Those against UHC: How do you plan on solving our health care crisis?

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Really? Tell that to every other civilized nation.

Where is it spelled out in the Constitution? Even more relevant to the argument, why should I have to give up my good insurance plan, which is free to me, to pay for a plan that isn't as good?

It is NOT FREE TO YOU!!!! The employer pays 10-15k on YOUR BEHALF.... if they did not have to pay that, it would go to you. NOT FREE.

You really think if the govt. picks up those costs, the employer is going to pass a raise on to the employee??

I agree it's not free...but be realistic...

Maybe I am not using good wording; here is what I mean. I do not pay a dime in premiums -- the company pays all of it. Therefore, in terms of my out-of-pocket expenses for premiums, it is free. Furthermore, my salary is at or above the salary for my position in the metro area. Therefore, in terms of salary, I am not sacrificing anything to get this great insurance.

Now, if I had the option to refuse the insurance and get that $15,000 added to my pay check, I would agree it isn't free and I would be giving up $15,000; however, that is not the case.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: DLeRium

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Really? Tell that to every other civilized nation.

Where is it spelled out in the Constitution? Even more relevant to the argument, why should I have to give up my good insurance plan, which is free to me, to pay for a plan that isn't as good?

It is NOT FREE TO YOU!!!! The employer pays 10-15k on YOUR BEHALF.... if they did not have to pay that, it would go to you. NOT FREE.

You really think if the govt. picks up those costs, the employer is going to pass a raise on to the employee??

I agree it's not free...but be realistic...

Yes. If one company does, they all do to stay competitive.

Besides, if the coverage is the same, what's the difference either way?

it's not a magical 10k raise across the board ok? be realistic for once.

I have tried and tried and tried to explain, but he does not get it. As Engineer says, a company might throw you a bone, but you would have to be REALLY naive to believe that a company is going to come to you and say "Well, we no longer have to pay $10,000/year in insurance. Here you go!"

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Really? Tell that to every other civilized nation.

Where is it spelled out in the Constitution? Even more relevant to the argument, why should I have to give up my good insurance plan, which is free to me, to pay for a plan that isn't as good?

It is NOT FREE TO YOU!!!! The employer pays 10-15k on YOUR BEHALF.... if they did not have to pay that, it would go to you. NOT FREE.

We have been over this OVER AND OVER AND OVER. That insurance is, in fact, free to me in the sense that I do NOT have to pay any premiums. Period. The company pays every dime of it for me. Furthermore, my salary is competitive with salaries in my area. If I went somewhere else for the same salary, I would be bringing home less money because more than likely, I would have to pay some portion of the premiums.

If the employer did NOT offer health insurance, I would not see a $15K salary increase. Don't be dense. It is part of an entire benefits package (salary, insurance, retirement, other perks) which we receive a "total compensation packet" on every year.

Dude, seriously... I'm not sure what you aren't getting about this. Your company has decided to spend X number of dollars on their employees. If they weren't spending it on your health care premiums, you would be compensated in some other way. It doesn't matter if your salary is competitive with other businesses, they aren't YOUR business.

It is not free to you in any way, shape, or form.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Dude, seriously... I'm not sure what you aren't getting about this. Your company has decided to spend X number of dollars on their employees. If they weren't spending it on your health care premiums, you would be compensated in some other way. It doesn't matter if your salary is competitive with other businesses, they aren't YOUR business.

It is not free to you in any way, shape, or form.

I am not sure why you don't get it. You are assuming that if I did not have that insurance, the company would compensate me in another way. Maybe I am wrong and am cynical and they would. However, I think that is a very big assumption on your part. As Engineer said, they might throw you a bone, but you would be really naive to expect you'd see all the money.

At any rate, I would have insurance wherever I went and I won't get a better deal than this, with no premiums to pay, so let's leave it at that.

EDIT: To be clear -- I understand my company is spending $X/check on me. They are going to spend that on insurance for me and if I decline insurance coverage (which I can do), I do not get $X added to my paycheck.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Dude, seriously... I'm not sure what you aren't getting about this. Your company has decided to spend X number of dollars on their employees. If they weren't spending it on your health care premiums, you would be compensated in some other way. It doesn't matter if your salary is competitive with other businesses, they aren't YOUR business.

It is not free to you in any way, shape, or form.

I am not sure why you don't get it. You are assuming that if I did not have that insurance, the company would compensate me in another way. Maybe I am wrong and am cynical and they would. However, I think that is a very big assumption on your part. As Engineer said, they might throw you a bone, but you would be really naive to expect you'd see all the money.

At any rate, I would have insurance wherever I went and I won't get a better deal than this, so let's leave it at that.

Because in the end a well run company doesn't differentiate between a dollar it spends on health care and a dollar it spends on salary. The sole purpose of it is to use those funds to attract the best employee it can for the least money. Now if you really want to get into it you're actually making out a bit better with the health care as benefits aren't taxed like salary is, but that's actually a problem with our system.

Depending on the cost/benefit analysis available to your business you might not see all $15,000, but you most certainly would see a good portion of it. This idea that you have that it is free is simply false. If they really would pay you the same either way, then the company is pissing away $15,000 per year per employee, because obviously they would consider the position as attractive to talent in your area regardless of the status of health benefits.

EDIT: To reflect your edit: that may be true, but I am nearly certain that has a lot more to do with how their health care plan is set up, tax benefits to them from health care exemptions, requirements for enrollment by the HMO, etc.... etc.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Dude, seriously... I'm not sure what you aren't getting about this. Your company has decided to spend X number of dollars on their employees. If they weren't spending it on your health care premiums, you would be compensated in some other way. It doesn't matter if your salary is competitive with other businesses, they aren't YOUR business.

It is not free to you in any way, shape, or form.

I am not sure why you don't get it. You are assuming that if I did not have that insurance, the company would compensate me in another way. Maybe I am wrong and am cynical and they would. However, I think that is a very big assumption on your part. As Engineer said, they might throw you a bone, but you would be really naive to expect you'd see all the money.

At any rate, I would have insurance wherever I went and I won't get a better deal than this, so let's leave it at that.

EDIT: To be clear -- I understand my company is spending $X/check on me. They are going to spend that on insurance for me and if I decline insurance coverage (which I can do), I do not get $X added to my paycheck.

I'll say this...the State of Kentucky offers insurance to it's employees (my wife was lucky enough to get a job this year with the school system). If you decline insurance, you do not get additional pay. You do however get $2,100 in a flexible spending account. They call it an HSA but in reality, it's not as it expires at year end (Dec. 31). So no, don't assume you will get the pay.

I'll also go as far to say that I bet that it costs more than $2,100 for a year's insurance with the school system (employer's part).

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

EDIT: To reflect your edit: that may be true, but I am nearly certain that has a lot more to do with how their health care plan is set up, tax benefits to them from health care exemptions, requirements for enrollment by the HMO, etc.... etc.

That might be, but to me, I am the beneficiary of an awesome plan and I don't have to pay any additional $$ for it out of my pay check. I guess in the end, that is my point. No matter what company I go to, I will take the company insurance and for me, that will never not be an option. I have to take it. I think I am using a poor choice of words, as I do understand the company is paying money on my behalf for the insurance. I should have used the phrase "Zero premiums deducted from my check" or something like that. I'll take the hit on that one.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Dude, seriously... I'm not sure what you aren't getting about this. Your company has decided to spend X number of dollars on their employees. If they weren't spending it on your health care premiums, you would be compensated in some other way. It doesn't matter if your salary is competitive with other businesses, they aren't YOUR business.

It is not free to you in any way, shape, or form.

I am not sure why you don't get it. You are assuming that if I did not have that insurance, the company would compensate me in another way. Maybe I am wrong and am cynical and they would. However, I think that is a very big assumption on your part. As Engineer said, they might throw you a bone, but you would be really naive to expect you'd see all the money.

At any rate, I would have insurance wherever I went and I won't get a better deal than this, so let's leave it at that.

EDIT: To be clear -- I understand my company is spending $X/check on me. They are going to spend that on insurance for me and if I decline insurance coverage (which I can do), I do not get $X added to my paycheck.

I'll say this...the State of Kentucky offers insurance to it's employees (my wife was lucky enough to get a job this year with the school system). If you decline insurance, you do not get additional pay. You do however get $2,100 in a flexible spending account. They call it an HSA but in reality, it's not as it expires at year end (Dec. 31). So no, don't assume you will get the pay.

I'll also go as far to say that I bet that it costs more than $2,100 for a year's insurance with the school system (employer's part).

That is an FSA. FSAs are just blah. HSAs are a lot better, but you must get an High Deductible Health Plan with it.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: Engineer

I'll say this...the State of Kentucky offers insurance to it's employees (my wife was lucky enough to get a job this year with the school system). If you decline insurance, you do not get additional pay. You do however get $2,100 in a flexible spending account. They call it an HSA but in reality, it's not as it expires at year end (Dec. 31). So no, don't assume you will get the pay.

I'll also go as far to say that I bet that it costs more than $2,100 for a year's insurance with the school system (employer's part).

Yeah, it was similar in past companies. At my last company, if you declined insurance, they gave you like $700. They eventually even eliminated that and if you declined, you didn't see anything and of course, every year, the insurance was more costly.

At any rate, I am going to just concede that I used a poor choice of words and leave it at that. I understand my company was paying money on my behalf; I should have just said that I had "no premiums deducted from my paycheck" or something like that.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: Engineer

I'll say this...the State of Kentucky offers insurance to it's employees (my wife was lucky enough to get a job this year with the school system). If you decline insurance, you do not get additional pay. You do however get $2,100 in a flexible spending account. They call it an HSA but in reality, it's not as it expires at year end (Dec. 31). So no, don't assume you will get the pay.

I'll also go as far to say that I bet that it costs more than $2,100 for a year's insurance with the school system (employer's part).

Yeah, it was similar in past companies. At my last company, if you declined insurance, they gave you like $700. They eventually even eliminated that and if you declined, you didn't see anything and of course, every year, the insurance was more costly.

At any rate, I am going to just concede that I used a poor choice of words and leave it at that. I understand my company was paying money on my behalf; I should have just said that I had "no premiums deducted from my paycheck" or something like that.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I personally think that if companies get the chance, they will shift the entire burden of health care to their employees and you will get zero extra compensation for it.

Greed.txt

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Really? Tell that to every other civilized nation.

Where is it spelled out in the Constitution? Even more relevant to the argument, why should I have to give up my good insurance plan, which is free to me, to pay for a plan that isn't as good?

It is NOT FREE TO YOU!!!! The employer pays 10-15k on YOUR BEHALF.... if they did not have to pay that, it would go to you. NOT FREE.

You really think if the govt. picks up those costs, the employer is going to pass a raise on to the employee??

I agree it's not free...but be realistic...

That's pretty much agreed on. Same with HSA's. The employer will NOT pass the money to you. Maybe a little if you're lucky...but most will get zero.

I dont think that is the case with employer provided HSAs. I think most of them are at least partially funded by the employer.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: Engineer

I'll say this...the State of Kentucky offers insurance to it's employees (my wife was lucky enough to get a job this year with the school system). If you decline insurance, you do not get additional pay. You do however get $2,100 in a flexible spending account. They call it an HSA but in reality, it's not as it expires at year end (Dec. 31). So no, don't assume you will get the pay.

I'll also go as far to say that I bet that it costs more than $2,100 for a year's insurance with the school system (employer's part).

Yeah, it was similar in past companies. At my last company, if you declined insurance, they gave you like $700. They eventually even eliminated that and if you declined, you didn't see anything and of course, every year, the insurance was more costly.

At any rate, I am going to just concede that I used a poor choice of words and leave it at that. I understand my company was paying money on my behalf; I should have just said that I had "no premiums deducted from my paycheck" or something like that.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I personally think that if companies get the chance, they will shift the entire burden of health care to their employees and you will get zero extra compensation for it.

Greed.txt

IF they do that, they will not be retaining they people they need.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Really? Tell that to every other civilized nation.

Where is it spelled out in the Constitution? Even more relevant to the argument, why should I have to give up my good insurance plan, which is free to me, to pay for a plan that isn't as good?

It is NOT FREE TO YOU!!!! The employer pays 10-15k on YOUR BEHALF.... if they did not have to pay that, it would go to you. NOT FREE.

You really think if the govt. picks up those costs, the employer is going to pass a raise on to the employee??

I agree it's not free...but be realistic...

That's pretty much agreed on. Same with HSA's. The employer will NOT pass the money to you. Maybe a little if you're lucky...but most will get zero.

I dont think that is the case with employer provided HSAs. I think most of them are at least partially funded by the employer.

Some may indeed find part of it, but with an IRS limit of $5,000 per year, and considering that the average family plan costs most employers over $12,000 per year, $7,000 will be going back to the employer. Like I said, you can say most but have no data (nor do I for that matter) to back it up, but the only data that I have is that my company does ZERO match, and I would bet that it's not alone.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: charrison

IF they do that, they will not be retaining they people they need.

Again, if more and more companies do this, what is the employee to do? Not work? I would bet that the same argument was used 25 years ago on the pensions and moving people to self funded pensions (401k's) and look where we are today. The shift will be the same to HSA's and more and more companies will do it and matches will be smaller and smaller, if at all.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Really? Tell that to every other civilized nation.

Where is it spelled out in the Constitution? Even more relevant to the argument, why should I have to give up my good insurance plan, which is free to me, to pay for a plan that isn't as good?

It is NOT FREE TO YOU!!!! The employer pays 10-15k on YOUR BEHALF.... if they did not have to pay that, it would go to you. NOT FREE.

You really think if the govt. picks up those costs, the employer is going to pass a raise on to the employee??

I agree it's not free...but be realistic...

That's pretty much agreed on. Same with HSA's. The employer will NOT pass the money to you. Maybe a little if you're lucky...but most will get zero.

I dont think that is the case with employer provided HSAs. I think most of them are at least partially funded by the employer.

Some may indeed find part of it, but with an IRS limit of $5,000 per year, and considering that the average family plan costs most employers over $12,000 per year, $7,000 will be going back to the employer. Like I said, you can say most but have no data (nor do I for that matter) to back it up, but the only data that I have is that my company does ZERO match, and I would bet that it's not alone.

The data does however show that HSA account balances are growing year on year. That tells me one way or another the hsa accounts are getting adequate annual funding.

I am pretty sure I would be better off if my employer paid for the high deductible insurance premiums and let my current premiums go into a hSA.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: charrison

IF they do that, they will not be retaining they people they need.

Again, if more and more companies do this, what is the employee to do? Not work? I would bet that the same argument was used 25 years ago on the pensions and moving people to self funded pensions (401k's) and look where we are today. The shift will be the same to HSA's and more and more companies will do it and matches will be smaller and smaller, if at all.

Pensions dont work as most people do not stay at one job for a lifetime, so 401k do make sense in the respect.

As far as employer provided bennies some companies do better some do worse. The ones that want to retain people will always do better. THis has always been the case and I dont expect that to change.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: charrison


I am pretty sure I would be better off if my employer paid for the high deductible insurance premiums and let my current premiums go into a hSA.

And if your employer does neither? I've stated that not only does my employer not fund any part of the HSA, it still charges premiums for the high deductible insurance plan. Again, I'm sure that my company isn't the only one doing so.

If companies get the chance to shift employer insurance to employee self insurance (as in pensions), it WILL happen. Already started just like pensions.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: charrison

IF they do that, they will not be retaining they people they need.

Again, if more and more companies do this, what is the employee to do? Not work? I would bet that the same argument was used 25 years ago on the pensions and moving people to self funded pensions (401k's) and look where we are today. The shift will be the same to HSA's and more and more companies will do it and matches will be smaller and smaller, if at all.

Pensions dont work as most people do not stay at one job for a lifetime, so 401k do make sense in the respect.

As far as employer provided bennies some companies do better some do worse. The ones that want to retain people will always do better. THis has always been the case and I dont expect that to change.

My opinion differs on the subject of HSA's.

As for pensions don't work because people change jobs, the same could be said that the HSA can go with you as you change jobs. I see the same parallel process occuring with the HSA very slowly over time.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: DLeRium
Simple question:

- We know costs are rising.
- There's a growing concern of the uninsured.

What do we do to control this if it's not by implementing UHC?

Tort reform is a good start but Obama is sponsored by the trial lawyers so I guess we wont see that.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

The current proposal's included fine for employers who do not provide health insurance options -- 8% of payroll -- will eat into much of the difference on per-employee expenditures, so what will be left to pass on to employees?

Answer: next to nothing; and, in many cases, nothing.