This sux.. cpu's are no faster now than well.. ages ago!

BDSM

Senior member
Jun 6, 2001
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Yeah.. p4's are getting to maybe 3,5 ghz and athlons to around 2,5 ghz max.. It feels like the cpu market hasn't moved at all in the last six months.. Sure the athlon64's are a tiny bit faster but nothing groundbreaking.. plus they cost a fortune.

I bet if I get a new fx 51 and oc it as much as possible (around 2.4 ghz is max from what I've been able to gather) I wouldn't notice much of a difference from my t-bred b @ 2540 mhz in games .. and the fx setup would cost me around 1500 bucks here in sweden (yeah it's expensive here).. and my current setup is over nine months old and only cost me around 320 dollars... and would cost even less now

So.. I figure this sux bad.. Anyone agree?
 

Ronin

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Mar 3, 2001
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The A64's are going up to 2.8GHz, so there's a bit more room than you'd think. P4's are going up to the mid 4.4GHz range, so again, you're a little off. Granted, some of these aren't air cooled, but still...
 

Soulkeeper

Diamond Member
Nov 23, 2001
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yeah i can't help but think my P4 is slow too

i'm ready for 10ghz and like 20gb/s mem bandwidth


hahahahaha
 

hominid skull

Senior member
Nov 13, 1999
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AMD are in the process of changing to a new architecture, the AMD 64/Opteron CPU's. And Intel are also moving to a new process for the prescot version of the P4.

Both of these things takes time, when both companies have sorted out the yealds with either transition then they will be bumping up the core speeds.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
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It should also be noted that clock frequency does not mean the chip is faster. The A64 3200 slaps the AXP 3200 all over the place. I'd rather have a faster performing processor with a lower clock speed then a slower processor with a high clock speeds. Remember the days of the Tbird Athlons and the Willamette P4s?
 

lookouthere

Senior member
May 23, 2003
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CPU designing is longer. It takes about 3 to 5 years to have a new design. While GPU( graphic proccessor) is much faster. They takes about half a year to a year to have a new design.
 

Richdog

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Feb 10, 2003
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Originally posted by: BDSM
Yeah.. p4's are getting to maybe 3,5 ghz and athlons to around 2,5 ghz max.. It feels like the cpu market hasn't moved at all in the last six months.. Sure the athlon64's are a tiny bit faster but nothing groundbreaking.. plus they cost a fortune.

I know exactly what you mean. Having a T-Bred or Barton @ 2200Mhz+ will be enough to last you two years in my opinion. The latest games are more GPU dependant than anything else, and as long as you have a beefy CPU now, your graphics card is going to be the only thing you need to upgrade in a long while. In my opinion, buying a A64 now is a complete waste of money considering the moderate performance boost youre getting. I'll be definately getting one myself, but in around 1-2 years time when the process matured and we're seeing some killer clock speeds, not to mention decent motherboards like the ones ABIT are bound to release. It will be worth it. Just not yet...:beer:
 

pelikan

Diamond Member
Dec 28, 2002
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Have you guys tried running Halo with max detail? I know I could use more cpu power.
 

BDSM

Senior member
Jun 6, 2001
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RoninC.. I was ofcourse not thinking of super cooling... An athlon xp could ofcourse be super cooled as well and I've seen bartons at 3 ghz+.. so an A64 @ 2.8 ghz don't impress me much.
So.. I'm not off at all.

Bateluer.. I don't agree at all that an A64 3200+ slaps an XP3200+ around. The performance advantage is +13% @ bizniz apps, +12% @ content creation, maybe 25% better on games on average, +9% on divx encoding, +5-40% on rendering.. That's about 17% better (scores taken from anandtech and various other sites.) on average and that is hardly what I consider to be slapping around!.. Slapping around would be at LEAST 50% better across the board on cpu limited benches and alot more in some cases.

Also let's not forget the huge price difference. Even a regular A64 (non fx) easily cost more than An Athlon XP 2400+, good solid, tried nf2 ultra mobo, 1 gig of twinmos ram, and a thermalright slk900U plus a great papst fan!.. Such a setup is almost guaranteed to give you 2.4 ghz or more... many are reporting 2.6 ghz at pretty moderate voltages on the latest steppings!
If you are an enthusiast and overclocker, (like most ppl on here are, me included) the choice would be quite easy.. for most of us anyway.

In either case.. if you play games at 1280*1024 or even more so if you play at 1600*1200 you will be gpu limited anyway.. just like richdog says!.. So.. you will be left with a little better 3d rendering but who cares at that price?
 

chsh1ca

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2003
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Originally posted by: BDSM
RoninC.. I was ofcourse not thinking of super cooling... An athlon xp could ofcourse be super cooled as well and I've seen bartons at 3 ghz+.. so an A64 @ 2.8 ghz don't impress me much.
Clock Speed != performance. If it was, a PIII/1133 wouldn't be significantly faster than a P4 1.4GHz..

Bateluer.. I don't agree at all that an A64 3200+ slaps an XP3200+ around. The performance advantage is +13% @ bizniz apps, +12% @ content creation, maybe 25% better on games on average, +9% on divx encoding, +5-40% on rendering.. That's about 17% better (scores taken from anandtech and various other sites.) on average and that is hardly what I consider to be slapping around!.. Slapping around would be at LEAST 50% better across the board on cpu limited benches and alot more in some cases.
I doubt you will ever see one generation's intro processor beat its previous generation's fastest processor by a performance margin of 50%. I don't think this has ever happened, nor is it likely to.

Also let's not forget the huge price difference. Even a regular A64 (non fx) easily cost more than An Athlon XP 2400+, good solid, tried nf2 ultra mobo, 1 gig of twinmos ram, and a thermalright slk900U plus a great papst fan!.. Such a setup is almost guaranteed to give you 2.4 ghz or more... many are reporting 2.6 ghz at pretty moderate voltages on the latest steppings!
You're comparing a Stock processor with an overclocked significantly cheaper processor and calling the comparison equal? LMAO, where's my "Please don't feed the trolls!" sign when I need it. If you have no use for the Athlon-64 that is one thing. Making nonsensical comparisons for the purposes of backing up what you are saying is another thing entirely.
You obviously don't have much O/C experience, since no OCer worth his/her salt would go and make the rather outrageous claim that overclocking can be 'guaranteed' or even 'almost guaranteed'.
 

BDSM

Senior member
Jun 6, 2001
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chsh1ca.. Well hello to you too mr stupid.

I'm very well aware that clockspeed isn't the only factor that determines the performance of a pc pcrocessor. I wouldn't have an AMD rig if I didn't now would I?!!! Duh!

To put it very simply so that you may understand what I was trying to say:

I'm saying that for the price the A64 doesn't impress me much,that it isn't much value for us enthusiasts because @ max overclock it won't really perform significantly better than a cpu that you can find for eight times less @ max overclock. And I didn't say the comparison was equal either as far as I know.

I state very clearly that I am talking about enthusiasts and overclockers so how could overclocking be nonsensical??? .. Can't you read?

There!

Most of us are aware that the A64 probably won't go any higher than 2.4 ghz on the current process (you will likely not get any higher than that yourself overclocking on air either) and I belive that AMD won't serve us 0.09 micron A64's for a long time. Most likely not before next summer.
So.. I really was comparing likely overclocks of the latest t-breds/bartons with A64's although I didn't explain this. You are likely to get similar clock speeds out of each of the cpu's. Maybe 100 mhz more from a t-bred compared to a barton and A64.

Knowing that neither Intel or AMD will have anything that will significantly outperform even sub 60 dollar cpus with a 2 year old core design for as long as another year just plain sux. And so I was trying to express my boredom of the cpu situation right now with this post.

I was also trying to express that I feel that the A64 provides sucky value for the dollar.

And for your information.. I have been overclocking since I got my 486 dx2 50 to run @ 66 mhz .. And that was.. well.. a long time ago. I've since gone through heaps of cpu's and motherboards. Always trying to find the most performance for the money I had and having fun while doing it.

Saying that a certain overclock on a certain cpu type is outrageous.. Wow.. I did not know. Years ago I sold HEAPS of celeron 300's @ 450 mhz and made a pretty nice profit at that time. I did not get ONE SINGLE cpu that didn't do 450 mhz or more!

So was I outrageous in risking getting non overclockable cpu's then and thereby possibly losing money?.. Well.. it didn't really feel outrageous back then... really.. It didn't, I promise!

The same thing could be said about t-bred b dlt3c 1.5v (or 1.45v) processors today. I have friends that have gone through many of these cpu's and none of them did less than 2.2 ghz..

So.. if someone asked me what processor to buy for an alost guaranteed overclock I would recomend one of those. I wouldn't have a hard time at all claiming an almost guaranteed 2.2 ghz. Almost guaranteed means around 95% success rate or better in my head.

I guess we have just had different experiences you and I.

 

BDSM

Senior member
Jun 6, 2001
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btw. those scores I compared were between athlon xp 3200+ and a64 3200+.. none of which were overclocked and scores were mostly from anandtech.

Also. the 50% I was talking about. I was telling the other dude that was saying the a64 slapped around the axp3200+ that I didn't agree and that slapping around would be alot mor than a measly 17% or so advantage.. more like 50% would be.

So.. unless you have a patented definition of what is slapping around is I think it's fair to say that you are just wrong and that YOU are the one that don't know what you are talking about.. Read and understand what I am typing before you reply next time ok?

 

chsh1ca

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2003
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Originally posted by chsh1ca
LMAO, where's my "Please don't feed the trolls!" sign when I need it.

Originally posted by: BDSM
chsh1ca.. Well hello to you too mr stupid.

rolleye.gif


I don't even think the rest of his post bears responding to.
 

BDSM

Senior member
Jun 6, 2001
584
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chsh1ca.. Well I think that you need to understand that i fyou insult people they are likely to insult you back.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
I feel that we're reaching a plateau here, at least for a time. Current operating system architecture and interfaces just do not yet need anything more powerful. It's entering the zone between current interface types, and the big jump to intelligent interfaces with GOOD voice recognition, and some degree of actual intelligence. Systems like that will require significantly more powerful hardware though; I don't think that current technology types would be able to handle anything like that.
 

Confused

Elite Member
Nov 13, 2000
14,166
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Originally posted by: pelikan
Have you guys tried running Halo with max detail? I know I could use more cpu power.

That's because Halo is badly written! It even makes the best hardware stand up and go "I cannay take it cap'ain, she dooose not 'ave the powwwer" then fall over in a crippled heap on the floor yelling "OMFG what the hell was that!?"


Confused
 

txxxx

Golden Member
Feb 13, 2003
1,700
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Originally posted by: lookouthere
CPU designing is longer. It takes about 3 to 5 years to have a new design. While GPU( graphic proccessor) is much faster. They takes about half a year to a year to have a new design.

Hmmmm. GPU's every 6 months or so are usually improvement in production to achieve higher core speeds, and maybe a few adjustments.
 

KF

Golden Member
Dec 3, 1999
1,371
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I pretty much agree with your evaluation of the performance of CPUs. But the situation does not appear boring or unusual to me. Probably the anticipation and extended waiting for the A64 made it seem like it was going to be spectacular. That is the nature of extended anticipation. But it is usual for CPUs to be introduced at modest improvements, if any. If they did it any other way, they would be wasting the resources of the corporation. A bigger jump always involves higher development costs.

And it is definitely not boring to get a great performing CPU for round about $100. We've had a great ride, as consumers, while the economy and prices have been depressed. That is beginning to turn around. Therefore the new generation of CPUs will seem expensive for what they do. But that is just returning to the norm back when there was a good economy.

Expect it to be a drawn out process, but SOI will become increasingly better adapated to mass-produced CPUs, and the clock speeds available are going to escalate. Remember the speed of the first Athlons compared to the present, and expect a similar run for A64s. (When Athlons hit 1GHz, it seemed like they were pushing it.) Just assume the AMD engineers planned the A64 for that kind of extensive future. Why? Not because they are extra super-duper engineers, or because they are more idealistic at AMD than Intel. Because it is the cheapest plan that garantees AMD a continued future. Intel can afford to soak up development costs on processors that are ultimately a dead end, and switch to an alternative when it tops out too quickly to be competitive. That is too expensive for AMD, with one fifth the sales of CPUs. Even the A64 is an said to be an extension and elaboration of the previous Athlon conceptually. That is designing with a long future in mind.

Forward looking designs have a hard time starting to roll. Anybody remember the original 60MHz Pentium plain? Everybody knew that Intel intended for them to be 66MHz, but initially it realistically didn't quite make it, not in quantity. Pentiums were over $1000 when introduced, and didn't drop fast. A generally better performing 486DX4 100MHz cost $120, AMD version. However the 66 Mhz Pentium had near double the performance in Intel's rating system, so the pricing wasn't quite as outrageous as it seems. Intel's benchmarks were very heavy on things people didn't do much at that time, and that was mostly because previous CPUs were so inadequate to the task.

But if you don't have a forward-looking plan, you ultimately lose. Intel steadily filled in the pieces of the plan and got the Pentium on track. People now take for granted doing the tasks that once were so specialized, simply because CPUs easily do them. You automatically get the capability tossed in for free with CPUs that cost under $50. There never was any huge demand for these capabilities. Nothing that would justify a large price tag for very many people. Yet there is a demand for them in the sense that people use them. They are available now practially for free because initially there were a small segment of buyers that WOULD pay extra for them.

I see the fallacious "no demand" arguments presented endlessly. My first HD was 60 megabytes. (It cost about about $250, and the controller card that was required cost $100.) That is mega, not giga. Believe me, there was "no demand" for 60 Gig hard drives then. There was a small demand for drives that did actually exist, maybe 200 megabytes at the time, although not a lot. So how did we end up with 40G drives for $40, if there was "no demand?"

My second computer had 32 kilobytes. (about $500.) That's kilo, not mega. The total address space was 64 kilobytes. So there was "no demand" for 512 megabytes. Believe me. It would have cost $8,000,000. Evidently, even though there is "no demand" for a product, it comes into being somehow, and I wonder how that may be?

Although it is true that there is no demand for things far beyond anything that exists, there is a small demand for things that push the limits of things which do exist. There is a progression that moves the things which exist to a lower cost, and simultaneously brings into reality things former beyond possibilty. By arguing that bleeding edge technology is useless and pointless (which is nearly true), and therefore should not be put on the market (which is false), people would stop the progression.

IMO, 64 bit addressing is past due. Although we could get by with just a couple more bits of address in the next few years, it is easy to go all the way to 64 bits given present technology, and by doing it that way, we have a consistent system that will last into the indefinite future. That makes the progression to ever larger memory easy. In order for 64 bit style programs to be around when over 4G memory becomes so cheap it would be common, there has to be a real 64 bit processor in production yesterday. The lack of that 64 bit processor for the last couple of years has been holding back the progression.


 

jiffylube1024

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: BDSM
Yeah.. p4's are getting to maybe 3,5 ghz and athlons to around 2,5 ghz max.. It feels like the cpu market hasn't moved at all in the last six months.. Sure the athlon64's are a tiny bit faster but nothing groundbreaking.. plus they cost a fortune.

I bet if I get a new fx 51 and oc it as much as possible (around 2.4 ghz is max from what I've been able to gather) I wouldn't notice much of a difference from my t-bred b @ 2540 mhz in games .. and the fx setup would cost me around 1500 bucks here in sweden (yeah it's expensive here).. and my current setup is over nine months old and only cost me around 320 dollars... and would cost even less now

So.. I figure this sux bad.. Anyone agree?


When we hit 500Mhz, everything after that was for essentially game performance, benchmarks and other CPU intensive applications.

A 1 GHz P3/Athlon is essentially still all any end-user would ever need for word processing, internet surfing, even dabbling into photo editing, etc.

I was mucking around on someone's 1.13 GHz Athlon (133 FSB) the other week, and it wasn't that much slower than my 3 GHz machine. Welcome to, as posted above, the world of diminishing returns.

This is the way it is. I think the CPU market is still improving as quickly as ever (P4's at 3.2 GHz and Athlons at >2 Ghz is incredible).