslavia, etc) are hosting these games specifically for a public relations showcase. In my view, any nonviolent action taken to disrupt and disprove that phony showcase is not only fair game, but is to be encouraged.

If people of Chinese descent or ordinary citizens of China think these actions are directed against them, they are wrong.

Tibet and its people have been nonviolently struggling against this invasion and power grab for half a century now. Can you really fault them for exploiting the best opportunity available in a long time to peacefully advance their cause? I certainly can't.

What you don't understand is China has come a long way since 1989 Tiannamen square massacre. It may still be undemocratic, but as its economy improve and more Chinese are exposed to western culture, things are much improved. Just go visit any major city in china to see if you can compare China to Hilter's Germany or Tito's Yugoslavia.

they have more luxury items but human rights, news, internet, everything is still tightly controlled by the government. Actually its worse off than before China was given the Olympics. All these China suckups like businesses and Barbara Boxer and the IOC who were looking to make money in China have been shown to be wrong time and time again on their calls that exposing China to the Olympics and western ideals will push China to be democratic have been proven terribly wrong. Instead its western businesses like Yahoo changing and conforming to Communist China's ways. But they don't care, they're terribly rich now.

I see both side of the arguments. I see a strong bias in the western media against china, and that lead to people protesting strongly with this Olympic crap. I also see how Chinese decision to not allow freedom of press doesn't help their cause. But it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. If the world want China to join the rank of democratic society, everyone need to keep working with the Chinese people, keep the exchange open and one day Chinese people will decide for themselves that democracy is good for them.

This is where I think I've stated how I disagreed with you before but I'll repeat it here again. I think as long as Chinese Communist leaders keep the Chinese population rich they won't care about democracy. Chinese care more about money than about human rights or freedoms. The only way the Chinese will decide to force the issue and change to democracy is if the Communist leaders screw up the economy so badly that it hurts all their pocketbooks.

Most of them probably don't even care about Tibetans. Having been exposed to Chinese culture and lived and worked briefly in China, I have seen some of the inherent racism of Han Chinese against the minority. Thats why they populate minority areas with Han Chinese to make them more Han. Example:

"They have no culture and they don't try to study and improve themselves," said a Chinese delivery driver who would only give his surname, Wang, because he said the government didn't want him to speak ill of the Uighurs. "Most businesses don't want to hire them. That's why they hire Han Chinese. Their religion, Islam, it's no good. It fills their heads with nonsense."

Text

That is not a impassible scenario. Both South Korea and Taiwan were ruled by dictator 30~20 years ago. But now they are 100% democracy. And it doesn't require a freaking US invasion to accomplish that too.

Dictators die. And both countries survival was dependent on the US. Without the US, there would be only one Korea, a Communist one. Without the US, there would be no democracy in Taiwan. Communist China won't convert so easily. These people want to stay in power and use any means necessary to stay in power.

And as China becomes democratic, I believe Tibet and Taiwan issue will be solved in a civilized manner. If you wanna force the issue now, only bad thing is gonna happen with this fvcked up communist leadership.

China will not be democratic anytime in our lifetimes so you and I won't know if that happens.

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
On a strictly unrelated side note: Air pollution levels in Beijing are five times higher than the World Health Organization's recommended safety levels.

i find it laughable that the IOC is saying these protests are unfair to the athletes. If they actually did give a damn to the athletes they wouldn't be holding the games in such a polluted environment as Beijing. If they did care about athletes they should have held it in the UK. These games are all about money money money for the IOC. China is a big market, they want a cut of it.

 

[SlickSnake]

The Chinese try put on this friendly labor and freedom loving face on for the world, but this documentary filmmaker got the bead on them, instead.

This is the kind of video Wallymart and other corporate slave labor loving execs do not want you to see the next time you buy Chinese goods. Especially now that the Wallymart global distribution hub is now centered in China!

This video really ticked me off. Barbed wire to keep the people out, not in, my ass. And 10 cents an hour with salary deducted for damn near EVERY thing except breathing. Including food and lodging deducted. And don't forget, they let you out of forced confinement 4 times a month! PARRTTYY!

Until the world STOPS buying Chinese crap, this will never end. It will just keep growing like a cancer, until its killed off, or everyone else is killed off in the process. Notice they do not even provide hand protection or ANYTHING to the employees while they stain their skins mixing toxic dyes with their hands, and breath in toxic fumes all day from melted plastics.

Mardis Gras: Made In China

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: maddogchen

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Thump553
I disagree. China, like so my tyrannical governments before it (Hilter's Germany, Tito's Yugoslavia, etc) are hosting these games specifically for a public relations showcase. In my view, any nonviolent action taken to disrupt and disprove that phony showcase is not only fair game, but is to be encouraged.

If people of Chinese descent or ordinary citizens of China think these actions are directed against them, they are wrong.

Tibet and its people have been nonviolently struggling against this invasion and power grab for half a century now. Can you really fault them for exploiting the best opportunity available in a long time to peacefully advance their cause? I certainly can't.

What you don't understand is China has come a long way since 1989 Tiannamen square massacre. It may still be undemocratic, but as its economy improve and more Chinese are exposed to western culture, things are much improved. Just go visit any major city in china to see if you can compare China to Hilter's Germany or Tito's Yugoslavia.

they have more luxury items but human rights, news, internet, everything is still tightly controlled by the government. Actually its worse off than before China was given the Olympics. All these China suckups like businesses and Barbara Boxer and the IOC who were looking to make money in China have been shown to be wrong time and time again on their calls that exposing China to the Olympics and western ideals will push China to be democratic have been proven terribly wrong. Instead its western businesses like Yahoo changing and conforming to Communist China's ways. But they don't care, they're terribly rich now.

I see both side of the arguments. I see a strong bias in the western media against china, and that lead to people protesting strongly with this Olympic crap. I also see how Chinese decision to not allow freedom of press doesn't help their cause. But it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. If the world want China to join the rank of democratic society, everyone need to keep working with the Chinese people, keep the exchange open and one day Chinese people will decide for themselves that democracy is good for them.

This is where I think I've stated how I disagreed with you before but I'll repeat it here again. I think as long as Chinese Communist leaders keep the Chinese population rich they won't care about democracy. Chinese care more about money than about human rights or freedoms. The only way the Chinese will decide to force the issue and change to democracy is if the Communist leaders screw up the economy so badly that it hurts all their pocketbooks.

Most of them probably don't even care about Tibetans. Having been exposed to Chinese culture and lived and worked briefly in China, I have seen some of the inherent racism of Han Chinese against the minority. Thats why they populate minority areas with Han Chinese to make them more Han. Example:

"They have no culture and they don't try to study and improve themselves," said a Chinese delivery driver who would only give his surname, Wang, because he said the government didn't want him to speak ill of the Uighurs. "Most businesses don't want to hire them. That's why they hire Han Chinese. Their religion, Islam, it's no good. It fills their heads with nonsense."

Text

That is not a impassible scenario. Both South Korea and Taiwan were ruled by dictator 30~20 years ago. But now they are 100% democracy. And it doesn't require a freaking US invasion to accomplish that too.

Dictators die. And both countries survival was dependent on the US. Without the US, there would be only one Korea, a Communist one. Without the US, there would be no democracy in Taiwan. Communist China won't convert so easily. These people want to stay in power and use any means necessary to stay in power.

And as China becomes democratic, I believe Tibet and Taiwan issue will be solved in a civilized manner. If you wanna force the issue now, only bad thing is gonna happen with this fvcked up communist leadership.

China will not be democratic anytime in our lifetimes so you and I won't know if that happens.

Mang, look at yourself. You sound exactly like Israelis talking about Palestinian and vice versa. Nice generalization on the entire group of people. Well you can certainly go about a conflict your way, talk trash, continue the standoff and see where it gets you. Not like China really give a sh!t about western opinion anyway. They may lose face in this Olympic, but they hold billions of US T-bills and they can crash the dollar if they feel cornered. In the end, people from both side is gonna suffer from the standoff. Your choice.

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: maddogchen

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Thump553
I disagree. China, like so my tyrannical governments before it (Hilter's Germany, Tito's Yugoslavia, etc) are hosting these games specifically for a public relations showcase. In my view, any nonviolent action taken to disrupt and disprove that phony showcase is not only fair game, but is to be encouraged.

If people of Chinese descent or ordinary citizens of China think these actions are directed against them, they are wrong.

Tibet and its people have been nonviolently struggling against this invasion and power grab for half a century now. Can you really fault them for exploiting the best opportunity available in a long time to peacefully advance their cause? I certainly can't.

What you don't understand is China has come a long way since 1989 Tiannamen square massacre. It may still be undemocratic, but as its economy improve and more Chinese are exposed to western culture, things are much improved. Just go visit any major city in china to see if you can compare China to Hilter's Germany or Tito's Yugoslavia.

they have more luxury items but human rights, news, internet, everything is still tightly controlled by the government. Actually its worse off than before China was given the Olympics. All these China suckups like businesses and Barbara Boxer and the IOC who were looking to make money in China have been shown to be wrong time and time again on their calls that exposing China to the Olympics and western ideals will push China to be democratic have been proven terribly wrong. Instead its western businesses like Yahoo changing and conforming to Communist China's ways. But they don't care, they're terribly rich now.

I see both side of the arguments. I see a strong bias in the western media against china, and that lead to people protesting strongly with this Olympic crap. I also see how Chinese decision to not allow freedom of press doesn't help their cause. But it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. If the world want China to join the rank of democratic society, everyone need to keep working with the Chinese people, keep the exchange open and one day Chinese people will decide for themselves that democracy is good for them.

This is where I think I've stated how I disagreed with you before but I'll repeat it here again. I think as long as Chinese Communist leaders keep the Chinese population rich they won't care about democracy. Chinese care more about money than about human rights or freedoms. The only way the Chinese will decide to force the issue and change to democracy is if the Communist leaders screw up the economy so badly that it hurts all their pocketbooks.

Most of them probably don't even care about Tibetans. Having been exposed to Chinese culture and lived and worked briefly in China, I have seen some of the inherent racism of Han Chinese against the minority. Thats why they populate minority areas with Han Chinese to make them more Han. Example:

"They have no culture and they don't try to study and improve themselves," said a Chinese delivery driver who would only give his surname, Wang, because he said the government didn't want him to speak ill of the Uighurs. "Most businesses don't want to hire them. That's why they hire Han Chinese. Their religion, Islam, it's no good. It fills their heads with nonsense."

Text

That is not a impassible scenario. Both South Korea and Taiwan were ruled by dictator 30~20 years ago. But now they are 100% democracy. And it doesn't require a freaking US invasion to accomplish that too.

Dictators die. And both countries survival was dependent on the US. Without the US, there would be only one Korea, a Communist one. Without the US, there would be no democracy in Taiwan. Communist China won't convert so easily. These people want to stay in power and use any means necessary to stay in power.

And as China becomes democratic, I believe Tibet and Taiwan issue will be solved in a civilized manner. If you wanna force the issue now, only bad thing is gonna happen with this fvcked up communist leadership.

China will not be democratic anytime in our lifetimes so you and I won't know if that happens.

Mang, look at yourself. You sound exactly like Israelis talking about Palestinian and vice versa. Nice generalization on the entire group of people. Well you can certainly go about a conflict your way, talk trash, continue the standoff and see where it gets you. Not like China really give a sh!t about western opinion anyway. They may lose face in this Olympic, but they hold billions of US T-bills and they can crash the dollar if they feel cornered. In the end, people from both side is gonna suffer from the standoff. Your choice.

I'm just telling the truth, not sugarcoating it like you and saying everything is gonna be alright.

edit: I think too many people are coddling Communist China, hoping that they will come around to more freedoms. "Don't push them too hard, they'll come around eventually." I say instead we should use the carrot and the stick method. Encourage them and praise them when they move towards freedoms and scold them when they limit them.

They clamped down violently on protests in Tibet, they limited press freedoms, they've clamped down on coverage in China, they've imprisoned activists in the run up to the Olympics. Here's the stick. If they had opened up, did not imprison activists, let them stage their protests, let them speak out about China's human rights concerns while the Olympics were going on, we definitely wouldn't have seen the level of demonstrations we see today.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: maddogchen

I'm just telling the truth, not sugarcoating it like you and saying everything is gonna be alright.

edit: I think too many people are coddling Communist China, hoping that they will come around to more freedoms. "Don't push them too hard, they'll come around eventually." I say instead we should use the carrot and the stick method. Encourage them and praise them when they move towards freedoms and scold them when they limit them.

They clamped down violently on protests in Tibet, they limited press freedoms, they've clamped down on coverage in China, they've imprisoned activists in the run up to the Olympics. Here's the stick. If they had opened up, did not imprison activists, let them stage their protests, let them speak out about China's human rights concerns while the Olympics were going on, we definitely wouldn't have seen the level of demonstrations we see today.

What you don't get is change for China must come from within, from the Chinese people themselves. How else would you change Chinese politic? Another American invasion? All you can do is continue the business and other exchange and influence Chinese people as possible so they can change their government themselves. Like the OP stated, all the standoff between activist and the chinese people only make the chinese people hate western ways more and slow down their progress towards democracy. And your bias and generalization certainly doesn't help that progress either.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: tiejiba

Their enemy is Chinese Communist Government, not Chinese people.

I think that the Chinese tend to be extremely nationalistic. Criticizing the Chinese government makes them an enemy of many Chinese people.

 

[Drift3r]

I don't think you'll ever see a US or European style democracy in China. Not even a Japanese style one. China has had a long history of wanting and craving strong central governments which even predates the current Communist government today. The only instances of Democratic or Republic style rule in China were fraught with corruption and ended up in utter failure.

The majority of Chinese people in China want and like a government which can provide for them and maintain order and peace above everything else. The issues of human rights and other agendas like it will move slowly in China because the people in China do not want a break down of law and order. As for the protesting today in San Francisco I thought some of it was classless and out of line. Especially with the reports of death threats and fights breaking out were the protectors were located.

 

[extra]

"However, trying to take away or extinguish the Olympic torch is just violent and not smart. "

This is one of those things that I don't even understand why people give a shit about. Oh noez, they are trying to take a torch!!! Seems like a silly way to try to deal with the issues your area is facing. Best thing to do would be when the protesters come to try to take it away just hand it to them and wish them well and ask them to carry it with you. I bet that would be so shocking they wouldn't know what to do.

The reality is that the government in Tibet before communist China was there did despicable things too. To try to say that it was a peaceful happy country where everyone was treated well, like it was some paradise for everyone before the Communists came is just silly.

Both sides have done some crazy stuff...thing is, Tibet has been under China's control now for a quite a long time. They should, instead of trying to get independence, work on getting acceptance for their culture and work on getting a little autonomy, like a Hong-Kong type situation. Something that would benefit their people AND help China save face as well.

That is what this is about. It isn't about helping people, or about ideology, or about human rights. IT IS ABOUT SAVING FACE AND PRIDE. On both sides. Period. Maybe decades ago it was about human rights or freedom. It isn't anymore.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: extra
"However, trying to take away or extinguish the Olympic torch is just violent and not smart. "

This is one of those things that I don't even understand why people give a shit about. Oh noez, they are trying to take a torch!!! Seems like a silly way to try to deal with the issues your area is facing. Best thing to do would be when the protesters come to try to take it away just hand it to them and wish them well and ask them to carry it with you. I bet that would be so shocking they wouldn't know what to do.

The reality is that the government in Tibet before communist China was there did despicable things too. To try to say that it was a peaceful happy country where everyone was treated well, like it was some paradise for everyone before the Communists came is just silly.

Both sides have done some crazy stuff...thing is, Tibet has been under China's control now for a quite a long time. They should, instead of trying to get independence, work on getting acceptance for their culture and work on getting a little autonomy, like a Hong-Kong type situation. Something that would benefit their people AND help China save face as well.

That is what this is about. It isn't about helping people, or about ideology, or about human rights. IT IS ABOUT SAVING FACE AND PRIDE. On both sides. Period. Maybe decades ago it was about human rights or freedom. It isn't anymore.

:laugh:

 

[gregshin]

Are you SURE its only tibetians that are trying to extinguish the torch. i thought the french and other foriegn citizens we're doing that. i think you should re title your post

 

[senseamp]

I thought Tibetans wanted to replace the Olympic torch with an Olympic incense stick