This whole R600/G80 benchmarks thing is nonsense.

[Matt2]

Oh noes! Not the shimmering debate again!

For all you ATI fanboys who still cling to this, using HQ + LOD Clamp makes shimmering go bye bye.

Yes there is a performance hit, but the shimmering on Nvidia cards is something that can easily be fixed.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: Matt2
Oh noes! Not the shimmering debate again!

For all you ATI fanboys who still cling to this, using Quality + LOD Clamp makes shimmering go bye bye.

Yes there is a performance hit, but the shimmering on Nvidia cards is something that can easily be fixed.

They are desperate and despressed because of R600. Cut them some slack. And yeah, exactly what you said re: shimmering (turning off all opts helps even more and if you want to be totally sure use HQ mode). End of debate.

 

[aka1nas]

Originally posted by: Matt2
Oh noes! Not the shimmering debate again!

For all you ATI fanboys who still cling to this, using Quality + LOD Clamp makes shimmering go bye bye.

Yes there is a performance hit, but the shimmering on Nvidia cards is something that can easily be fixed.

FWIW, I had shimmering on both my 6800 and my X1900. In the latter case, the only way to completely resolve it was to us Adaptive AA, which was usually too slow.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: aka1nas

Originally posted by: Matt2
Oh noes! Not the shimmering debate again!

For all you ATI fanboys who still cling to this, using Quality + LOD Clamp makes shimmering go bye bye.

Yes there is a performance hit, but the shimmering on Nvidia cards is something that can easily be fixed.

FWIW, I had shimmering on both my 6800 and my X1900. In the latter case, the only way to completely resolve it was to us Adaptive AA, which was usually too slow.

Yes, the fanatics always somehow fail to mention that ATi cards ***ALSO*** shimmer, and unlike nvidia ***NO FIX IS PROVIDED!!!***

 

[aka1nas]

To be fair, it was much more pronounced on the 6800. On the X1900, it was mostly showing up in X3, where you are often viewing space station models from relatively large distances. I think all the details on the stations were throwing off the AA algorithms when viewed at that scale as it was much better up close. Most Shooters and RTSs don't deal with that kind of scale and it seems like more modern hardware is able better deal with the shimmering effect in those types of games.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: aka1nas

Originally posted by: Matt2
Oh noes! Not the shimmering debate again!

For all you ATI fanboys who still cling to this, using Quality + LOD Clamp makes shimmering go bye bye.

Yes there is a performance hit, but the shimmering on Nvidia cards is something that can easily be fixed.

FWIW, I had shimmering on both my 6800 and my X1900. In the latter case, the only way to completely resolve it was to us Adaptive AA, which was usually too slow.

Yes, the fanatics always somehow fail to mention that ATi cards ***ALSO*** shimmer, and unlike nvidia ***NO FIX IS PROVIDED!!!***

i think i covered that

... but then you would consider me a "has been" former fanatic
--i guess

TO BE FAIR my x1950p does it only very occasionally ... and in specific games and 'places' ... and usually the next driver revision [next month] clears it up

the earlier nvidia drivers evidently DID have some annoying shimmer - often you had to choose between a performance hit or shimmer
... but by the time i got my 7800GS - in January ... it was about as evident as it is on my x1950p now
--not at all annoying and rarely even noticed

 

[Gstanfor]

I've never found the shimmer to be annoying on nv40 or G7x myself, but then again I pretty much consider 8xS to be my minimum AA mode (unless the game doesn't support AA at all).

 

[Matt2]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I've never found the shimmer to be annoying on nv40 or G7x myself, but then again I pretty much consider 8xS to be my minimum AA mode (unless the game doesn't support AA at all).

You know, I never noticed it much on my 7800GT SLi setup either. The only game that it was so bad that I couldnt stand it was CSS. That's when I "discovered" the LOD Clamp fix and that cleared it up 100% with minimal performance hit.

 

[BFG10K]

I've never played more than the first couple of levels of Halo, don't like the game and certainly don't recall making any such comment.

When I told you where to replicate it you claimed to have tried that level and didn't see any problems. So you're either lying now or were lying back then.

using Quality + LOD Clamp makes shimmering go bye bye.

Uh no, it doesn't. You need to use HQ (which disables all optimizations) + LOD clamp. Simply enabling LOD clamp often does nothing since in most cases the problem isn't the game using a negative LOD.

Yes there is a performance hit,

Something that was conveniently left out in the past. Even when we had figures showing 20%-30% we still had nVidia trolls claiming it was less than 5% and therefore a "non issue". :roll:

They are desperate and despressed because of R600.

ROFL, and how would you describe your anti-ATi antics? Does the R600 make you so insecure you have to go look at a "dog's d***"?

In the latter case, the only way to completely resolve it was to us Adaptive AA, which was usually too slow.

If you're talking about AAA then you're not talking the shimmering issue that everyone else is talking about. Alpha aliasing is something every card will have because MSAA can't touch it.

Yes, the fanatics always somehow fail to mention that ATi cards ***ALSO*** shimmer, and unlike nvidia ***NO FIX IS PROVIDED!!!***

If my X800 XL ever shimmered it was extremely marginal and extremely rare, well within the bounds of acceptability. Even when I enabled AF and trilinear optimizations it was rare for me to see it shimmer (much like the 6800 Ultra I had before it).

Now the 7800 GT and 7900 GTX were total eye sores at default settings. nVidia definitely did something to the G7x series that made default settings unacceptable.

 

[Matt2]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

using Quality + LOD Clamp makes shimmering go bye bye.

Uh no, it doesn't. You need to use HQ (which disables all optimizations) + LOD clamp. Simply enabling LOD clamp often does nothing since in most cases the problem isn't the game using a negative LOD.

Yes, yes, I realize that. I actually edited that post before you replied.

It's been a long time since my 7800GT SLi setup and I forgot Quality was the default setting.

 

[Gstanfor]

If my X800 XL ever shimmered it was extremely marginal and extremely rare, well within the bounds of acceptability. Even when I enabled AF and trilinear optimizations it was rare for me to see it shimmer (much like the 6800 Ultra I had before it).

Now the 7800 GT and 7900 GTX were total eye sores at default settings. nVidia definitely did something to the G7x series that made default settings unacceptable.

The IQ between nv4x an g7x is precisely the same so far as I can see. There is no difference.

Like I said with Halo I've never played past the 2nd level. Not my sort of game. I did briefly fire up the level you talked about and could see no significant amount of shimmer.

quote:
They are desperate and despressed because of R600.


ROFL, and how would you describe your anti-ATi antics? Does the R600 make you so insecure you have to go look at a "dog's d***"?

Why, that would be telling the (unpleasnat and unwelcome to some) truth, BFG10K. I can guarantee that if the flaw I pointed out had been on nvidia hardware instead of ati hardware you and the rest of the fanatics would have been all over it and dragging into every thread you possibly could as a way of putting nvidia down.

 

[aka1nas]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

In the latter case, the only way to completely resolve it was to us Adaptive AA, which was usually too slow.

If you're talking about AAA then you're not talking the shimmering issue that everyone else is talking about. Alpha aliasing is something every card will have because MSAA can't touch it.

I agree, my issue is seperate from the HL2/Source shimmering. The issue in X3 occured with the 6800 also, but was not resolvable at all. AAA drastically minimizes it on the X1900, but takes too big of a performance hit to be playable.

 

[BFG10K]

The IQ between nv4x an g7x is precisely the same so far as I can see. There is no difference.

Like I said with Halo I've never played past the 2nd level. Not my sort of game. I did briefly fire up the level you talked about and could see no significant amount of shimmer.

So you can't see shimmering over a large body of moving water in-game yet you have no trouble seeing a problematic chain-link in a still ATi screenshot ("dog's d***")?

Like I said, selective vision :- perfect when detecting ATi artifacts but blind as a bat for nVidia artifacts.

I've owned 9700 Pro, X800 XL, 6800 Ultra, 7800 GTS and 7900 GTX cards and it's painfully obvious the 7xxx cards had vastly inferior image quality at default settings than the rest of them. I could spot it immediately in a wide range of games.

 

[Lord Banshee]

Not sure if this was posted yet but here are some tech slides

http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=148492

 

[BFG10K]

I can guarantee that if the flaw I pointed out had been on nvidia hardware instead of ati hardware you and the rest of the fanatics would have been all over it and dragging into every thread you possibly could as a way of putting nvidia down.

And you'd be right here denying the issue just like you're denying the 7xxx series ever had a problem, even while multiple reviewers with video clips of in-game footage prove how wrong you are.

And where are these fanatics you speak of? I don't see anyone defending the artifact you pointed out.

All I see is you trolling, denying nVidia problems and ignoring the Red Faction artifacts that make the game unplayable while taking issue with an ATi chain-link.

 

[Gstanfor]

So you can't see shimmering over a large body of moving water in-game yet you have no trouble seeing a problematic chain-link in a still ATi screenshot ("dog's d***")?

anyone who can't spot such an incorrectly rendered polygon is in dire need of corrective eye surgery.

 

[BFG10K]

anyone who can't spot such an incorrectly rendered polygon is in dire need of corrective eye surgery.

The surgery to tint your eyes green you mean?

 

[josh6079]

Gstanfor, is this little "dog's d***" (honestly, an ink-blot session with you would be interesting. Why a "dog's d***" was the first thing to pop into your head I don't want to know) of a rendering error the only thing you can dig up as pre-evidence of the R600's IQ?

If so, I'd have to say that I'd rather have small errors invisible to the naked eye and only traceable when zoomed in on a static image than a constant fog that hazes up anything I look at past the muzzle of my gun.

And since when did you become an acceptable contributer to discussing 3D graphic image quality? Shouldn't you practice counting colored rings?

 

[josh6079]

sure ... i have 2 million bookmarks all organized into instant access

:roll:

Why the sarcasm? I didn't ask for 2 million links, just one. If you don't have it, it's no problem. Just thought I'd ask since I had never thought that still images could reveal shimmering.

if you like, i could spend the next six months looking for a photo for you

Such devotion.

:heart:

The sad part is, I actually believe you would do something like that. I know you wouldn't let a topic (whatever topic it be) fade away. It's just not your style.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
All I see is you trolling, denying nVidia problems and ignoring the Red Faction artifacts that make the game unplayable while taking issue with an ATi chain-link.

ZOMG!!!! artifacts in 'Red Faction'!?!?!?!?!?! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

now we just need ben to come rant about ati cards not being able to run 'Sacrifice'...

talk about your thread derailments :roll:

 

[Gstanfor]

Gstanfor, is this little "dog's d***" (honestly, an ink-blot session with you would be interesting. Why a "dog's d***" was the first thing to pop into your head I don't want to know)

Its a common Australian colloquialsim, used when emphasizing things or situations stand out from the norm.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: BFG10K
All I see is you trolling, denying nVidia problems and ignoring the Red Faction artifacts that make the game unplayable while taking issue with an ATi chain-link.

ZOMG!!!! artifacts in 'Red Faction'!?!?!?!?!?! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

now we just need ben to come rant about ati cards not being able to run 'Sacrifice'...

talk about your thread derailments :roll:

What else would you expect from BFG10K?

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: josh6079
Just thought I'd ask since I had never thought that still images could reveal shimmering.

They can if you know what to look for, but it's definitely more noticeable in motion. In static images shimmering can be seen as moire patterns on textures viewed at an angle. Another way to spot shimmer is in a texture with a thin bright line over a dark background. Often in the smaller LOD texture the line will not appear a solid color but rather have alternating dark and light stripes.

 

[Cookie Monster]

? Why has the talk about shimmering just pop out of the blue?

Anyway i think its been confirmed that ATI's HQ AF is now the default setting for AF, while theres a newer mode for HQ AF. The New HQ AF i believe is the current HQ AF without the 45 degree limitation as seen by the AF tester. (so it will be like the G80 AF where its closer to being a circle)

 

[Gstanfor]

? Why has the talk about shimmering just pop out of the blue?

BFG10K in troll mode.

Its a good thing ATi is finally (supposedly) going to impliment decent AF, given they were the ones who cheapened it with R200 and bilinear rather than trilinear texture stages samples, and we consumers have had to live with the fallout ever since.