This tweet encapsulates whats wrong with the Democratic and Republican parties

[zinfamous]

Show me where Bernie said there should not be qualifications to get into college.

See, it's something Bernie never addressed, therefor we are allowed to decide his opinion on the matter.

 

[Maxima1]

It would be $80 billion if the rates stayed the same. Only a fool would think that "free" college would not get far more going into college.

Not anymore than CA's almost free community colleges (which are free for the poors) and heavily subsidized public universities. Don't buy the argument, and it means squat anyways. Just make bigger classes, push credit examinations and more online classes, which even public colleges are doing.

It also assumes that the tuition would not go up, which is also dumb because every time the government gives out more money the cost also goes up.

There is more and more online material and courses designed for online environment. That makes teachers more and more obsolete, so don't buy this either. More importantly, free college isn't mutually exclusive with other reforms. Stop acting like nothing else in the education system can change.

Also, Bernie wants to stop the government from making money off the loans, so the revenue side would also go down. Spending up, revenue down.

So? The financial sector is arguably largely useless. Many other service sector jobs arguably provide little to society or enable rent-seeking behavior. Again, we're talking chump change, and it just means more money was spent in the private sector. .

As I said before the US system is shitty.

In regards to academics, US comparisons to rest of world are misleading because of inclusion of Latinos and blacks. In regards to vocational tracks, not like corps or conservatives want to do **** about it.

I am referring to the standards of what is required for a US citizen to get access to free German education. A US student must have a 3.0 or higher. The internal standards for those whom are German are just as high, but they have a different system, which is why I said equivalent.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admi...table-increase-grades-high-schools-nationally

"Here, the authors find that the proportion of students with A averages (including A-minus and A-plus) increased from 38.9 percent of the graduating class of 1998 to 47 percent of the graduating class of 2016. Those gains came from the B and C ranges."

 

[realibrad]

Not anymore than CA's almost free community colleges (which are free for the poors) and heavily subsidized public universities. Don't buy the argument, and it means squat anyways. Just make bigger classes, push credit examinations and more online classes, which even public colleges are doing.



There is more and more online material and courses designed for online environment. That makes teachers more and more obsolete, so don't buy this either. More importantly, free college isn't mutually exclusive with other reforms. Stop acting like nothing else in the education system can change.



So? The financial sector is arguably largely useless. Many other service sector jobs arguably provide little to society or enable rent-seeking behavior. Again, we're talking chump change, and it just means more money was spent in the private sector. .



In regards to academics, US comparisons to rest of world are misleading because of inclusion of Latinos and blacks. In regards to vocational tracks, not like corps or conservatives want to do **** about it.



https://www.insidehighered.com/admi...table-increase-grades-high-schools-nationally

"Here, the authors find that the proportion of students with A averages (including A-minus and A-plus) increased from 38.9 percent of the graduating class of 1998 to 47 percent of the graduating class of 2016. Those gains came from the B and C ranges."

You have lost your narrative. Bernie wanted something that nowhere else in the world has. You clearly forgot your original statement of "Well, that makes no sense, since single payer and free tuition at the undergraduate level is already implemented elsewhere" which is untrue. In no other country in the world offers what Bernie was offering, which is free college to the entire population. Other countries have free college for a select group. Bernie wanted to offer it to anyone at the community college level. Unless you can show me another country that has that, then you are wrong.

 

[Maxima1]

You have lost your narrative. Bernie wanted something that nowhere else in the world has. You clearly forgot your original statement of "Well, that makes no sense, since single payer and free tuition at the undergraduate level is already implemented elsewhere" which is untrue. In no other country in the world offers what Bernie was offering, which is free college to the entire population. Other countries have free college for a select group. Bernie wanted to offer it to anyone at the community college level. Unless you can show me another country that has that, then you are wrong.

As I just showed, 3.0 GPA or above is about half of the US high school graduates. So what was your point? Saying everyone is going to go to go to university is just pure BS. Many already can go basically for free here, yet don't.

Moreover, it's disingenuous to count all of the community college students, since quite a few of those programs are basically an analog to Germany's vocational track, though not as robust. First two years of university are basically community college, and community college classes aren't necessarily easier than university. Since people go to the flagship universities (the UCs here in CA) via the community colleges, a lot of the classes have a difficulty somewhere between state university and the more selective universities.

One other thing I noticed is that Germany appears to be concerned about the cost of education, yet they offer free college. So your other point that the US won't look for ways to lower costs if offering free college isn't necessarily true.

 

[realibrad]

As I just showed, 3.0 GPA or above is about half of the US high school graduates. So what was your point? Saying everyone is going to go to go to university is just pure BS. Many already can go basically for free here, yet don't.

Moreover, it's disingenuous to count all of the community college students, since quite a few of those programs are basically an analog to Germany's vocational track, though not as robust. First two years of university are basically community college, and community college classes aren't necessarily easier than university. Since people go to the flagship universities (the UCs here in CA) via the community colleges, a lot of the classes have a difficulty somewhere between state university and the more selective universities.

One other thing I noticed is that Germany appears to be concerned about the cost of education, yet they offer free college. So your other point that the US won't look for ways to lower costs if offering free college isn't necessarily true.

You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

Germany has more than a 3.0 GPA standard. You are also getting yourself distracted by that number because you clearly did not understand the context, so forget it and focus on what is next.

Bernie wanted to offer community and 4 year college for free. Community college would have been free for everyone that wanted it, and it is far more than a vocational track. He also wanted to make 4 year state college free for 80% of the population. No other country has that level of free college, not by a long shot.

So, show me any country that offers that level, and we can talk. You cant because it does not exist in a developed nation that is relevant. That is because any country that offers "free" or even "paid" college does so by limiting the people that can go through eligibility. Far less than 80% of the people in those countries would be able to get free college. Feel free to do the research.

 

[Maxima1]

You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

Germany has more than a 3.0 GPA standard. You are also getting yourself distracted by that number because you clearly did not understand the context, so forget it and focus on what is next.

You used the 3.0 GPA requirement for international students as a point. I was pointing out that it includes about half of the US. If you want to elaborate further, then do so instead of feigning as if I didn't understand.

Bernie wanted to offer community and 4 year college for free. Community college would have been free for everyone that wanted it, and it is far more than a vocational track. He also wanted to make 4 year state college free for 80% of the population. No other country has that level of free college, not by a long shot.

The whole argument is disingenuous. Not only because community colleges act as a analog to Germany vocational track, so it's disingenuous to include them all (and increasing more trades require a degree to be considered here), but because of the state/federal governments and companies in the US not wanting to foot the bill.

https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...o-much-better-at-training-its-workers/381550/

"So where’s the rub? Why is it likely to be hard for Americans to transplant the German model? It starts with cost. Each German company has a different way of calculating the bill, but the figures range from $25,000 per apprentice to more than $80,000. It’s likely to be more expensive still in the U.S., where firms will have to build programs from scratch, pay school tuition (in Germany, the state pays), and in many cases funnel money into local high schools and community colleges to transform them into effective training partners."

So, show me any country that offers that level, and we can talk. You cant because it does not exist in a developed nation that is relevant. That is because any country that offers "free" or even "paid" college does so by limiting the people that can go through eligibility. Far less than 80% of the people in those countries would be able to get free college. Feel free to do the research.

Denmark not only has free college but it pays students to go.

Also, what is your response to the fact that a lot of the economy, especially in service sector has questionable value (see below link for example)? In the grand scheme of things, it's hilarious to ***** about an $80 billion dollar increase in higher education (which would largely be paid for anyways). Never mind your argument seems to largely be that you just want whatever is perfect in your mind, despite reforms in education not being mutually exclusive to subsidized/free education.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/steved...-the-economy-2-of-gdp-each-year/#3674a8524cd1

 

[realibrad]

You used the 3.0 GPA requirement for international students as a point. I was pointing out that it includes about half of the US. If you want to elaborate further, then do so instead of feigning as if I didn't understand.

Let me say it again, because, you memory has failed you and somehow you are unable to go back and reread it.

"If you are a US student you need to past their entrance test, taken specific classes, as well as held a 3.0 or higher GPA. "

See that? It was one part of a set of requirements. You may need to read that a few more times to get it to stick.

The whole argument is disingenuous. Not only because community colleges act as a analog to Germany vocational track, so it's disingenuous to include them all (and increasing more trades require a degree to be considered here), but because of the state/federal governments and companies in the US not wanting to foot the bill.

https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...o-much-better-at-training-its-workers/381550/

"So where’s the rub? Why is it likely to be hard for Americans to transplant the German model? It starts with cost. Each German company has a different way of calculating the bill, but the figures range from $25,000 per apprentice to more than $80,000. It’s likely to be more expensive still in the U.S., where firms will have to build programs from scratch, pay school tuition (in Germany, the state pays), and in many cases funnel money into local high schools and community colleges to transform them into effective training partners."

Why did you post this part? I say that not only did Bernie want to offer free community college, he also wanted to make 4 year degrees free for 80% of the population which no other country has. I see no relation to what you just posted, so please do explain.

Denmark not only has free college but it pays students to go.

Yes I know, which is why you will see me using the word "paid". I used that word because I know the same thing you posted and it has no real importance here for the reasons listed just after that word. Again, you should read what I said. I'll even post it again for you to make it easy.

"That is because any country that offers "free" or even "paid" college does so by limiting the people that can go through eligibility. Far less than 80% of the people in those countries would be able to get free college. Feel free to do the research."

Also, what is your response to the fact that a lot of the economy, especially in service sector has questionable value (see below link for example)? In the grand scheme of things, it's hilarious to ***** about an $80 billion dollar increase in higher education (which would largely be paid for anyways). Never mind your argument seems to largely be that you just want whatever is perfect in your mind, despite reforms in education not being mutually exclusive to subsidized/free education.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/steved...-the-economy-2-of-gdp-each-year/#3674a8524cd1

You seem to be having trouble keeping up, so ill try bullet form it for you.

• Any country that offers "free" or "paid" college limits eligibility to far less than 80% of its people.
• $80 billion is what it would currently cost with Bernie's plan and does not take into account the influx of students into the system that would happen.
• My position is that the US system is shitty but Bernie's plan would be far too expensive as is.

 

[Maxima1]

Let me say it again, because, you memory has failed you and somehow you are unable to go back and reread it.

"If you are a US student you need to past their entrance test, taken specific classes, as well as held a 3.0 or higher GPA. "

See that? It was one part of a set of requirements. You may need to read that a few more times to get it to stick.

You were touting it as if it was some big point. Can you tell me more about the entrance exam? Public university will have a cutoff for freshman coming in otherwise it's the community college route with agreements between the university and the college they're transferring from. I doubt Germany's entrance exams are that difficult when they do not have one of the highest completion rates.

"I am referring to the standards of what is required for a US citizen to get access to free German education. A US student must have a 3.0 or higher."

Why did you post this part? I say that not only did Bernie want to offer free community college, he also wanted to make 4 year degrees free for 80% of the population which no other country has. I see no relation to what you just posted, so please do explain.

Because you act as if vocational tracks for Germany shouldn't count, yet their companies and government are there to help make it possible. And as I've said, a portion of community college degrees here are NOT just academics; it can lead to some of the same vocational tracks as Germany that you want to exclude from Germany's numbers. Many like culinary arts and HVAC = college here and not trade schooling.

Yes I know, which is why you will see me using the word "paid". I used that word because I know the same thing you posted and it has no real importance here for the reasons listed just after that word. Again, you should read what I said. I'll even post it again for you to make it easy.

"That is because any country that offers "free" or even "paid" college does so by limiting the people that can go through eligibility. Far less than 80% of the people in those countries would be able to get free college. Feel free to do the research."

No, you're just being disingenuous. Denmark has about ~60% going for university-level education according to the rate of completion. Then we also need to add the vocational schools there, which will bring up the amount even more.

You seem to be having trouble keeping up, so ill try bullet form it for you.

• Any country that offers "free" or "paid" college limits eligibility to far less than 80% of its people.

Why do you always only count university-level?

• $80 billion is what it would currently cost with Bernie's plan and does not take into account the influx of students into the system that would happen.

The horror! Bernie giving everyone free technical training and college education.

BS: Career and Technical Education programs are vital pathways to middle-class, family-supporting jobs. I believe it is in our national and economic interest to ensure quality CTE programs are available to every American, and effectively aligned with the needs of the 21st century workforce. Accordingly, I strongly support fully-funding the Perkins CTE program. In addition, if elected, I would work to revolutionize our nation’s approach to workforce development and technical education to build effective, attainable pathways for young people to pursue middle-class careers.

• My position is that the US system is shitty but Bernie's plan would be far too expensive as is.

I guess Christmas is too expensive. lmao

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/26/news/retail-returns-landfill/index.html

 

[realibrad]

You were touting it as if it was some big point. Can you tell me more about the entrance exam? Public university will have a cutoff for freshman coming in otherwise it's the community college route with agreements between the university and the college they're transferring from. I doubt Germany's entrance exams are that difficult when they do not have one of the highest completion rates.

"I am referring to the standards of what is required for a US citizen to get access to free German education. A US student must have a 3.0 or higher."



Because you act as if vocational tracks for Germany shouldn't count, yet their companies and government are there to help make it possible. And as I've said, a portion of community college degrees here are NOT just academics; it can lead to some of the same vocational tracks as Germany that you want to exclude from Germany's numbers. Many like culinary arts and HVAC = college here and not trade schooling.



No, you're just being disingenuous. Denmark has about ~60% going for university-level education according to the rate of completion. Then we also need to add the vocational schools there, which will bring up the amount even more.


Why do you always only count university-level?
The horror! Bernie giving everyone free technical training and college education.

BS: Career and Technical Education programs are vital pathways to middle-class, family-supporting jobs. I believe it is in our national and economic interest to ensure quality CTE programs are available to every American, and effectively aligned with the needs of the 21st century workforce. Accordingly, I strongly support fully-funding the Perkins CTE program. In addition, if elected, I would work to revolutionize our nation’s approach to workforce development and technical education to build effective, attainable pathways for young people to pursue middle-class careers.


I guess Christmas is too expensive. lmao

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/26/news/retail-returns-landfill/index.html

You have lost the plot and this has lost my interest.

 

[Maxima1]

You have lost the plot and this has lost my interest.

Why don't you just admit that you were wrong?

https://www.oecd.org/edu/Denmark_EAG2013 Country Note.pdf

"One in two young Danes is expected to graduate from a theory -based tertiary education While 27% of 25- 64 year-olds in Denmark have attained a tertiary type A education (
i.e. more theoretical programmes at bachelor or master level), it is estimated that 50% of today ’s young people will graduate from such a programme."

* This excludes Tertiary-type B (vocational)