Those against UHC: How do you plan on solving our health care crisis?

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Simple question:

- We know costs are rising.
- There's a growing concern of the uninsured.

What do we do to control this if it's not by implementing UHC?

 

[BarrySotero]

Tort reform - get the illegals away from bankrupting hospitals etc.- stop mandating every little thing be covered. I am sorry if someone's kid dies from a rare heart condition during a high school soccer game - that is no reason to crusade to get pols to pass laws making all student athletes get extensive and expensive heart tests (true story near me).

For years pols have been forcing a longer lists of people who have to be covered and for more things. Now the plan is to limit Granny Smith from her hip replacement but the illegal gets covered. The US has been turned into a fatted calf that pays exorbitant sums of money it doesn't have for people that aren't even citizens.

I don't mind some rationing where a person has a choice to bypass it. If someone is 200 lbs overweight and gets denied a knee replacement then that makes sense since they can lose weight. Telling people they can't have a pacemaker because they are 65 is rough because they could live a lot longer and the age shouldn't be fixed. Obamacare has counseling for seniors to prep them to die.

 

[bamacre]

You cannot bring down the cost of health care until you understand why the costs are high in the first place.

But at this point, the argument is moot. Dem's will pass health care reform.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: bamacre
You cannot bring down the cost of health care until you understand why the costs are high in the first place.

But at this point, the argument is moot. Dem's will pass health care reform.

Some people say it's because we pay for the 46 million uninsured in the most terrible way. But the CBO just said that the current UHC plans will only bankrupt our nation faster. I was beginning to think that with the lack of suggestions from the conservatives that I might have to bite the bullet and just accept a UHC overhaul. Until I read that it would just screw us over more.... Great.

 

[dawp]

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Tort reform - get the illegals away from bankrupting hospitals etc.- stop mandating every little thing be covered. I am sorry if someone's kid dies from a rare heart condition during a high school soccer game - that is no reason to crusade to get pols to pass laws making all student athletes get extensive and expensive heart tests (true story near me).

For years pols have been forcing a longer lists of people who have to be covered and for more things. Now the plan is to limit Granny Smith from her hip replacement but the illegal gets covered. The US has been turned into a fatted calf that pays exorbitant sums of money it doesn't have for people that aren't even citizens.

I don't mind some rationing where a person has a choice to bypass it. If someone is 200 lbs overweight and gets denied a knee replacement then that makes sense since they can lose weight. Telling people they can't have a pacemaker because they are 65 is rough because they could live a lot longer and the age shouldn't be fixed. Obamacare has counseling for seniors to prep them to die.

tort reform didn't work in TX where malpractise is limited to $250,000, if i remember right.

 

[Kadarin]

From my admittedly uninformed perspective, I'm guessing that the Republicans were they to have remained in power would have continued to do nothing, so long as healthcare industry lobbyists donate to reelection campaigns and the industry itself continues to rake in multiple billions of dollars.

 

[dahunan]

soylent green

 

[themusgrat]

I agree that UHC is a good idea, even Republicans have to agree, if you just sit back and think about it. If you could design a system that provided health care to every American at a cost competitive per person with a good private plan, then why not? The problem with this current proposal is that it doesn't do anything to address the "competitive cost" issue. If the government has trouble paying for millions of uninsured, I'd guess that it will still have a problem paying for everyone. Uninsured Americans represent a very small percentage of what America as a whole spends on health care every year. Also, tort reform, and reform to the whole malpractice suit thing. Individual suits aren't that big of a deal, but what will be a big deal, is if and when someone finds some tort lawsuit that applies against the government and gets some massive fine. What will the government do then? Chalk it up against the deficit, or raise taxes?

I mean when you get right down to it, we all know there's a way to make this work. And if it can work well, which I believe it can, then there wouldn't be much opposition. But implementing this particular plan, which will create much more government control and limitation over the American health industry which is where most new developments take place, while losing Americans jobs in the biggest recession in decades, not to mention the plan doesn't do anything to address the underlying reason that so many people are uninsured in the first place, well this plan is destined to fail. If it gets passed, it will cause many problems which will take years to fix, and Congress will spend the next 10 years gradually shaping health care into something that works. Losing money all the way I might add.

 

[BarrySotero]

Originally posted by: dawp

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Tort reform - get the illegals away from bankrupting hospitals etc.- stop mandating every little thing be covered. I am sorry if someone's kid dies from a rare heart condition during a high school soccer game - that is no reason to crusade to get pols to pass laws making all student athletes get extensive and expensive heart tests (true story near me).

For years pols have been forcing a longer lists of people who have to be covered and for more things. Now the plan is to limit Granny Smith from her hip replacement but the illegal gets covered. The US has been turned into a fatted calf that pays exorbitant sums of money it doesn't have for people that aren't even citizens.

I don't mind some rationing where a person has a choice to bypass it. If someone is 200 lbs overweight and gets denied a knee replacement then that makes sense since they can lose weight. Telling people they can't have a pacemaker because they are 65 is rough because they could live a lot longer and the age shouldn't be fixed. Obamacare has counseling for seniors to prep them to die.

tort reform didn't work in TX where malpractise is limited to $250,000, if i remember right.

I've read good things about it. Plus Med insurance costs a third to half of what I have to pay back East .

"Why Doctors Are Heading for Texas"

In 2003 and in 2005, Texas enacted a series of reforms to the state's civil justice system. They are stunning in their success. Texas Medical Liability Trust, one of the largest malpractice insurance companies in the state, has slashed its premiums by 35%, saving doctors some $217 million over four years. There is also a competitive malpractice insurance industry in Texas, with over 30 companies competing for business. This is driving rates down.

The result is an influx of doctors so great that recently the State Board of Medical Examiners couldn't process all the new medical-license applications quickly enough"


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121097874071799863.html

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Originally posted by: dawp

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Tort reform - get the illegals away from bankrupting hospitals etc.- stop mandating every little thing be covered. I am sorry if someone's kid dies from a rare heart condition during a high school soccer game - that is no reason to crusade to get pols to pass laws making all student athletes get extensive and expensive heart tests (true story near me).

For years pols have been forcing a longer lists of people who have to be covered and for more things. Now the plan is to limit Granny Smith from her hip replacement but the illegal gets covered. The US has been turned into a fatted calf that pays exorbitant sums of money it doesn't have for people that aren't even citizens.

I don't mind some rationing where a person has a choice to bypass it. If someone is 200 lbs overweight and gets denied a knee replacement then that makes sense since they can lose weight. Telling people they can't have a pacemaker because they are 65 is rough because they could live a lot longer and the age shouldn't be fixed. Obamacare has counseling for seniors to prep them to die.

tort reform didn't work in TX where malpractise is limited to $250,000, if i remember right.

I've read good things about it. Plus Med insurance costs a third to half of what I have to pay back East .

"Why Doctors Are Heading for Texas"

In 2003 and in 2005, Texas enacted a series of reforms to the state's civil justice system. They are stunning in their success. Texas Medical Liability Trust, one of the largest malpractice insurance companies in the state, has slashed its premiums by 35%, saving doctors some $217 million over four years. There is also a competitive malpractice insurance industry in Texas, with over 30 companies competing for business. This is driving rates down.

The result is an influx of doctors so great that recently the State Board of Medical Examiners couldn't process all the new medical-license applications quickly enough"


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121097874071799863.html

The big issue though is that if you compare losses from Malpractice suits to overall cost of health care it is not really a large chunk of the problem.

 

[BarrySotero]

Malpractice is not the only problem. Docs order too many tests to cover their butt for protection. Tort reform has large positive consequences. It should not be off the table while granny is being shut out of care and given death counseling.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: BarrySotero
Malpractice is not the only problem. Docs order too many tests to cover their butt for protection. Tort reform has large positive consequences. It should not be off the table while granny is being shut out of care and given death counseling.

You've brought that up a few times.

Why do you think the elderly will be shut out of care? The main purpose of a universal health care system is to protect everyone from situations like that.

 

[StageLeft]

Health care costs are rising in every nation. This idea that UHC = reduced and those against UHC don't care is silly. UHC solves nothing. The congressional budget office has said exactly this, which makes sense.

I guarantee that healthcare costs will take more out of the GDP in five years than they do today. Absolutely.

Why do you think the elderly will be shut out of care? The main purpose of a universal health care system is to protect everyone from situations like that.

Now limited resources are stretched thinner. Granny will wait even longer for her hip replacement, and doctors in UHC countries can get malpractice, too.

 

[charrison]

The first step to controlling is to put cost back into the market. Right now the employer paid insurance largely masks any costs in the system. It is time to kill the the tax shelter on health premiums. This would be as as a revenue stream, but as disincentive for continueing this practice.
Consumer could better shop around for an insurance package hat better fits theirs needs.

People need to carry their own catastrophic insurance that independent of their employment. This is a very inexpensive to do. Employers could still supplement your catastrophic plan with money to fill an HSA. There is a good op-ed by the safeway ceo on the results they have had doing something similar to this. It has controlled cost and emoployees are happy and much better health care consumers. And it is actually encouraging employees to live healther as well as catching small problems before they become big ones.

Then we need to stop insuring the affordable. It is foolish to spendi hundreds every month, for the luxury of a $20 copay at the docs office. If it affordable and common prodecure it does not need to be covered by insurance, pay it out of pocket.

Tort reform. There needs to be some tort reform. biggest costs from excessive lawyering is defensive medicine where every test is run, just to be sure.

Let insurance be sold across state lines. My old employer had to carry several different plans because of different state requirement. This reduced competition and the size of pool for the ones they were insuring.



There there are things in medicine which can be done better. Docs need to prescribe inexpensive generics when possible(in my experience they do not).

There is report that when hospitals implement simple checklists for routine procedures, quality of care goes way because things are not missed. This means far fewer infections and shorter hospital stays.

There is also a story on a Indian doctor that has taken the walmart idea to heart procedures. His hosptial has better results than over hear and at much lower costs, because he is using volume to drive down costs.

and this would just be a start.

 

[Bateluer]

The current UHC plan in Congress shouldn't be passed. First, not a single politician has read the 1000+ page bill. Even President Obama himself, when asked about specific provisions in the bill, responded by saying he was unfamiliar and proceeding to give a canned response. Second, If I choose not to have the Government option because I like my private option, I get a tax increase, 5 to 10 percent depending on my income. If my employer decides not to offer the government option and stick with their private option, they get a tax increase. Everyone who qualifies as 'Rich', the politicians current definition is 90K+ per year, will get a tax increase. Those making over 200,000 per year will be paying more than 1/3rd in federal income tax alone. Combine it with state taxes, sales taxes, and other taxes, and that's probably more then 1/2 your income thrown away.

Health care should be more like car insurance. If you get a flat tire, it usually isn't covered. You change the tire yourself or take it over to a garage and have them replace it, paying for it out of pocket. Auto insurance does not cover everything, nor should it. People would refuse to buy auto insurance if it did cover everything because the price would be extreme.

 

[SammyJr]

Tax cuts for the wealthy
Oppose Obama
War in Iran
Prayer in public schools

/Republican

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: dawp

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Tort reform - get the illegals away from bankrupting hospitals etc.- stop mandating every little thing be covered. I am sorry if someone's kid dies from a rare heart condition during a high school soccer game - that is no reason to crusade to get pols to pass laws making all student athletes get extensive and expensive heart tests (true story near me).

For years pols have been forcing a longer lists of people who have to be covered and for more things. Now the plan is to limit Granny Smith from her hip replacement but the illegal gets covered. The US has been turned into a fatted calf that pays exorbitant sums of money it doesn't have for people that aren't even citizens.

I don't mind some rationing where a person has a choice to bypass it. If someone is 200 lbs overweight and gets denied a knee replacement then that makes sense since they can lose weight. Telling people they can't have a pacemaker because they are 65 is rough because they could live a lot longer and the age shouldn't be fixed. Obamacare has counseling for seniors to prep them to die.

tort reform didn't work in TX where malpractise is limited to $250,000, if i remember right.

Didn't work in IL either.

 

[Nebor]

Since it's difficult and complex to counter your first condition, the rising cost of healthcare, my plan to solve the "health care crisis," as you put it, would be to address your second condition, the growing concern over the uninsured.

I feel that with a concentrated campaign via print ads, web ads, and tv spots we could make the uninsured appear to be made up of those who wish to leach off of society, those who choose to purchase other things rather than healthcare. Imagine print ads in Forbes, "an estimated 1.2 million uninsured Americans have a subscription to Forbes, do you want to be footing the bill for their health care?" TV spots, "Odds are that most uninsured Americans watching this ad are watching it on a nicer TV than you, but they have money to burn since they're expecting you to pay for their health care."

That's how I'd solve the crisis, anyway. You guys can all beat your head against the wall over reducing costs via malpractice reform, single payer insurance, etc. for as long as you want, and you're still not going to reduce costs significantly. But if we can reduce people's concern over the uninsured, it simply becomes a non-issue.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Tort reform - get the illegals away from bankrupting hospitals etc.- stop mandating every little thing be covered. I am sorry if someone's kid dies from a rare heart condition during a high school soccer game - that is no reason to crusade to get pols to pass laws making all student athletes get extensive and expensive heart tests (true story near me).

For years pols have been forcing a longer lists of people who have to be covered and for more things. Now the plan is to limit Granny Smith from her hip replacement but the illegal gets covered. The US has been turned into a fatted calf that pays exorbitant sums of money it doesn't have for people that aren't even citizens.

I don't mind some rationing where a person has a choice to bypass it. If someone is 200 lbs overweight and gets denied a knee replacement then that makes sense since they can lose weight. Telling people they can't have a pacemaker because they are 65 is rough because they could live a lot longer and the age shouldn't be fixed. Obamacare has counseling for seniors to prep them to die.

None of these will help someone with a preexisting condition afford insurance.

 

[dawp]

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Originally posted by: dawp

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Tort reform - get the illegals away from bankrupting hospitals etc.- stop mandating every little thing be covered. I am sorry if someone's kid dies from a rare heart condition during a high school soccer game - that is no reason to crusade to get pols to pass laws making all student athletes get extensive and expensive heart tests (true story near me).

For years pols have been forcing a longer lists of people who have to be covered and for more things. Now the plan is to limit Granny Smith from her hip replacement but the illegal gets covered. The US has been turned into a fatted calf that pays exorbitant sums of money it doesn't have for people that aren't even citizens.

I don't mind some rationing where a person has a choice to bypass it. If someone is 200 lbs overweight and gets denied a knee replacement then that makes sense since they can lose weight. Telling people they can't have a pacemaker because they are 65 is rough because they could live a lot longer and the age shouldn't be fixed. Obamacare has counseling for seniors to prep them to die.

tort reform didn't work in TX where malpractise is limited to $250,000, if i remember right.

I've read good things about it. Plus Med insurance costs a third to half of what I have to pay back East .

"Why Doctors Are Heading for Texas"

In 2003 and in 2005, Texas enacted a series of reforms to the state's civil justice system. They are stunning in their success. Texas Medical Liability Trust, one of the largest malpractice insurance companies in the state, has slashed its premiums by 35%, saving doctors some $217 million over four years. There is also a competitive malpractice insurance industry in Texas, with over 30 companies competing for business. This is driving rates down.

The result is an influx of doctors so great that recently the State Board of Medical Examiners couldn't process all the new medical-license applications quickly enough"


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121097874071799863.html

The big issue though is that if you compare losses from Malpractice suits to overall cost of health care it is not really a large chunk of the problem.

plus it unfairly limits awards.

I had a neighbor down in TX that used to work construction building gas stations across the country and stepped on a nail and got a sliver of metal in his foot. he was operated on by some quacks that had no business doing surgery and nearly cost him is life with a series of operations and ended up getting gangrene. They were milking the insurance for all it was worth. he finally got to a good doc who was able to save his foot and his live. he was bedridden for several years because of their incompetence. luckily this was before awards were limited by tort reform and he is basically set for life. Do you really think $250k would be enough for all his pain and suffering and the fact he can no longer work in his chosen field?

 

[Vette73]

Bitch and complain and call anybody that wants to do something about it a socialist.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121097874071799863.html

Alarming quote from that article regarding discovery consolidation of asbestos litigation:

No one else claiming "asbestosis" has yet filed a pulmonology report showing diminished lung capacity. This means that only one-third of 1% of all those people who have filed suit claiming they were sick with asbestosis have actually had a qualified and impartial doctor agree that they have an asbestos-caused illness.

It's just disgusting to read that that many people are seeking compensation without having an actual disability. But then, working in the disability field, I unfortunately see people fake or exaggerate a disability every day.

 

[GTaudiophile]

-Totally put caps on litigation / reduce need for litigation insurance.
-Perhaps a 3 strikes you're out rule? If a doctor is sued for malpractice three times (and is proven guilty), he or she loses his or her license to practice for life.
-Enforce the "primary/family care" system. Emergencies (like getting the flu) shouldn't always mean rushing to the expensive ER (as many uninsured do). Force people to go through a primary physician first.
-Totally examine/gut the FDA and find out why companies need so much money to get their drugs approved.
-Kill all medication advertising (No more Cialis ads and the companies are forced to save money on marketing).
-Somehow allow current private health insurance companies & hospitals to better compete in a more natural way. Allow supply and demand to kick in...
-Remove government bureaucracy where possible as it only clouds transparency and adds costs.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
Those making over 200,000 per year will be paying more than 1/3rd in federal income tax alone. Combine it with state taxes, sales taxes, and other taxes, and that's probably more then 1/2 your income thrown away.

Waaaaaahhhhhh.....

Originally posted by: Bateluer
Health care should be more like car insurance. If you get a flat tire, it usually isn't covered. You change the tire yourself or take it over to a garage and have them replace it, paying for it out of pocket. Auto insurance does not cover everything, nor should it. People would refuse to buy auto insurance if it did cover everything because the price would be extreme.

Funny you mention that, because I do have car insurance that covers flat tires (except due to normal wear/tear), towing, roadside assistance, and pretty much anything else that happens on the road. That rider on my policy costs me only $30 per 6 months. I feel that it is well worth the price.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: dawp
plus it unfairly limits awards.

I had a neighbor down in TX that used to work construction building gas stations across the country and stepped on a nail and got a sliver of metal in his foot. he was operated on by some quacks that had no business doing surgery and nearly cost him is life with a series of operations and ended up getting gangrene. They were milking the insurance for all it was worth. he finally got to a good doc who was able to save his foot and his live. he was bedridden for several years because of their incompetence. luckily this was before awards were limited by tort reform and he is basically set for life. Do you really think $250k would be enough for all his pain and suffering and the fact he can no longer work in his chosen field?

No. You can't arbitrarily limit rewards. I can tell you that with my health I'd sell very little of it for $250k. If somebody put me in a wheelchair for the rest of my life and all I had to show for it was $250k I'd be hell fvcking pissed off.

I like most of charrison's ideas.