This is why I dislike German Engineering (BMW content/requested pics)

[Vdubchaos]

I've been working on cars for over 15 years (not a mechanic, mostly my own/family/friends cars). I used to be a big Euro snob (when I was stupid and ignorant ) and most of my time working on cars have been mostly on VW/Audi and BMW. I had 2 VWs past 15 years and have done all of my maintenance/fixing (anything from brakes, suspension, turbo upgrade, exhaust etc). I've also worked on other people's cars as I have been a member of # of VW/Audi clubs and have been servicing/maintaining/fixing my families cars (mostly BMWs).

To sum it up, here is what I have learned about German cars over the years.

German Engineering = overly expensive and complex for no apparent reason.

Some of the things I've seen as I worked on these cars really makes me scratch my head. I can't understand why they design things the way they do but my only guess is that they try to make it as hard as possible for owners to service these cars (at times). There is always # of items that are simple to work on replace. HOWEVER as the price goes up they really get into some weird shit.

Today's example is my mothers X5. Now keep in mind, past few years I have fixed # of these types of things and they all seem to share similar flavor. Poor design and flaws.

This is a 2006 BMW X5 3.0. This is last year model of E53. Few years ago her Air control buttons started falling off (that's right, freakin buttons don't even last). Keep in mind my mom drives this car 20 miles a day IF that and the car is almost brand new (40k miles on it currently). She is 65 and hardly ever uses the controls.

Of course using a normal simple dial switch would be out of the question on such a luxurious car....right? Sorry, but I will take that ANY day over this crap.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/passaturbo/BMW/IMG_9100_zpsffe2a05d.jpg

I bought the replacement part for 80-100 bucks and decided to change it out today. To pull out the console you simply unclip it from the dash (I used my nails, it came out easy). Sounds good.

Step too, unclip the outer cover (easy enough) and unplug the console (it's kind of shoddy as there is 10 pinns the slid out with no clip on the plug itself or anything. One has to be VERY careful putting it back as you can easily bend the pins/ruin the unit all together.

So next step is to take the metal plate out that holds the electrical board. There is 10 tabs and snaps out (pain in the ass). You can see the tabs in the picture.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/passaturbo/BMW/IMG_9101_zpsd85fb5af.jpg

SO here is the fun part. Each and every button has these things.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/passaturbo/BMW/IMG_9104_zpsc5e7a266.jpg

They are tiny and I had to use needle players to handle them. Of course each one has a metal bend on it that pops out as you remove the board (they fall out all over the place so one has to be careful). They couldn't be clipped in, no that would be too easy.

So one has to fix each one to make sure the little metal thing didn't snap out (or the button won't work).

Next step, put the plastic plate face down. You have to have something on the sides so that the buttons are not pressed in or each of these little pieces will pop out out of place. These DO NOT snap in. Here is a picture to give you an idea.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/passaturbo/BMW/IMG_9102_zpsceeecfc3.jpg
http://s9.photobucket.com/user/passaturbo/media/BMW/IMG_9105_zps818ee935.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6

And here is the fun part. Once you have all the little things in there, I had to get 2 of my kids to hold the sides (so they don't slide around or buttons get pressed as the little things will pop out of place). Then you have to bend the plastic away to get the Electrical board into place. Once the board is in you have to slide it down into position.

It took us exactly 5 tries to do it right. As each time one or 2 button pieces would fall out of place and I had to take the entire thing apart/align the pieces and slide in the board again. As we were working on it I really thought I would never get it to work/fix it. In the end we were successful and finally got all the buttons to work. pfew

As we were working on it my 10/11 year old sons both asked "why didn't they do it this way or that way" which would've made this SO much easier to do/service. Since I have Mechanical engineering experience and used to design parts I could've easily came up with 2-3 different ways to make this easier.

I have no idea what BMW design team was thinking on this one. Heck it makes me wonder if they were thinking AT ALL!!!

Both of my sons said they would never buy a BMW after this nightmare....personally I feel the same at this point. No thanks.

Give me old school dial knobs for controls ANY Day of the week.

This is a perfect example of German Engineering though. One of the reasons why Germans actually lost the war too. They do have talent but they simply over engineer things and make it too complex/expensive for it's own good.

And of course this doesn't apply to EVERYTHING on the car. There is plenty of examples of things that are pretty easy to work on even on this car. But this sort of thing REALLY makes you wonder....

Also, I had a chance to take some requested pictures of my mother's cars leatherrete seats. This is by far my favorite part of this car, that's right, VINYL seats have held up AMAZING. They are 7 years old and they look brand new. 0 maintenance needed. I will NOT say this about REAL leather that my step father has on his 328xi....

THat's right I would take "leatherrete" aka pleather/vinyl over leather ANY Day of the week and twice on sunday!!!

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/passaturbo/BMW/IMG_9108_zps3700ff0e.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/passaturbo/BMW/IMG_9107_zps76a2304c.jpg

Also here is requested pictures of the fake/piece of shit cracked "wood"
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/passaturbo/BMW/IMG_9109_zps344467a2.jpg

THis one has a crack going across it but it's hard to see
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/passaturbo/BMW/IMG_9110_zpsadf4a37a.jpg

That's all folks...

 

[Fern]

It's a cultural thing. I lived in Germany for a couple of years and even they joke about themselves needlessly over-engineering things. All things.

Fern

 

[vi edit]

I didn't have too many complaints about my VW Passat. Most things were fairly accessible and easy to do. Especially coming from the nightmare that was transverse mounted GM cars. *shudder*

I will say that the Siemens PBX system I had to install once was one of the most overly complicated, pain in the ass to program systems I've ever laid hands on. The Samsung and Nortel systems I worked with were remedial level in comparison. For the same functions.

 

[Throckmorton]

I think the mechanical engineering is good, based on my 1996 BMW. Things are well laid out and easy to repair. But interior quality is awful. There are many 1996 vehicles rolling around with perfectly fine interiors, but a 1996 BMW has door panels that are falling off. The buttons are stupid. I have to press a button 20 times and then do it AGAIN ON THE OTHER SIDE to adjust temperature and get the car to blow heat instead of cold, when with a knob I could just rotate it.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I've had two BMWs and both of them would nickel and dime you to death. The LCD displays they used to use were crap and always seemed to go out. The sunroof in my wife's 325i rattled like crazy and BMW said the only way to fix it was to replace the entire thing (they called it a cassette) to the tune of over $1,000. Fuck that.

 

[Jimzz]

Yep we have a E350 Mercedes and it needs major trans work, seat has a crack in it from wear, standard cracks in the steering wheel (very common in MB), steering rack has a leak, the sun roof shade will stick and then pop back violently with a loud crash, Nav system can't read the dvd every now and then, etc...

Now for a car with 125k that sounds a little high but ok right... how about 100k, 75k... nope car only has 50k on it. My wife HAD to have a European car, she said it would not be as bad s the SiL's audi. She now says, "sell it for whatever you can get and never again will we buy a European car".

 

[GTaudiophile]

10/10 Rant

5/10 Grammar

 

[JulesMaximus]

Yep we have a E350 Mercedes and it needs major trans work, seat has a crack in it from wear, standard cracks in the steering wheel (very common in MB), steering rack has a leak, the sun roof shade will stick and then pop back violently with a loud crash, Nav system can't read the dvd every now and then, etc...

Now for a car with 125k that sounds a little high but ok right... how about 100k, 75k... nope car only has 50k on it. My wife HAD to have a European car, she said it would not be as bad s the SiL's audi. She now says, "sell it for whatever you can get and never again will we buy a European car".

My wife and I are all about the Lexus brand now. Maintenance isn't cheap but we've had no issues with the car that weren't fixed under warranty and they give us "free" loaner cars even when we take it in for an oil change.

No fucking way I'd ever buy an Audi.

 

[2timer]

Pain in the ass and I'd imagine about impossible to find parts at a junkyard.

I don't like German cars because, well, I'm poor

 

[SparkyJJO]

My coworker has a Jetta.

Never again he said.

 

[deadken]

I owned a 1981 BMW 320is. That car was extremely simple and rugged. Wonderful to drive. Easy to maintain. If you knew what you were doing, you could steer it with your right foot (I *loved* my 320is). Ohh yeah, great MPG too!

Only downside was expensive parts.

I still look for another every now and then on CL or Cars.com.

Of course, anything newer and I'd stay away from most of them...

You see, the older cars might have been over-engineered, but not so much that it was a problem. The newer cars.... Well, I can see why they are problematic.

FWIW: I also have owned a 1985 MB 300 Turbo Diesel. Another GREAT car (wife crashed it). Again, expensive parts, but rugged, reliable, and good MPG given the weight / comfort / etc... I don't think a better material has ever been made since MB Tex.

Ohh, and I currently own a 1988 VW Jetta. That car should be rated in Smiles-Per-Gallon. Of course, there are things that go wrong with it, but it doesn't usually surprise you. It's like you know all of the things that typically go wrong with these older cars and you just wait for them to happen to yours...

You see, it isn't that all German cars are bad. But, I agree that most new ones can be so over engineered that they are just too complicated. I remember the early cars having everything on them serviceable. You could change the little bulb in the hazard switch on that 1981 BMW 320, while you couldn't do that on any of the Japanese cars (of course, the Japanese used LED's, so they didn't burn out). But my point is that everything was made for people to service. Most everything was made for people with 'normal' sized hands to fix. Today, everything is so jammed / crammed in, I don't like to touch new cars.

 

[halik]

Yep we have a E350 Mercedes and it needs major trans work, seat has a crack in it from wear, standard cracks in the steering wheel (very common in MB), steering rack has a leak, the sun roof shade will stick and then pop back violently with a loud crash, Nav system can't read the dvd every now and then, etc...

Now for a car with 125k that sounds a little high but ok right... how about 100k, 75k... nope car only has 50k on it. My wife HAD to have a European car, she said it would not be as bad s the SiL's audi. She now says, "sell it for whatever you can get and never again will we buy a European car".

No warranty + cant DIY = ^^^. I can pretty much guarantee you that car doesn't need major trans work and you're getting bent by who ever told you that, 722.6 transmission are pretty much bulletproof. I have one in my 911.

My mom sold her C230 with 150K miles, only issue was accessory belt tensioner.

 

[phucheneh]

Generally speaking, German cars are the devil offspring of Hitler and and the similarly-mustachioed evil twins of John Delorean and Lee Iacocca.

Well. 'More evil twins' would be the way to put it, I guess. Mix in a little bastard downs-baby offspring of Henry Ford. And a couple really smart dudes names Hans and Frans.

If they could figure out a way to do it, they would reinvent the wheel. With spectacularly horrific results. ('but it worked in ze laboratory, mein fuhrer!')

 

[hans007]

even BMW learns eventually.

i have a current model bmw.

the cup holders are not snap out spring loaded things that can break / not really hold cups anymore.

the climate controls are... knobs now.

then again, i wouldn't say its any easier on any other car. i took apart the center console of an acura before when i had one to replace a trim piece that got ink all over it from a pen that broke....

took forever. broke a whole lots of little clips and such. had to buy new clips etc.

 

[Dari]

I have a 2011 X5 right now with like 8K miles on it. Got it brand new. But, unlike the MDX I've had before, it's giving me strange problems (like the smell of diesel in the cabin). I baby it like I babied my MDX but these problems just crop up. Anyway, we're going back to an MDX because the new, just announced 2014 models have fixed a major flaw in the earlier MDXs, 18/27 MPG compared to the earlier 16/21 MPG. This was primarily why I went with diesel in the first place. Now I can have the reliability of a Honda coupled with excellent gas mileage and not have to deal with diesel anymore. I can't wait until September comes around.

 

[Vdubchaos]

You see, it isn't that all German cars are bad. But, I agree that most new ones can be so over engineered that they are just too complicated. I remember the early cars having everything on them serviceable. You could change the little bulb in the hazard switch on that 1981 BMW 320, while you couldn't do that on any of the Japanese cars (of course, the Japanese used LED's, so they didn't burn out). But my point is that everything was made for people to service. Most everything was made for people with 'normal' sized hands to fix. Today, everything is so jammed / crammed in, I don't like to touch new cars.

Correct, older German cars were much simpler/less complex. Although Germans always had issues with electronics, back then their cars weren't equipped with too much of it.

Let's face it, 80s W123 Mercedes is still probably the most reliable MB/German car ever produced.

Truth is, they should probably focus on getting electronic basics right. And unfortunately they focus on putting more electronic crap into their cars then ever before.......they tell you it's "innovation" and cutting edge.

Same here, ALL new cars scare me. We have 1999, 2000 and 2001 cars....and I don't really want to buy a new car AT ALL.

Cars are simply more disposable then they have ever been (it seems).

 

[Vdubchaos]

10/10 Rant

5/10 Grammar

It was late last night and wife was calling......I was in hurry. Sorry teach.

I didn't have too many complaints about my VW Passat.

Passat owner of 15 years ....over 250k miles....

In general my passat has been reliable by Passat forum standards/German car standards. It also has been modified. It currently sits broken down (down to a compression test,I think it's time for an engine rebuild). I checked spark plugs, Injectors, infamous ICM, Coil packs etc......it doesn't idle well and it misfires at wide open throttle. It even has my mechanic stumped (he is a VW master mechanic of 18 years). Up next (when I care enough) I will check the compression......I just don't have money or time to throw at it. It is my baby though.

I had 2 over the years. One was totalled by some idiot that hit me from the back. So I took everything off and applied it to a 2nd one.

Passat#1
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/passaturbo/Cars/passaturbonium7.jpg
Passat#2
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/passaturbo/Passat 2/P1080275.jpg

But I've seen MANY Passat owners go thru some crazy shit as well over the years.....I consider myself VERY Lucky.

And even a simple B5 passat has it's weird design quirks. For example, Cat Converter> Downpipe connector is in one of the weirdest places. I had to take it off 3/4 times (Exhaust upgrade, Typical Cat flange failure) and each time I scratched my head. WHy in the world would they put the connection so high in the engine bay.

YOu need a 20" extension and swivel socket to get to it....and it's a BIG PITA.

On top of it, to get it back on, you need 2 people (both with 20" extensions on each side).

They could've moved it down close to the bottom of the car...but no, that would make sense you know?

 

[Jimzz]

No warranty + cant DIY = ^^^. I can pretty much guarantee you that car doesn't need major trans work and you're getting bent by who ever told you that, 722.6 transmission are pretty much bulletproof. I have one in my 911.

My mom sold her C230 with 150K miles, only issue was accessory belt tensioner.

I'm a mechanic the trans needs at least a full valve body rebuild. If that does not fix it then its in the clutch pack and requires a rebuild. I've already changed the fluid and filter and checked the other external common issue the 722.6 is known for.

And no the 722.6 are NOT bullet proof. There are piles of aftermarket "fix's" for the valve body issues alone, let alone there are 6 versions of the 722.6 and none of them are perfect.

My wife and I are all about the Lexus brand now. Maintenance isn't cheap but we've had no issues with the car that weren't fixed under warranty and they give us "free" loaner cars even when we take it in for an oil change.

No fucking way I'd ever buy an Audi.

Its funny you say that. She wanted to get another audi. When I pointed out all the common issues to look for and told her the maintaince now required on the direct injections she took my advice and looked at the Nissan, Lexus, and one other. She ended up getting the convertible Lexus. She got the 350 not the 250 due to the 250's direct injection.

 

[halik]

I'm a mechanic the trans needs at least a full valve body rebuild. If that does not fix it then its in the clutch pack and requires a rebuild. I've already changed the fluid and filter and checked the other external common issue the 722.6 is known for.

And no the 722.6 are NOT bullet proof. There are piles of aftermarket "fix's" for the valve body issues alone, let alone there are 6 versions of the 722.6 and none of them are perfect.

Interesting, usually these sorts of comments come from peopel that buy used lux cars w/o warranty and then get sticker shock from $120+/hr labor.
Stupid question, but you've changed out the fluid/filter and topped it off warmed up to the exact temp to make sure the volume is correct, right?

Did the fluid change make it any better? The post 2000 (2002?) cars didn't include a drain plug on the TC, so you're only changing maybe 50% of the fluid when you drain it.


At 50K miles this still shouldn't be a fluid issue. The one thing to check is to make sure you're not actually having electrical problems, apparently the grounding on the conductor plate that sits atop the valve body can get iffy and the trans doesn't get clean pulses to shift. It's a 130 dollar part:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-TRANSMISSION-CONDUCTOR-PLATE-GENUINE-722-6xx-/260838608667



I've head of valve body issues with the 722.9 7-speed, but 722.6 they've put in just about everything starting in 97, including chryslers, porsches etc etc. Mechanically these are known to be solid.

 

[Vdubchaos]

PS, I'm SHOCKED at the responses here. I thought I was going to get my ass chewed for even daring to say anything bad about BMW/german cars.

(seemed like there was TON of Euro snobs around here).....aka BMW humpers.

I was going to add this to my original post but here is another example. Apparently BMW can't even design a door handle mechanism worth a shit. This happened to my mom's X5 as well. When I took off the broken mechanism I was shocked BMW designed it this way. They could've made the metal piece wider and used stronger metal...but no.

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/x5-e53-forum/52359-broken-outside-door-handle-fix.html

Its funny you say that. She wanted to get another audi. When I pointed out all the common issues to look for and told her the maintaince now required on the direct injections she took my advice and looked at the Nissan, Lexus, and one other. She ended up getting the convertible Lexus. She got the 350 not the 250 due to the 250's direct injection.

Entire "direct injection" thing is scary (to me)....and a big turn off.

I don't think I would buy a car that has it at this point.....YET, EVERYONE is heading that way.

Figure 5-10 more years the technology will improve/become more reliable...who knows. I said that 5 years ago and it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Doppel]

OP sucks at cars and mechanics and has no understanding of what he is criticizing, so should STFU.

PS, I'm SHOCKED at the responses here. I thought I was going to get my ass chewed for even daring to say anything bad about BMW/german cars.

You mean like I just said?

I was joking, though

Your experience is partly why I am so biased to new vehicles now. After years of working on cars myself I just got absolutely tired of it, though I never had to work on a German one.

Whenever something is engineered and is very complex it is either: Amazingly smart/genius (e.g. space shuttle), or amazingly stupid (gonna use Michelin's PAX tires as an example; overpriced and a failed product due to silliness in design). I liken it to poorly written code, consisting of layer upon layer of "Oh crap I missed that, I'll just shoe this in to cover it". End result you end up with a face plate like the one you have, with buttons that seem (to my eyes) to solve a question that was answered by $.99 calculators made 20 years ago.

But then this is Germany, the country responsible for that Mercedes that used hydraulics for all the power windows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_600

I guess it's a risk of bleeding edge. German engineering does get a lot right, for the record.

 

[JCH13]

10/10 Rant

5/10 Grammar

2/10 macro photography



Don't forget your sense of humor.

Seriously though, my one point of knowledge here is that BMW designs entirely different door locking mechanisms for every tier of car, 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, etc. Not sure if that's still true or not. They make a great driving experience, but aren't the most efficient engineers in the world.

 

[Vdubchaos]

They make a great driving experience, but aren't the most efficient engineers in the world.

Not even. Most new BMWs I drove made me feel disconnected from the car.

Not sure what it is (maybe electrical steering or something) but I just don't feel that mechanical connection to the car.

If feels "Toyota" like. Light, little feedback.....just meh

On the other hand, BMW of the 70s/80s and 90s was COMPLETELY different.

Driving E30 M3 gave me a connection to the car that VERY few cars have ever given me.

PS. still my all time favorite BMW. Chances are, it always will be.

 

[ThatsABigOne]

Same thing could be said of British engineering, except the quality of workmanship is incredibly low, and you will have random, even simple stuff break! For that reason alone, I rarely drive my 1972 Jaguar XJ6.

 

[Vdubchaos]

Same thing could be said of British engineering, except the quality of workmanship is incredibly low, and you will have random, even simple stuff break! For that reason alone, I rarely drive my 1972 Jaguar XJ6.

Ohh god, British engineering makes German engineers look good!!!

I never had a English car, and I will never had one (I've seen my share of English car owners)