This Isn?t About Iraq Anymore

Grasshopper27

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Sep 11, 2002
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Many diplomats have downplayed Western divisions over Iraq. In the past, both Americans and Europeans were tied together in a common struggle against Soviet communism. Suez, Vietnam, Pershing missiles, Grenada?all were issues where there was tactical disagreement. On the big strategic issue, everyone in the West saw eye to eye.

Iraq has proved a breaking issue not because of wide disagreements about it. The West doesn?t disagree fundamentally on Iraq. But the debate is not really about Iraq, it?s about the United States. Many in Europe worry more about America than Iraq. For them Iraq is a tactical issue. The strategic issue is what are they going to do about America, the dominating power in the world today.

During the early 1990s many believed that the bipolar world of the cold war would yield to a world of many powers. But Europe, which was to have become a mammoth actor on the world stage, showed itself to be a disunited continent, and one in economic crisis. Japan?s economy also went sour. Russia moved in a few years from being a great power to a great power vacuum. China and India, for all their growth, remain developing countries. The only one left standing was the United States of America, rising taller than any nation in history.

Few countries have truly adapted to this new international landscape. France and Germany, for example, seem to have decided to place as many obstacles as they can in America?s way. But this will surely not stop American action. It will merely ensure that this action takes place outside the context of the United Nations and NATO. Is this a victory for the French and Germans in the long run? They have split Europe, weakened NATO and diminished the Security Council?all to prevent action against Saddam Hussein. A world with fewer rules and restraints is one in which America will do just fine. It is the rest of the world that benefits most from these institutions.

If some European countries have been slow to recognize the realities of American power, so has Washington. But it?s obvious that Washington has total freedom. That?s why it would be wiser not to mention it every few days. When your power is so obvious and overwhelming, you need to show not that you can act alone but that you want to act with others.

The West is now divided, as Owen Harries predicted, partly because of broad, historical forces. But it is also the result of bad diplomacy?on both sides. And unless the latter changes, the demonstrations in Europe over the weekend will mark the opening salvo of a new politics of protest. Europe, instead of being America?s leading partner, will become its most energetic opponent. This will be bad for the entire world. After all, when the West has been united it fostered peace. When divided, the result has always been war.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
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awesome job !

If you haven't already you should send that to some newspapers' editorial pages.

 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: PipBoy
I give this a 9.2 on the Propagand-o-meter.

Originally posted by: achiral
more rhetorical b s...
Oh come on guys, as if the arguements against America's efforts toward Iraq and the UN are the exact same thing. It's two sides of the same story both spouting bombastic rhetoric.
 

Yossarian

Lifer
Dec 26, 2000
18,010
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Originally posted by: TheVrolok
Oh come on guys, as if the arguements against America's efforts toward Iraq and the UN are the exact same thing. It's two sides of the same story both spouting bombastic rhetoric.

I agree. I am just weary of seeing new threads every day about it.
 

exp

Platinum Member
May 9, 2001
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We are the new Roman Empire, it's time we start behaving like it.
Are you f*cking insane?? That would be madness. I have no desire whatsoever to see this country pattern itself or its actions after an arrogant, corrupt militant regime like the Roman Empire. I guess you've forgotten the last regime that tried that...

Your point about Western divisions is well-taken, though. People have a tendency to label the Iraq crisis as the roots of a growing transatlantic rift, but I think the reality is that such divisions have always been there--Iraq is simply exposing them. In a way Americans are lucky that less trustworthy European allies are being flushed out over such a relatively minor issue...Iraq has been an invaluable warning sign in that respect. It could have been far worse (i.e. if the U.S. was actually in danger and Europe took that opportunity to st@b it in the back).

Still, I would hesitate to label Western divisions as *that* new. I think the rift is growing, but not as quickly as people think. There have always been problems between Europe and the U.S. I was watching a bit on TV the other day about Eisenhower and Taiwan, and the way he attempted to rally support from allies for military action there. Europe rejected his advances outright, describing America's conduct as "reckless, impulsive and immature." Sounds familiar, no? :p The alliance lasted for decades after that, so I see no reason why it could not outlast this crisis as well.
 

Grasshopper27

Banned
Sep 11, 2002
7,013
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Originally posted by: exp
We are the new Roman Empire, it's time we start behaving like it.
Are you f*cking insane?? That would be madness. I have no desire whatsoever to see this country pattern itself or its actions after an arrogant, corrupt militant regime like the Roman Empire. I guess you've forgotten the last regime that tried that...
You have to look at the second paragraph in my sig to understand what I mean.

I don't suggest we should go off and take over the world, I simply suggest that if we're going to be the sole superpower in the world, we should act like it and be responsible for world security.

Hopper
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Restraint is what's needed right at this moment on the part of the U.S. By giving in to France and Germany?s demand to give the inspectors more time, we could prevent discord in the future and still accomplish our goal. Since Saddam hasn't complied with Resolution 1441 over the last 12 years there's no reason we should expect him to do it in the near future. However, in going along with France and Germany?s request, we will have demonstrated that we are willing to work in a partnership with them. Of course when Hussien fails to comply we can then declare that we did everything they asked and that the only option left is to disarm Hussien by force. This will not only prevent the rift from growing in NATO and the UN, but should go a long way to healing any damage caused by the recent events. In addition, we won't have to foot the total bill for the Military action and the untold Billions of dollars to successfully rebuild and administer the rebuilding of Iraq. The latter is what is of the most importance to me as I feel that a Unilateral Military action and the following Occupation would cause both the American and British taxpayers dearly.

Of course for some untold reason, maybe his desire to live his life until he dies of natuaral causes, Hussien finally gives in and complies fully with the UN, then war and the consequences of war can be totally avoided. Of course nobody really expects than to happen.

BTW, it is arrogant and very presumptious to declare that we are the New Roman Empire. We haven't even been the #1 Military power for 60 years yet, let alone a Millenium and a Half. Hell the Frankish(French) Empire under Charlamagne was the Bad Boy on the Block longer than we have been.


 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
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Originally posted by: Fritoz
Sounds familiar...

Grasshopper - I think you should have lost all rights to post about this sh!t. Not only have you made an idiot out of yourself numerous times, often drawing insults from people on both sides of the issue.

But now you've gone the extra step and posted an editorial from MSNBC and acted as if you wrote it yourself.

Now go away you fool.

 

Grasshopper27

Banned
Sep 11, 2002
7,013
1
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Originally posted by: flavio
Grasshopper - I think you should have lost all rights to post about this sh!t. Not only have you made an idiot out of yourself numerous times, often drawing insults from people on both sides of the issue.

But now you've gone the extra step and posted an editorial from MSNBC and acted as if you wrote it yourself.

Now go away you fool.
My bad for forgetting to link to it...

Didn't mean to imply I wrote it. I only edited it for length, nothing more.

Hopper
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
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Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: exp
We are the new Roman Empire, it's time we start behaving like it.
Are you f*cking insane?? That would be madness. I have no desire whatsoever to see this country pattern itself or its actions after an arrogant, corrupt militant regime like the Roman Empire. I guess you've forgotten the last regime that tried that...
You have to look at the second paragraph in my sig to understand what I mean.

I don't suggest we should go off and take over the world, I simply suggest that if we're going to be the sole superpower in the world, we should act like it and be responsible for world security.

Hopper

Your statement about the Roman Empire only proves that the critics of US foreign policy are right. "We should act like it and be responsible for world security" is just a way to justify the US throwing its weight around.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
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My view on things --

The recent crisis in NATO and in the UN has been a rude wake up call for us Europeans. Our foreign minister said it really well on TV. He said that for a big part the crisis is the fault of the European countries. We do not agree about the foreign policy of the US BUT you can't blaim the US for looking at its own intrests. It's the task of the European countries to be a viable counterweight and you can not do this just being a economical superpower. To be a player on the world scene you need the military capacity. I'm pretty sure that in the future defense spending in the European countries will go up to meet this demand, not because we like it but because the Bush administration is forcing us to do it. Until recently even mentioning the possibility of an increase of the defense budget was a big taboo. We had other priorities and we had the mighty american umbrella to protect us. This situation has shifted dramatically in the last few weeks.

I don't think this is a healthy situation for the US and for Europe. In my humble opinion, this whole new situation is going to bite the USA right in the ass. The fact is that Europe is not Iraq or NK. We don't like to be yelled at. Europe is divided on many things but we all agree on one thing, the way that the Bush administration is flexing its muscles in a very arrogant way (at least for us) is a step to far for most Europeans. I can assure you one thing, the whole "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude has shocked even the most loyal US defenders over here. The US has lost a lot of credibility with this cowboy mentality. If the Bush administration used a more "soft" approach with the Iraqi problem the end result would be the same: the US could go after Saddam and the European countries would be behind the USA like we did the last 50 years. It says a lot to me that a small tiny country like mine (Belgium) has the guts to stand up against the USA and use its veto in the NATO. For the last 50 years we've always been a loyal ally (read: slave but we had no problems with that -we know our place in the world) and people over here still have a lot of respect for the American GI's who liberated us but the growing arrogance of the Bush foreign policy is getting on our nerves.

In the short term the Bush policy is effective. He's exploiting the different national interests of the European countries to reach his goal. In the long term this weakness is going to lead to a stronger Europe and the last thing that the US wants to see is a strong Europe with a decent common foreign policy and defense. Maybe we should thank GWB. Without realizing it he's doing more for political integration in Europe then what was possible before.

noy you can flame away and start the "nuke the f***cking tree huggers" posts (like usual). You are only proving my point.

 

dpm

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2002
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freegeeks: I can understand your analysis of cause, but i'm a lot more doubtful about your analysis of effect. Do you really think current American attitudes and actions will be enough to push Europe to an effective CFSP structure, much less the vastly increased defense spending that would be necessary to support this? Certainly current european hostility to the US has a lot to do with its arrogance and presumption, yet it would seem that the main influence on the public is their anti-war/pro pacifism streak. In the face of such public opinion (and electorally popular needs for government money, such as welfare or transport) how could a modern European government hope to get away with a radical increase in military spending?

And aside from the current situation, can there ever be any hope of a successful and effective European CFSP? This would require a sense of unity, and a set of deeply ingrained shared values, that Europe simply does not have. For all the differences between states, the USA is a much more homogenous place than Europe ever could be (or hopes to be, for that matter). Furthermore the states lack europe's complex history of national alliances and vendettas. And as the EU expands, it will become more fragmented in decision making, rather than less. The Franco-German alliance will have much less weight than before, and, after Parliament, Commission and Council reform could be marginalised. Poland alone has a huge population, living in very differenct conditions, with very different desires and opinions than those of the original 6, let alone the rest of the 15. Its certainly possible that many of the Eastern European states will look upon France and Germany in the same way that France and Germany seem to look on the US now.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
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reegeeks: I can understand your analysis of cause, but i'm a lot more doubtful about your analysis of effect. Do you really think current American attitudes and actions will be enough to push Europe to an effective CFSP structure, much less the vastly increased defense spending that would be necessary to support this? Certainly current european hostility to the US has a lot to do with its arrogance and presumption, yet it would seem that the main influence on the public is their anti-war/pro pacifism streak. In the face of such public opinion (and electorally popular needs for government money, such as welfare or transport) how could a modern European government hope to get away with a radical increase in military spending?

And aside from the current situation, can there ever be any hope of a successful and effective European CFSP? This would require a sense of unity, and a set of deeply ingrained shared values, that Europe simply does not have. For all the differences between states, the USA is a much more homogenous place than Europe ever could be (or hopes to be, for that matter). Furthermore the states lack europe's complex history of national alliances and vendettas. And as the EU expands, it will become more fragmented in decision making, rather than less. The Franco-German alliance will have much less weight than before, and, after Parliament, Commission and Council reform could be marginalised. Poland alone has a huge population, living in very differenct conditions, with very different desires and opinions than those of the original 6, let alone the rest of the 15. Its certainly possible that many of the Eastern European states will look upon France and Germany in the same way that France and Germany seem to look on the US now.

agreed it's not going to be easy and it's a process that is going to take a lot of time (years). 40 years back when the first steps were taken to integrate our economies there were also a lot of people who were convinced that it would not work out. It seemed impossible that 2 of the biggest enemies the world has ever seen (France and Germany) would work together. Today they are the biggest friends and the EU is a success story. Now about the problem of fragmentation of decision making. For years now there a plans to work with a "Europe of 2 speeds". Countries like Belgium, Germany, France, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, ....) are willing to integrate faster then others. Until now this was impossible because countries like Great-Britain are blocking a lot of the decision making on the EU level. What we are seeing now is that the "coalition of the willing" ;) is saying to the countries that are blocking, no problem, we are going to make agreements with the countries that want to move forward and you can always join later. Good example is the introduction of the euro. Countries that don't want to can always join later (and believe me -- eventually even GB will join).

In the future we're going to see 2 different sides within the EU. The camp that is willing to go faster and the others and it is my hope that the first camp given time will grow stronger. A major advantage is that 2 European giants are in the first camp. The new east-european EU candidate states should realize that their future depends of decisions made in Brussels and not in Washington. They are waiting for the big lump of cash coming their way when they can join the EU so I think we should use that on the negotation table. Basically we should say to those countries -- if you want to have the cash, you have to think European (it's arrogant but it's the only way to make progress). If you don't agree, no problem and go ask the people on capitol hill for your billions of euro.
I'm for a more efficient and stronger Europe not for a bigger Europe per se.