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This just in, country in worse shape since 2001

jjzelinski

Diamond Member
I'm particularily dissapointed in the 10 point spike the Republican campaign has recieved and I just wanted to ofer a post that tried to sum up, off the top of my head, all of the policy failures of our government that I could think of over the last 4 years:

We are less secure, the world is in greater turmoil and we've done more to spurn it on than stem it.

Following the attacks of 9/11, we've gone from a global PR surplus to an enormous PR deficit. We've sacraficed the willingess of our allies for a war that has been proven to be based on halth truths and miscalculations that were widely announced BEFORE the invasion. Not to mention how rediculously bad the nation building effort went following the invasion. Someone apparently thought our underdeveloped invasion/occupation force (Gen. Shinseki anyone?) would be welcomed with flower petals under their feet and becamed "shocked and awed" by the reaction we got by allowing their society to crumble into anarchy for several months.

In order to facilitate the war in Iraq, much of the resources that were being used in Aghanistan were shifted to the invasion of Iraq.

Iraq, which, as a secular, despotic military regime, had no ties to AQ, was completely dissasociated from the war on terrorism.

We've done very little (at least that I've read about) to "handle" (either diplomatically or militarilly) truely threatening nations such as like Iran, Syria, or Pakistan (whereas it's commonly held that UBL has been hiding for the past 2 years.)

The economy may finally be creating jobs, perhaps enough to make up for most of the ones lost in the last 4 years.

The income brackets have a experienced significant polarization; the rich have gotten MUCH wealthier whereasthe the lower and midddle classes generally have suffered, and continue to suffer the burden of the recession.

There are 4 million new people without any form of insurance

Health care reform, lead by a "conservative" administration, senate and house, has lead to a proverbial geyser of profit for select industries in the last several years, all the while making a significant contribution to the greatest budget deficit in history.

Which reminds me, our "conservative" legislative and executive branchs have created the greatest budget deficit in history from one of the greatest surplesses we've ever seen. That's truley remarkable.

All that was promised by the administration during the 2000 campaign has genrally gone unaddressed, and yet now it scrambles to re-promise the promise let unmet or the past 4 years and we're all supposed to believe it will happen. I don't think there was much in the way of political gridlock since, for the last two years alone, the house and the senate have given the executive branch a permanent green light to anything they could possibly want to legislate. Free money or everyone!

The policy failures of both the legislative and excutive branches are so agregious, overt, and abundant that the those holding the reigns of our govnerment will do anything, say anything, and hide what cannot be justified with smoke and mirrors behind a banner of greed and nationalism.
 
This has already been discussed (if you can call it a discussion) at length about 100 times in 100 ways. You are new, so I don't hold this against you.

As you say, these are just observations. People observed thousands of years ago that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around us. However, simple observations aren't always correct. This also doesn't mean that I disagree with everything you are saying. The problem is that I don't believe that Kerry can fix a single one of these problems. Not one. I believe that he will make things considerably worse. Bush, I believe, will make things worse, but not nearly as worse as Kerry. Both will take us on a one way trip to hell, however, one will take the scenic route, and the other will hop on the express way and drive there at 150mph. Take your pick on which one is which.
 
I respect your reply, but I see it somewhat differently. Here's another analogy:

The room your sitting in is on fire, you know it's on fire because you can see the flames, smell the burning walls, feel the sting of the heat. Your house in now on fire, is it worth the risk of going into the next room not knowing if it is also on fire?
 
Originally posted by: XZeroII
This has already been discussed (if you can call it a discussion) at length about 100 times in 100 ways. You are new, so I don't hold this against you.

As you say, these are just observations. People observed thousands of years ago that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around us. However, simple observations aren't always correct. This also doesn't mean that I disagree with everything you are saying. The problem is that I don't believe that Kerry can fix a single one of these problems. Not one. I believe that he will make things considerably worse. Bush, I believe, will make things worse, but not nearly as worse as Kerry. Both will take us on a one way trip to hell, however, one will take the scenic route, and the other will hop on the express way and drive there at 150mph. Take your pick on which one is which.


LOL, Vote for Bush! It's true he sucks but not as much as Kerry :laugh:
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: XZeroII
This has already been discussed (if you can call it a discussion) at length about 100 times in 100 ways. You are new, so I don't hold this against you.

As you say, these are just observations. People observed thousands of years ago that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around us. However, simple observations aren't always correct. This also doesn't mean that I disagree with everything you are saying. The problem is that I don't believe that Kerry can fix a single one of these problems. Not one. I believe that he will make things considerably worse. Bush, I believe, will make things worse, but not nearly as worse as Kerry. Both will take us on a one way trip to hell, however, one will take the scenic route, and the other will hop on the express way and drive there at 150mph. Take your pick on which one is which.


LOL, Vote for Bush! It's true he sucks but not as much as Kerry :laugh:

:beer:
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: XZeroII
This has already been discussed (if you can call it a discussion) at length about 100 times in 100 ways. You are new, so I don't hold this against you.

As you say, these are just observations. People observed thousands of years ago that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around us. However, simple observations aren't always correct. This also doesn't mean that I disagree with everything you are saying. The problem is that I don't believe that Kerry can fix a single one of these problems. Not one. I believe that he will make things considerably worse. Bush, I believe, will make things worse, but not nearly as worse as Kerry. Both will take us on a one way trip to hell, however, one will take the scenic route, and the other will hop on the express way and drive there at 150mph. Take your pick on which one is which.


LOL, Vote for Bush! It's true he sucks but not as much as Kerry :laugh:

Does that mean your Voting Bush Red?
 
Originally posted by: jjzelinski
I respect your reply, but I see it somewhat differently. Here's another analogy:

The room your sitting in is on fire, you know it's on fire because you can see the flames, smell the burning walls, feel the sting of the heat. Your house in now on fire, is it worth the risk of going into the next room not knowing if it is also on fire?

:beer:

Your use of reason is commendable, but will fall on deaf ears. I suggest ranting and raving. That is the true spirit of P&N.
 
omeone apparently thought our underdeveloped invasion/occupation force (Gen. Shinseki anyone?) would be welcomed with flower petals under their feet and becamed "shocked and awed" by the reaction we got by allowing their society to crumble into anarchy for several months.

Correction: it was Shinseki who warned that we would need 400-500,000 troops and was subsequently ridiculed (for being right) by Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.
The economy may finally be creating jobs, perhaps enough to make up for most of the ones lost in the last 4 years.
No it hasn't, there's still a net loss of about 900,000 jobs.


Also, you fail to mention that 9/11 was the first test of our president; a test he failed miserably. I'm not talking about how he sat there for seven minutes until his boner subsided, but that he failed to perform his duty and take the terrorist threat seriously before 9/11. Remember how he created a special national security task force headed by Dick Cheney (this was pre911), that never met? His campaign is centered around how he is the only one who can protect America, but the only chance he's gotten to do so, he failed.

good post otherwise.
 
After reading some other postsm, here are a ffew more criticisms I'd fogotten about:

The jump in worker productivity due not to technological innovation, but rather an oppressive job market. If you don't like working a 60+ hour work week without OT (thanks unlce sam!) then you can leave. Good luck on finding another job.

Overtime laws have been restructured, created hundred's o thousands if not millions of new exempetions. This will help companies squeeze yet MORE productivity out of their employee's and therefore generate more profit! As for those "millions" of laborers in the lowest income brackets who now qualify for OT, I've got some bad news for you. There are millions of people just like you, unskilled, uneducatedm and untrained that can fill your McDonald's shoes for you. Now that McD's is required to pay you overtime for 40+ hours work, you will never work more than 40 hours again. Instead, McD's will simply hire more fry clerks, work each less, and retain their current current employments costs by logically sidestepping an expensive employement law. You what's so damn clever about this? Now that McD's is hiring more people it will reflect stronger employment figures since you'll either have people working there who're overqualified and who's standard of living has greatly decreased, or by adding NEW people to the workforce who may not have carred to struggle or a job a t McD's prior to the minimum wage hiring spree.

The job creation we've been experience have primarily been in services. A.k.a., low paying, fast food and wal-mart jobs. Yay!

Unemployment beneits during the outset and well into the recession were not extended in time to help millions of workers who could not find work to maintain their standard of living. The economy will do what it must, but when an entire sector of th economy experiences a backlash like IT and manufacturing did, it makes sense that the government will step in and do what it can to gett those people either retrained or allow them the time to find that needle in the hay stack 3000 miles away from their home.
 
Originally posted by: Vadatajs
omeone apparently thought our underdeveloped invasion/occupation force (Gen. Shinseki anyone?) would be welcomed with flower petals under their feet and becamed "shocked and awed" by the reaction we got by allowing their society to crumble into anarchy for several months.

Correction: it was Shinseki who warned that we would need 400-500,000 troops and was subsequently ridiculed (for being right) by Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.
The economy may finally be creating jobs, perhaps enough to make up for most of the ones lost in the last 4 years.
No it hasn't, there's still a net loss of about 900,000 jobs.


Also, you fail to mention that 9/11 was the first test of our president; a test he failed miserably. I'm not talking about how he sat there for seven minutes until his boner subsided, but that he failed to perform his duty and take the terrorist threat seriously before 9/11. Remember how he created a special national security task force headed by Dick Cheney (this was pre911), that never met? His campaign is centered around how he is the only one who can protect America, but the only chance he's gotten to do so, he failed.

good post otherwise.

Additions to and clarifications of the above are more than welcome. I agree with your post, but keep in mind the above was strictly off the cuff. That's part of the point.

EDIT: also, with regard to Shinseki, I'm very much aware of the point you made and, despite my writing abilities, that's what I was trying to get at 🙂

 
Doesn't this go beyond a simple personal observation? I think poll numbers also show people think we're heading in the wrong direction and that we were better off four years ago...
 
I think discussion of the issues is being sacraficed at the expense of "polls." People are becoming complacent and are failing to keep in mind how misreable the policy decisions of the lsat for years have been. "yeah, yeah, I've heard it all beore" belies the abundance and severity of those failures.
 
Originally posted by: bjc112
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: XZeroII
This has already been discussed (if you can call it a discussion) at length about 100 times in 100 ways. You are new, so I don't hold this against you.

As you say, these are just observations. People observed thousands of years ago that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around us. However, simple observations aren't always correct. This also doesn't mean that I disagree with everything you are saying. The problem is that I don't believe that Kerry can fix a single one of these problems. Not one. I believe that he will make things considerably worse. Bush, I believe, will make things worse, but not nearly as worse as Kerry. Both will take us on a one way trip to hell, however, one will take the scenic route, and the other will hop on the express way and drive there at 150mph. Take your pick on which one is which.


LOL, Vote for Bush! It's true he sucks but not as much as Kerry :laugh:

Does that mean your Voting Bush Red?
No I don't believe in rewarding someone who has done a very poor job with a contract extension.
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Doesn't this go beyond a simple personal observation? I think poll numbers also show people think we're heading in the wrong direction and that we were better off four years ago...

I wish that "wrong track" number actually meant something. There are just too many reasons why the country can be considered on the wrong track. Look at the pro/anti-choice debate; pro-choice would say we're on the wrong track because we have an anti-choice president, while the anti-choicers would say the same thing because Roe v Wade hasn't been overturned yet. The same holds true for many other issues.

 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: bjc112
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: XZeroII
This has already been discussed (if you can call it a discussion) at length about 100 times in 100 ways. You are new, so I don't hold this against you.

As you say, these are just observations. People observed thousands of years ago that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around us. However, simple observations aren't always correct. This also doesn't mean that I disagree with everything you are saying. The problem is that I don't believe that Kerry can fix a single one of these problems. Not one. I believe that he will make things considerably worse. Bush, I believe, will make things worse, but not nearly as worse as Kerry. Both will take us on a one way trip to hell, however, one will take the scenic route, and the other will hop on the express way and drive there at 150mph. Take your pick on which one is which.


LOL, Vote for Bush! It's true he sucks but not as much as Kerry :laugh:

Does that mean your Voting Bush Red?
No I don't believe in rewarding someone who has done a very poor job with a contract extension.


You must work for HP also 🙂
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: bjc112
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: XZeroII
This has already been discussed (if you can call it a discussion) at length about 100 times in 100 ways. You are new, so I don't hold this against you.

As you say, these are just observations. People observed thousands of years ago that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around us. However, simple observations aren't always correct. This also doesn't mean that I disagree with everything you are saying. The problem is that I don't believe that Kerry can fix a single one of these problems. Not one. I believe that he will make things considerably worse. Bush, I believe, will make things worse, but not nearly as worse as Kerry. Both will take us on a one way trip to hell, however, one will take the scenic route, and the other will hop on the express way and drive there at 150mph. Take your pick on which one is which.


LOL, Vote for Bush! It's true he sucks but not as much as Kerry :laugh:

Does that mean your Voting Bush Red?
No I don't believe in rewarding someone who has done a very poor job with a contract extension.

SO i take it you will contract someone worse?
 
How can you possibly know he will be worse? I anything there is a lack of evidence in either favor with regard to Kerry. The current admin, otoh, has a proven track record.
 
Originally posted by: jjzelinski
How can you possibly know he will be worse? I anything there is a lack of evidence in either favor with regard to Kerry. The current admin, otoh, has a proven track record.

Red has said numerous times he thinks he sucks more than Bush..

Lack of evidence? I truly do believe in looking at his track record in the senate from the last 15 or 20 years..

 
Originally posted by: bjc112
Originally posted by: jjzelinski
How can you possibly know he will be worse? I anything there is a lack of evidence in either favor with regard to Kerry. The current admin, otoh, has a proven track record.

Red has said numerous times he thinks he sucks more than Bush..
No I haven't.
 
Originally posted by: jjzelinski
How can you possibly know he will be worse? I anything there is a lack of evidence in either favor with regard to Kerry. The current admin, otoh, has a proven track record.

My cat has no track record either. Doesn't mean we should make him president. When a candidate is running with only 2 benefits to his name, and one is that he was in Vietnam and the other is that he isn't the current president, I get incredibly nervous. Better the devil you know than you don't know.

It's actually funny because if you read The Dilbert Future, he actually predicts this sort of thing, except he argued that a party could nominate a bag of lettuce and the supporters would support that bag of lettuce no matter what despite the fact that IT'S A BAG OF LETTUCE!!! That's how I feel right now. Maybe I'll find that page and copy that paragraph because it was pretty funny.
 
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: jjzelinski
How can you possibly know he will be worse? I anything there is a lack of evidence in either favor with regard to Kerry. The current admin, otoh, has a proven track record.

My cat has no track record either. Doesn't mean we should make him president. When a candidate is running with only 2 benefits to his name, and one is that he was in Vietnam and the other is that he isn't the current president, I get incredibly nervous. Better the devil you know than you don't know.

It's actually funny because if you read The Dilbert Future, he actually predicts this sort of thing, except he argued that a party could nominate a bag of lettuce and the supporters would support that bag of lettuce no matter what despite the fact that IT'S A BAG OF LETTUCE!!! That's how I feel right now. Maybe I'll find that page and copy that paragraph because it was pretty funny.

The bag of lettuce was "elected" 4 years ago. Let's give the tomato a chance, how could it get any worse?? For me it sure can't. 🙂
 
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