Thousands of Israelis rally in defence of human rights

[Oric]

Gives everyone hope for peace ..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/16/thousands-israelis-rally-rights-organisations?CMP=twt_gu

 

[Craig234]

There has always been a large segment in Israel who are wonderful, principled people who support values, morality. They're a very nice political element.

It's similar to how the US has always had its 'progressive' segment - but both have often had no effect on the government.

These good segments do not legitimize the government's wrongs, just as progressive opposition to launching war in Iraq did not legitimize the Bush policy.

The US needs enough progressives in power to set policy - something we haven't had since the 60's I'd say - and Israel needs enough good people there to set policy.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Gives everyone hope for peace

All that is missing is mass Palestinian demonstrations against Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Popular Resistance Committees, Hezbollah, etc.

 

[Infohawk]

There has always been a large segment in Israel who are wonderful, principled people who support values, morality. They're a very nice political element.

It's similar to how the US has always had its 'progressive' segment - but both have often had no effect on the government.

These good segments do not legitimize the government's wrongs, just as progressive opposition to launching war in Iraq did not legitimize the Bush policy.

The US needs enough progressives in power to set policy - something we haven't had since the 60's I'd say - and Israel needs enough good people there to set policy.

Summary: "liberals are good people. They should be in power here and in Israel." What a useless post.

 

[MovingTarget]

Summary: "liberals are good people. They should be in power here and in Israel." What a useless post.

Good thing we never see anything from the conservative camp stating the exact same thing about themselves. :whiste:

The progressives in those two instances were correct. Unfortunately at the time of the Iraq war runup, I was still in the conservative camp. How is Craig wrong in this example? Sure, progressives are wrong on many issues, but not in the instances Craig listed.

 

[MovingTarget]

All that is missing is mass Palestinian demonstrations against Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Popular Resistance Committees, Hezbollah, etc.

This. For there to be lasting peace, there must be unity between Israeli and Palestinian camps denouncing BOTH sides bad policies.

 

[Karl Agathon]

All that is missing is mass Palestinian demonstrations against Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Popular Resistance Committees, Hezbollah, etc.

:thumbsup:

 

[JEDIYoda]

All that is missing is mass Palestinian demonstrations against Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Popular Resistance Committees, Hezbollah, etc.

__________________

you would think with the support of the 1.6 billion peaceful Muslims throughout the world that the Palestinians would rise up and demonstrate against Hamas and Hezbollah...etc....

 

[Lemon law]

you would think with the support of the 1.6 billion peaceful Muslims throughout the world that the Palestinians would rise up and demonstrate against Hamas and Hezbollah...etc....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact there are now youth Palestinian groups who are unhappy with both Hamas and Fatah.

But the total JediY fantasy, given the way that Israel treats both Arabs and Palestinians, is that Arab nations, Palestinians, and Muslims world wide would in any way support current Israeli policy in any way.

But still what we have in this thread is a significant minority of Israelis questioning majority Israeli government policy, and why should not we expect the larger world to not question and fail to develop a 100% common consensus about what Palestinian leadership should be.

And therein lies the somewhat danger to Israel. Given the Palestinians under Fatah have renounced violence and the Palestinians under Hamas still consider terrorism against Israel as a legitimate tactic. Its still up to a Palestinian democratic vote. Which group will obtain
Palestinian Statehood first? So far the answer is that neither tactic works, but if international pressure ends the Israeli blockade of Gaza, then in fact Hamas will achieve statehood first. Why then would Palestinians in the West Bank not vote to unite with Hamas and then start giving 500,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem the ole heave ho from a legitimate and united Palestinian State?

Its politics 101, the group that delivers the bacon wins the popular vote.

Right now its still Netanyuhu and his crazed settler parties winning the popular vote even if it may lead Israel to an approaching disaster. For the Palestinians, we have the gamut of all strategies, and none of them work thus far. But after 43 years of Israeli squatting on and settling on land Israel can never own, time is rapidly running out for the crazed settler party Israeli policy.

 

[Hacp]

Send them packing with a one way ticket to Iran.

 

[Infohawk]

Good thing we never see anything from the conservative camp stating the exact same thing about themselves. :whiste:

The progressives in those two instances were correct. Unfortunately at the time of the Iraq war runup, I was still in the conservative camp. How is Craig wrong in this example? Sure, progressives are wrong on many issues, but not in the instances Craig listed.

Maybe you should stop worrying about which camp you're in? At the Iraq war runup, I was against it and still am. Yet I can still see that Craig is not really saying anything here. Sure there are inane posts from conservatives too, but two wrongs doesn't make Craig right.

 

[SamurAchzar]

All that is missing is mass Palestinian demonstrations against Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Popular Resistance Committees, Hezbollah, etc.

Right on the money.

By the way, what upset these organizations were probes into their funding sources, they are suspected in receiving money from illegitimate sources, about the same as Iran donating ti the dems...

 

[EagleKeeper]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact there are now youth Palestinian groups who are unhappy with both Hamas and Fatah.

But the total JediY fantasy, given the way that Israel treats both Arabs and Palestinians, is that Arab nations, Palestinians, and Muslims world wide would in any way support current Israeli policy in any way.

But still what we have in this thread is a significant minority of Israelis questioning majority Israeli government policy, and why should not we expect the larger world to not question and fail to develop a 100% common consensus about what Palestinian leadership should be.

And therein lies the somewhat danger to Israel. Given the Palestinians under Fatah have renounced violence and the Palestinians under Hamas still consider terrorism against Israel as a legitimate tactic. Its still up to a Palestinian democratic vote. Which group will obtain
Palestinian Statehood first? So far the answer is that neither tactic works, but if international pressure ends the Israeli blockade of Gaza, then in fact Hamas will achieve statehood first. Why then would Palestinians in the West Bank not vote to unite with Hamas and then start giving 500,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem the ole heave ho from a legitimate and united Palestinian State?

Its politics 101, the group that delivers the bacon wins the popular vote.

Right now its still Netanyuhu and his crazed settler parties winning the popular vote even if it may lead Israel to an approaching disaster. For the Palestinians, we have the gamut of all strategies, and none of them work thus far. But after 43 years of Israeli squatting on and settling on land Israel can never own, time is rapidly running out for the crazed settler party Israeli policy.

Please provide an example where there is current international pressure against Israel to end the blockade.

Current can be within the past 3 months; does not have to be this past week.

There was a total of 3 attempts to run the blockade - two were half hearted and ran for shelter when told to, one was a setup by organizations that were determined to be more interested in a conflict than supply delivery.

No warships are escorting supply boats (as predicted)

Egypt has not opened its borders
Israel relaxed restrictions on certain imports; construction supplies and items that can be used for weapons manufacture are still blocked.

You have half a dozen South American countries acknowledging the Palestinians. That does not seem to be international pressure.

Gaza can not afford to become a state - then they have no cover from actions from their territory.

 

[brandonb]

A few thousand decent Jews are better than none. Good for them. Maybe that is a start.

 

[EagleKeeper]

A few thousand decent Jews are better than none. Good for them. Maybe that is a start.

Maybe is now the time that Arabs and Palestinians will join up with these types of groups so an effort be made to promote that living together as they did before Israel existed can also be done nodays.

 

[brandonb]

Weren't they living together before the creation of Israel? So who/what changed that?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Weren't they living together before the creation of Israel? So who/what changed that?

Greed/Ego

New Arab nations could not handle a Jewish state in their midst.
Figured on wiping out this infant and taking all the land for themselves. Arab/Palstinian population were advised to get out of the way, they could come back later and pick through the spoils.

However, the little infant refused to give it up.

Rinse and repeat over the past 60+ years with the anti Jewish players changing around but still attacking Israel.
Now what the Arab nations have figured out that they can not do on their own; they have passed onto proxies to do the dirty work for them.

 

[Lemon law]

So at least EK concedes it was not the Palestinians who attacked Israel in 1948, yet he dies not explain why the Israel of 1948 did not let its peaceful Palestinians who fled their homes to avoid being killed return to their land once Israel had beat off the Arab Armies? And why Israel, then instead stole the Palestinians homes and property and forced them out of Israel at the point of a gun.

And keeps Palestinians in barely survivable concentration camps to this very day while denying them basic human rights???????????????

Please explain to this forum why the government of Israel is not the greatest villain here. Especially since Israelis still settle on land they can never own in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. And will not even stop settling for the sake of peace talks.

 

[chucky2]

I don't necessairly disagree with the rest of your post, but, they did stop settling, for 8 months. In those 8 months, the Pal Leadership did.......nothing.

So just right there, you've already got something wrong with your post.

Chuck

 

[EagleKeeper]

So at least EK concedes it was not the Palestinians who attacked Israel in 1948, yet he dies not explain why the Israel of 1948 did not let its peaceful Palestinians who fled their homes to avoid being killed return to their land once Israel had beat off the Arab Armies? And why Israel, then instead stole the Palestinians homes and property and forced them out of Israel at the point of a gun.

And keeps Palestinians in barely survivable concentration camps to this very day while denying them basic human rights???????????????

Please explain to this forum why the government of Israel is not the greatest villain here. Especially since Israelis still settle on land they can never own in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. And will not even stop settling for the sake of peace talks.

The Arabs attacked the Israel in '48
Palestinians that sided with the Arabs either assisted in the fighting or left at the insistence of the Arab nations. Those that ran were not afraid of getting killed - the Arabs wanted to be able to do a clean sweep adn not worry about who was on what side. enemies hiding amoung civilian population (ring any bells)? A few Palestinians stayed to help Israel and defend their lands. those were not greedy and coveting the neighbors fields.

One of the promises of the Arabs in '48, was that the Palestinians would return to a Palestine that was cleansed of Jews. What the Jews had improved would be available for the taking. And it was quite an improvement over what existed before the Jewish settlers arrived in mass to development the arid lands.

The reverse happened. After most of the Palestinians left, the Arabs lost and Israel took over the land left by those that expected the reverse result. The Palestinians that ran, gambled and lost. Then they started terror attacks because they lost. The Palestinians as a group have not demonstrated that they deserve a state and most time act as if they do not want one unless it is on their terms.

And the statement that you love to ignore/are unable to answer. Where was Abbas for the first 8 months when the requested freeze was in place?

 

[chucky2]

Would not Israel though have to prove for each "Palestinian" (in "" because there is no such people before '48) that owned land that in fact said "Palestinian" did in fact gamble and lose, and not flee the fighting?

If they can't prove that, then would not that land belong rightfully to the "Palestinian", and not Israel?

Example:

We're in effect being soft attacked by Mexico. If we militarily go across the border to F up these Mexican POS's that are creating havoc in Mexico and playing a large part in making Mexicans come here (not in total part, but, a large part), and the citizens flee while our military is rolling through...

...that land doesn't belong to the US. It still belongs to those Mexican's that owned it before.

So how precisely did Israel figure out for all these pieces of owned land that each of those owners conspired with Israel's enemies at the time?

Chuck

 

[Freshgeardude]

Would not Israel though have to prove for each "Palestinian" (in "" because there is no such people before '48) that owned land that in fact said "Palestinian" did in fact gamble and lose, and not flee the fighting?

If they can't prove that, then would not that land belong rightfully to the "Palestinian", and not Israel?

Example:

We're in effect being soft attacked by Mexico. If we militarily go across the border to F up these Mexican POS's that are creating havoc in Mexico and playing a large part in making Mexicans come here (not in total part, but, a large part), and the citizens flee while our military is rolling through...

...that land doesn't belong to the US. It still belongs to those Mexican's that owned it before.

So how precisely did Israel figure out for all these pieces of owned land that each of those owners conspired with Israel's enemies at the time?

Chuck

you are right. in 48, israel didnt conquest over the entire land.

if you check the blue, thats what israel would of had.

70% of that land is known today as the Negev, pure desert land. the jews didnt care.

after though, (in pink) you can tell israel took land as a buffer around the west bank.

they also took northern israel, because that was fertile land they could use.

also note, there are 2 points where blue and pink meet at an "X" where pink is surrounding closing in blue land.


these places were used by palestinians to attack jews. these were common ambush points against jews going into their own territory.


you can obviously tell, israel wanted to eradicate that problem.


also note, arab nations moan for the 1967 borders and not 1948 borders.

both land gained by israel were won in wars where the arabs were the clear aggressors.


why wouldnt they call for a return to 1948 borders?

1967 is being used as a political tool. once that fails them, they will cry again

 

[zinfamous]

All that is missing is mass Palestinian demonstrations against Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Popular Resistance Committees, Hezbollah, etc.

true enough, but the sad reality is that these are the only organizations that offer some semblance of protection to the most destitute of refugees.

When it comes to how they decide what is best for their own family, sometimes the worst decision for all is the only decision for yourself.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Would not Israel though have to prove for each "Palestinian" (in "" because there is no such people before '48) that owned land that in fact said "Palestinian" did in fact gamble and lose, and not flee the fighting?

If they can't prove that, then would not that land belong rightfully to the "Palestinian", and not Israel?

So how precisely did Israel figure out for all these pieces of owned land that each of those owners conspired with Israel's enemies at the time?

Chuck

I would expect that any Palestinian that did not attempt to return to Israel after the end of the '48 hostilites would be suspect by Israeli authorities.

Any that are documented as running around with the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc type groups would be unlikely to come forward.

People usually know what their neighbors are doing

 

[chucky2]

I would expect that any Palestinian that did not attempt to return to Israel after the end of the '48 hostilites would be suspect by Israeli authorities.

Any that are documented as running around with the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc type groups would be unlikely to come forward.

People usually know what their neighbors are doing

I seriously doubt that. How are you going to return to land that is Israeli controlled and 'you're not welcome on any longer'? As far as I can remember, there were/are many examples of Jews basically making it impossible/very difficult for "Palestinians" to remain on the land they were on.

Seems to me that Israel made a land grab (by whatever means necessary), figured possession was 9/10's of the law, and in reality, doesn't give a F who doesn't like it, and is holding on to what they've got.

They're just doing the same exact things with the settlements...

Chuck

P.S. Don't peg me as a pro-"Palestinian" either...personally I think the entire world should go 'hands off', and let both those two groups of people fight it out with each other. It's just strikes me as amazing that people who experienced a holocaust would be willingly to do one against their newfound neighbors.