This is What Winning Looks Like (Afghanistan)

[crashtestdummy]

I can't watch the videos at work, but the folks I know who've been there (in the US government, no less) have more or less said there's no hope, and that we're basically holding up a facade over a crumbling facade. If our goal was to establish a working democracy there, there was no way we were going to succeed.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Nooooo, it's not the fault of "people" that choose to live and act like cavemen. It's the civilized world's fault because we didn't give enough dignity to them.

Oh wait, that will be an insult to the actual cavemen that once existed since they have the valid excuse of not knowing better.

This American woman remembers a different Afghanistan then you do. How did you go about learning the history of Afghanistan?

King's Hill in Paghman Gardens. "If you look at photos of the devastation of Europe or Asia after WWII and compare them with what you see nowadays or from pre-war times, you can get a similar feeling while looking at these photos from Afghanistan in the late 1960s... Perhaps looking at these old pictures when Afghanistan was a land of peace can encourage folks to see Afghanistan and its people as they were and could be. It is important to know that we have more in common with people in other lands than what separates us." - Peg Podlich

Afghan girls coming home from school. "Afghan girls, as well as boys, were educated up to the high school level, and although girls (and boys) wore uniforms, the girls were not allowed to wear a chadri (burka) on their way to secondary school. Able young women attended college, as did the men." - Peg Podlich

http://imgur.com/a/LdHsL#6

http://www.businessinsider.com/asto...w-everyday-life-in-peaceful-kabul-2013-2?op=1

Girl and Boy Scouts of Afghanistan

 

[TallBill]

I was there 8 years ago, seems like no improvements have been made. I'd love to go back before its "done". Need to watch the whole thing later.

 

[StrangerGuy]

This American woman remembers a different Afghanistan then you do. How did you go about learning the history of Afghanistan?

Oh, I get it. Germany now must be still full of evil Nazis because they existed back then in 1930-40s. Excuse me while I find a 2013 neonazi pic to use here to prove my point...

 

[Farang]

I've watched a lot of their documentaries, I like the ones from Africa about the child soldiers and some of the crazy war leaders they had. I forget the name of the documentary.

I watch them as entertainment though, they have such a HUGE bias in every documentary they do that sometimes even on issues I have no knowledge or opinion on previously, it's very off putting.

Curious what bias you see there? I guess there is a general cynicism and criticism of global business and political practices, but it just comes naturally from reporting on the dirtier corners of the world.

An example I think of is the episode where they go to Eastern Congo to show the mines. It is critical of many things but mostly just by explaining all the shit they run into trying to film to mines.

As someone who has traveled the world extensively I do not see their angle as 'bias,' but as reality. The world is a shitty shitty place and takes a constant asking of 'who benefits' to explain accurately.

I just don't see a lot of bias there beyond a general 'wow this place is fucked up' attitude

 

[Orignal Earl]

Oh, I get it.

No..I don't think you do.
What these people are saying is that Afghanistan was a nice place until decades of war destroyed it, and that allowed extremists to gain power.

 

[AdamantC]

You see much of the same thing in current and former communist nations, not to mention Africa. There has simply been so much damage, chaos, and mental and psychical rape of the populace over such a long period it is doubtful they will ever recover as a people before they completely self immolate.

And the scary part is that things are going to get much worse over there when all the oil drys up.

 

[Nintendesert]

Curious what bias you see there? I guess there is a general cynicism and criticism of global business and political practices, but it just comes naturally from reporting on the dirtier corners of the world.

An example I think of is the episode where they go to Eastern Congo to show the mines. It is critical of many things but mostly just by explaining all the shit they run into trying to film to mines.

As someone who has traveled the world extensively I do not see their angle as 'bias,' but as reality. The world is a shitty shitty place and takes a constant asking of 'who benefits' to explain accurately.

I just don't see a lot of bias there beyond a general 'wow this place is fucked up' attitude

There's just been a few too many condescending remarks made throughout some of the documentaries, too many judgements of how people live. I'd have to go and watch the documentaries again, but the one where they make their own moonshine based on bananas I think it was and how the entire country is drunk was one with a lot of judgements. I like my documentaries to be free of their own reactions to it, present me with how things are and let me come to my own conclusions. I do appreciate their descriptions on when things smell bad though.

They are however still worth watching, some better than others, but I think all of the ones coming out of Africa are great overall.

 

[Farang]

There's just been a few too many condescending remarks made throughout some of the documentaries, too many judgements of how people live. I'd have to go and watch the documentaries again, but the one where they make their own moonshine based on bananas I think it was and how the entire country is drunk was one with a lot of judgements. I like my documentaries to be free of their own reactions to it, present me with how things are and let me come to my own conclusions. I do appreciate their descriptions on when things smell bad though.

They are however still worth watching, some better than others, but I think all of the ones coming out of Africa are great overall.

If that is how you like your documentaries then Vice may not be for you, but I'd say that is more a matter of taste than Vice having any sort of bias. They color the presentation by having a host's reaction to it.. it isn't a BBC documentary.

The moonshine piece you mentioned, yes it involved a lot of shock by the hosts and crew, because the situations were shocking. They definitely brought their American perspectives and reacted as Americans might to the situation there. But in terms of editing and their lines of questioning I did not see any agenda, aside from basic human dignity

As a comparison I recently watched a doc on a Saudi prince by the BBC. Very formal and well presented. But unlike Vice you never got the behind the scenes shots, which would have shown how in control that prince was of the filming and his messaging. In that way I find it less honest than a doc by Vice. This prince would've never allowed this filming without an agenda and likely the crew was directed on what to shoot/not shoot. Ends up looking like a polished show but I find Vice more honest

 

[1prophet]

This American woman remembers a different Afghanistan then you do. How did you go about learning the history of Afghanistan?





http://imgur.com/a/LdHsL#6

http://www.businessinsider.com/asto...w-everyday-life-in-peaceful-kabul-2013-2?op=1


Girl and Boy Scouts of Afghanistan

Afghan girls coming home from school. "Afghan girls, as well as boys, were educated up to the high school level, and although girls (and boys) wore uniforms, the girls were not allowed to wear a chadri (burka) on their way to secondary school. Able young women attended college, as did the men." - Peg Podlich

Because they knew what the burka was all about, but today it is defended as part of culture by the many schizo so called liberal apologists in the west and if you question it you are some sort of Islamophobe.:whiste:

Yet if a woman was to dress like this in the west these same types wouldn't think twice about calling it oppression and misogynistic.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Because they knew what the burka was all about, but today it is defended as part of culture by the many schizo so called liberal apologists in the west and if you question it you are some sort of Islamophobe.:whiste:

Yet if a woman was to dress like this in the west these same types wouldn't think twice about calling it oppression and misogynistic.

Looks like they treated it the way France does now.
I have no idea what liberal apologists in the west think
I'm sure a certain tea partyer and some rightwingers on this board are all for banning the burka and yet have no problems about Christians doing the same thing

 

[gevorg]

The opium production is sure winning after NATO invasion:

 

[Orignal Earl]

The opium production is sure winning after NATO invasion:

The Chinese destroying the Buddhist temples and statues for copper mines doesn't seem to bother people either, like it did when the Taliban were doing it

 

[iGas]

I was a Seabee there and we did a lot of good...at least it seemed that way. The Marine major in the documentary summed it up perfectly. Even though this infrastructure was provided no one could even possibly begin to use it. It was quickly scrapped or just rotted into an unservicable state.

I'm not going to lie, when you are around these men it's like your walking around a bunch of cave men. They are either high as a kite or just numb to everything around them...like the walking dead.

Everything is a game to them because everything we consider normal they have zero understanding of. I didn't leave all fucked up but I sure have a different view of our world.

I'm sure that there are many bad seeds that strives in war and chaos, but you have to understand is that wars bring the worst out of people. Perhaps there many good people who are still stuck in such situation because they do not have anywhere to go, but the majority of the good people who can get away from the fighting are all ready ran away from it. Hence, leaving the majority of the bad seeds in the area that is full of death and hatred.

Have you ever stop and think that the rest of the people who is left in the war torn area do not have much to look forward to, and perhaps they they gave up because their entire country, family, lively hood has been turned upside down by foreign invaders?

I remembered hearing how degrading and rude the comments from American during and after the Vietnam War, because they were foreign invader looking in at Vietnamese. But, the tune has changed long after the war, because American now realized that the Vietnamese are not the ignorant gooks that they once thought that they are.

IMHO, the same mentality still exists today toward the American Blacks, Mexican, and natives.

 

[OBLAMA2009]

they should have called that "worse than 'nam..." . i cant fuggen believe people in this country arent up in arms about this stupid war crap esp when there are so many problems here at home. americans are retarded when it comes to supporting any type of war out of "patriotism"

 

[Agent11]

If there was a draft things would be different.

 

[irishScott]

If there was a draft things would be different.

A draft of what? Afghans? They'll just desert.

 

[nextJin]

If there was a draft things would be different.

As a member of the military I'll pass. I got too much to worry about as it is. If I had to deal with a bunch of PO'ed kids who didn't want to be there I'd go insane

 

[Emos]

As a member of the military I'll pass. I got too much to worry about as it is. If I had to deal with a bunch of PO'ed kids who didn't want to be there I'd go insane

Logically I would never want to return to a military draft for the reasons you just mentioned. That said, sometimes I wonder if the American public would be much more conservative about using our Armed Forces if there was a draft. Not having any skin in the game generally leads people to not give a crap with what we do overseas and what happens to our soldiers. After all, if its not them or their child, who cares? You also get the "well they signed up for it, they know what they're getting into" mentality and thus it's easier to use them in whatever the crisis dujour is. Perhaps I'm just feeling a bit too cynical today...

 

[OBLAMA2009]

If there was a draft things would be different.

why should there be a draft? why should there be a war at all? we have NO reason to be there, no americans should be risking anything over there

 

[Emos]

why should there be a draft? why should there be a war at all? we have NO reason to be there, no americans should be risking anything over there

As mentioned previously I think war making is so much easier without a draft, as many people just don't give a care otherwise. It's one thing to say billions of dollars is being wasted in a rathole, but when someone's physical ass is actually on the line that's when they stand up and protest.

 

[nextJin]

Logically I would never want to return to a military draft for the reasons you just mentioned. That said, sometimes I wonder if the American public would be much more conservative about using our Armed Forces if there was a draft. Not having any skin in the game generally leads people to not give a crap with what we do overseas and what happens to our soldiers. After all, if its not them or their child, who cares? You also get the "well they signed up for it, they know what they're getting into" mentality and thus it's easier to use them in whatever the crisis dujour is. Perhaps I'm just feeling a bit too cynical today...

I get it but that never made college kids or political kids getting their skin in the game.

Like I said in another thread, if there was a law forcing decision makers to have their children or spouses to go fight we would see peace for a long ass time.

 

[shortylickens]

I was a Seabee there and we did a lot of good...at least it seemed that way. The Marine major in the documentary summed it up perfectly. Even though this infrastructure was provided no one could even possibly begin to use it. It was quickly scrapped or just rotted into an unservicable state.

I'm not going to lie, when you are around these men it's like your walking around a bunch of cave men. They are either high as a kite or just numb to everything around them...like the walking dead.

Everything is a game to them because everything we consider normal they have zero understanding of. I didn't leave all fucked up but I sure have a different view of our world.

I only spent a couple months there supporting marines and my opinion was those people dont really want to change. They want help if they are losing but EVERYBODY wants that. Doesnt mean they will ever actually accomplish anything.

 

[Emos]

I get it but that never made college kids or political kids getting their skin in the game.

Like I said in another thread, if there was a law forcing decision makers to have their children or spouses to go fight we would see peace for a long ass time.

True that. It's the middle class and poor who would bear the brunt of the draft and the spawn of the political elites pretty much get off scot free. Wish I had an easy answer.
Even though I am glad that Nixon ended the draft (a positive accomplishment IMO) I've heard that some of the reasoning behind it was that it was cynically assessed that the majority of the Vietnam protestors were doing so just to save their own bacon. Ideological opposition ran a distant second. When the draft ended, the number of people protesting dropped dramatically, this reinforcing that theory. Even though I'm glad it was ended, the subsequent overuse and misuse of our volunteer military is an unintended consequence of said action.

 

[OBLAMA2009]

"the majority of the Vietnam protestors were doing so just to save their own bacon." why isnt that a legitimate reason to oppose war. fug dat, that would be my number one reason for protesting a war, if i were being sent there to waste my life. theres nothing wrong with lower and middle class people opposing war for self preservation, any more that for powerful people. rich and powerful people are always opposed to war---for themselves.