This Land Is Our Land!

[Jaskalas]

As you may be aware... there was some commotion in California this past week. Protestors in favor of open borders. People waiving Mexican flags, and Drudgereport headlining a stereotypical kid holding a sign "Make America Mexico Again"

Whether you think that kid's sign has a point... or you think he's being used as a prop - there IS an underlying subject worth exploring here.

Whose land is it anyway?

I ask because it dawned on me while this subject was raised this week. Whether they are illegals or not. Whether they are invaders or not. These folks are already on the land that they are claiming. I am not. So... whatever else has happened... they are on that land now. Shouldn't it "belong" to those currently living there, regardless of the claim of others?

Yes... although they crossed a border and as an American citizen who grew up with American culture... IN Southern California no less... is anyone else's claim, including my own, relevant? Do any of us not living there have claim to the land? Like Crimea, those people were largely Russian. In California, those people are largely from a different nationality. Should that bother me, should it make me feel unsafe? Perhaps it shouldn't...

Which claim prevails?

They are currently living there. They are not going anywhere.
"Deport them!"
Really? Do you grasp the human cost of that? The violence that'd follow?
To protect what?

Do we really need inflexible borders, or should they be adjusted from time to time to reflect the reality of the situation? There's a price to be paid by systematically changing the culture and nationality of people on any given land.

Should it bother me, or should we respect the new locals?

 

[LegendKiller]

The land matters a lot less than the political, legal, social, economic, infrastructure...etc systems that have been put in place since Mexico lost it in a a war.

If it was there land it'd be as shitty as Mexico and they'd be fleeing to the next round of states.

 

[soulcougher73]

Land is owned by whoever can conquer and hold it. That would be us. Problem solved

 

[1prophet]

What you are seeing is useful puppets doing the bidding of the rich neo-liberals who don't want educated Americans along with unions and the rules and regulations that provided the prosperity in this country and kept the 1% in check.

They look at the world and the people as resources for multinational corporations to exploit while using bleeding heart liberals and think of the children games or cut our taxes, eliminate regulations and wealth will trickle down to you if you are conservative.

One of their tools is illegal immigration, mass migration, and outsourcing and if you oppose it you are a xenophobe, racist, protectionist, etc.

.

 

[sandorski]

I suspect the sign is just to troll Trump supporters.

 

[Jaskalas]

I suspect the sign is just to troll Trump supporters.

Reconquista existed before Trump.
Charles Truxillo of UNM was teaching of Del Norte.

The sign is touching on an existential question. Do Americans have claim to remove invaders from the Southwest, as the Trump voters are lining up to act on, or does the humanitarian cost outweigh our legal border?

In other words... do we go to war to reclaim the Southwest?

I know folks who are 100% behind that. I've at times been swayed to agree with the notion. Trump is everything they dream of. But simple humanity indicates that this may be a very bad course to follow. That we need to settle this issue by creating a new standard. The Crimean standard, where the locals matter more than the government claiming ownership. Where the Southwest belongs to its people, not the United States. And that their future belongs to them, and not us. That we don't need to go to war to "solve" this. Maybe we can respect the new residents and treat them as human beings while recognizing their right to self determination.

Maybe you'll snub your nose at the idea that there's anything to discuss here, but I present you exhibit A. Trump is a thing. And those opponents are waving Mexican flags. They are not American nationals, but they certainly hold our land. Americans are itching to take action. They desperately want a Republican President to cleanse the Southwest by any means necessary.

 

[michal1980]

Reconquista existed before Trump.
Charles Truxillo of UNM was teaching of Del Norte.

The sign is touching on an existential question. Do Americans have claim to remove invaders from the Southwest, as the Trump voters are lining up to act on, or does the humanitarian cost outweigh our legal border?

In other words... do we go to war to reclaim the Southwest?

I know folks who are 100% behind that. I've at times been swayed to agree with the notion. Trump is everything they dream of. But simple humanity indicates that this may be a very bad course to follow. That we need to settle this issue by creating a new standard. The Crimean standard, where the locals matter more than the government claiming ownership. Where the Southwest belongs to its people, not the United States. And that their future belongs to them, and not us. That we don't need to go to war to "solve" this. Maybe we can respect the new residents and treat them as human beings while recognizing their right to self determination.

Maybe you'll snub your nose at the idea that there's anything to discuss here, but I present you exhibit A. Trump is a thing. And those opponents are waving Mexican flags. They are not American nationals, but they certainly hold our land. Americans are itching to take action. They desperately want a Republican President to cleanse the Southwest by any means necessary.

that's a lot of bullshit your shoveling.

 

[leper84]

If Mexico wants American soil then they can declare war and try to take it.

If it was there land it'd be as shitty as Mexico and they'd be fleeing to the next round of states.

This.

 

[pcgeek11]

Screw Mexico and their illegal invaders.

 

[Indus]

Screw Mexico and their illegal invaders.

Why don't we just invade them, and build a giant statue of Americana in Mexico City? Cheaper anyways!

 

[pcgeek11]

Nobody wants that dump.

 

[Indus]

Nobody wants that dump.

I wouldn't say that since lots of people vacation there and retire there. Can't be all bad.

We could just incorporate it as a territory like Puerto Rico.

 

[mizzou]

Based on that logic, do you also think Isreal has every right to occupy all of its lands?

 

[Svnla]

So by Mexicans logic, Spain used to own them for years, let Spain takes back Mexico and Mexican women again.

 

[trenchfoot]

I wouldn't say that since lots of people vacation there and retire there. Can't be all bad.

We could just incorporate it as a territory like Puerto Rico.

Big business would never let that happen. They need things to remain just as they are in order to keep the pool of dirt cheap illegal immigrant labor intact.

 

[alcoholbob]

The land isn't the issue, it's the social contract, the welfare state, institutions, traditions of English common law and a multitude of things that make America an appealing place to live--in other words it's the society that was created by the people living here. If you moved all Americans to Mexico and moved all the Mexicans to America, in 10 years America would be a failed state and everybody would be trying to flood into Mexico. In the same token if all Americans moved to Canada and simply gave up the continental United States, in a matter of years there'd be millions of South, Central America, and Mexican migrants fleeing the U.S. to flood into Canada, so this really has nothing to do with ancestral land rights but rather a movement of people trying to live in a more productive nation with a better social safety net. It's the same reason why migrants in North Africa and the middle east will go through a dozen EU nations to end up in Germany or Sweden.

It should be easily noted that hardly anyone lived in the west after the Mexican-American War and the Mexican government sold the land to the U.S. government. There were a few thousand Mexican families here. The reason there was hardly anyone here then and now the equivalent of a third of the population of Mexico now lives in the southern United States is due to the very culture, institutions, and infrastructure that Americans built that Mexicans couldn't and thus couldn't form a high population density in the middle of the desert. Mexico has far more arable land and a climate more conducive to agriculture than the lands in the western United States that Mexico ceded to the United States, and yet it's desert waste land in the United States that's become a world-wide bread basket.

Mexicans moving in large numbers to the U.S. means long term you going to get voting patterns and cultural standards that make America more like Mexico. If you think that's a great thing, then keep at it.

 

[MagickMan]

Yeah... they'll just hand So Cal back to Mexico, I'm sure they're going to get right on that. hahahaha

Could you imagine what LA would look like after being run by the Mexican gov't for 10 years? Take a good look at Mexico City.

 

[Jaskalas]

Mexicans moving in large numbers to the U.S. means long term you going to get voting patterns and cultural standards that make America more like Mexico. If you think that's a great thing, then keep at it.

I think it's a terrible thing to change our culture and our nationality.
But what is the option that prevents this change?

I see that kid with that sign... and I see a foreign national on our soil. Yet I also see the sort of violence that would be suffered if we tried to change that. Isn't it more or less the case of trying to show up to a fight that's already lost? It's not worth the price?

 

[compuwiz1]

The land isn't the issue, it's the social contract, the welfare state, institutions, traditions of English common law and a multitude of things that make America an appealing place to live--in other words it's the society that was created by the people living here. If you moved all Americans to Mexico and moved all the Mexicans to America, in 10 years America would be a failed state and everybody would be trying to flood into Mexico. In the same token if all Americans moved to Canada and simply gave up the continental United States, in a matter of years there'd be millions of South, Central America, and Mexican migrants fleeing the U.S. to flood into Canada, so this really has nothing to do with ancestral land rights but rather a movement of people trying to live in a more productive nation with a better social safety net. It's the same reason why migrants in North Africa and the middle east will go through a dozen EU nations to end up in Germany or Sweden.

It should be easily noted that hardly anyone lived in the west after the Mexican-American War and the Mexican government sold the land to the U.S. government. There were a few thousand Mexican families here. The reason there was hardly anyone here then and now the equivalent of a third of the population of Mexico now lives in the southern United States is due to the very culture, institutions, and infrastructure that Americans built that Mexicans couldn't and thus couldn't form a high population density in the middle of the desert. Mexico has far more arable land and a climate more conducive to agriculture than the lands in the western United States that Mexico ceded to the United States, and yet it's desert waste land in the United States that's become a world-wide bread basket.

Mexicans moving in large numbers to the U.S. means long term you going to get voting patterns and cultural standards that make America more like Mexico. If you think that's a great thing, then keep at it.

Very good post! I've often thought these exact same things, but have never been able to put my finger on the whys. We have the same natural resources, pretty much. Mexico is a beautiful place. Don't all the migrants in the world wish to escape their circumstances, but then try and turn where they moved into a place like they left? That's kind of insane, when you think about it. Grass is always greener.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Where the Southwest belongs to its people, not the United States.

It belongs to the people of these United States. US Citizens. Not Mexico. Not only are you a bleeding-heart liberal, but also a traitor to the United States, if you think we should just "hand over" southern Cali to the illegal Mexican nationals living there.

Kick them all the FUCK OUT!

 

[compuwiz1]

It belongs to the people of these United States. US Citizens. Not Mexico. Not only are you a bleeding-heart liberal, but also a traitor to the United States, if you think we should just "hand over" southern Cali to the illegal Mexican nationals living there.

Kick them all the FUCK OUT!

I agree with you. The problem is that the Genie has been out of the bottle for so long, that the correction looks cruel, especially to liberals. At what point does the correction become necessary, despite the objections? I think now. The good of America must come first. Americans first!

The longer we prolong what must be done, the more painful it will become. Let's just get it over with and return to the order of law.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

It belongs to the people of these United States. US Citizens. Not Mexico. Not only are you a bleeding-heart liberal, but also a traitor to the United States, if you think we should just "hand over" southern Cali to the illegal Mexican nationals living there.

Kick them all the FUCK OUT!

you go get 'em billy badass.
I've never understood why having empathy is a bad thing. And a traitor too? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
ffs.

 

[michal1980]

you go get 'em billy badass.
I've never understood why having empathy is a bad thing. And a traitor too? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
ffs.

Its fine to have empathy. But that doesn't mean you give up large chunks of land to people that are illegally living on it.


People like the op somehow equate deporting illegals to murdering them.

 

[Jaskalas]

Its fine to have empathy. But that doesn't mean you give up large chunks of land to people that are illegally living on it.

Whose land is it? You are not living there.
Does the Democratic majority of a given locality not have rights to self determination. Are you so wanton to crush their will, the will of those people who "belong" to that land?

If 50% or more of a town is of a foreign culture and nationality, are you going to remove that majority by force?
There is nothing Democratic about forcing yourself on others.

People like the op somehow equate deporting illegals to murdering them.

You somehow equate ruining their lives, to something that won't be resisted or stopped.
You appear to have missed the very meaning of the use of force.
The reason it hasn't been done already? Same reason it will never be done.

Do you not see the violence behind what you desire?

 

[WHAMPOM]

Mexico, what Republicans want America to look like, Aristos and peasants working the Aristos' property. Pretty much as the illegal alien system works now in the USA but for everybody.