This is what oversite failure looks like, the F35

[hal2kilo]

Wow, I won't spoil the story, but you can't believe what this plane really can't do safely. As someone who worked for one of it's competitors, and knowing things about the military contracting world I find it completely irresponsible that we've ended up with this turkey with barely a peep.
I'm sure Lockheed spread the money around throughout the states, after all, it's still a jobs program.

Even by Pentagon terms, this was a dud: The disastrous saga of the F-35 | Salon.com

 

[shortylickens]

Almost all military contracts are horribly bloated and the result is often shitty hardware or services to the military. A lot of stuff we had the in the Navy was pure garbage and overpriced besides. Those OBA's were a nightmare. The F-18 was horrible. Too expensive, broke easily, needed tons of maintenance.

We really gotta start checking up on the congressmen that award these contracts. And kill them.

 

[nickqt]

Wow, I won't spoil the story, but you can't believe what this plane really can't do safely. As someone who worked for one of it's competitors, and knowing things about the military contracting world I find it completely irresponsible that we've ended up with this turkey with barely a peep.
I sure Lockheed spread the money around throughout the states, after all, it's still a jobs program.

Even by Pentagon terms, this was a dud: The disastrous saga of the F-35 | Salon.com

Socialism for the Military Industrial Complex.

Free-market go fuck yourself capitalism for actual living people.

It's what makes America Great or whatever.

 

[IronWing]

The F35s are also so damn loud, cities are saying, "no, thank you" to having them based at the local air force base.

 

[Indus]

So since the military industrial complex can't get their money on the F35.. lets invade a country.. I suggest Mexico.. gotta get Cancun vacations for Ted Cruz!

 

[pauldun170]

Wow, I won't spoil the story, but you can't believe what this plane really can't do safely. As someone who worked for one of it's competitors, and knowing things about the military contracting world I find it completely irresponsible that we've ended up with this turkey with barely a peep.
I sure Lockheed spread the money around throughout the states, after all, it's still a jobs program.

Even by Pentagon terms, this was a dud: The disastrous saga of the F-35 | Salon.com

That Salon is a lazy editorial taking advantage of the blogger driven crap from several years ago. It's misleading. It's opinion driven in absence of accurate information and written to take advantage of everyones ignorance on programs.

Debunking Misconceptions: Reports of Ferrari F-35's Demise Are Exaggerated

Explore the reality behind reports of the F-35's demise with Airforce Technology. Delve into insightful features debunking exaggerated claims and analyzing

www.airforce-technology.com

I can go into detail if you like but what it comes down to is that his focus is working on the F-22 replacement (under development) and dealing with the immediate need of worn out F-16's, F-15's being wasted on COIN operations in the middle east.

F-22's and F-35's flying over Iraq\Afghanistan and Syria is a waste.
F-22's are no longer being built as well architecturally obsolete and its critical to make sure its replacement is funded.
F-35's are fine

 

[cytg111]

So since the military industrial complex can't get their money on the F35.. lets invade a country.. I suggest Mexico.. gotta get Cancun vacations for Ted Cruz!

I gave you a haha emoji though I understand your intent is tragic irony(there is a word here that escapes me)

 

[Fenixgoon]

The F35 was doomed from the its inception. No way a single aircraft with a common architecture would be able to fulfill the requirements of air force, navy, and marine corps without making 3 more or less unique planes. Which is pretty much what lockheed did in the end.

 

[hal2kilo]

That Salon is a lazy editorial taking advantage of the blogger driven crap from several years ago. It's misleading. It's opinion driven in absence of accurate information and written to take advantage of everyones ignorance on programs.

Debunking Misconceptions: Reports of Ferrari F-35's Demise Are Exaggerated

Explore the reality behind reports of the F-35's demise with Airforce Technology. Delve into insightful features debunking exaggerated claims and analyzing

www.airforce-technology.com

I can go into detail if you like but what it comes down to is that his focus is working on the F-22 replacement (under development) and dealing with the immediate need of worn out F-16's, F-15's being wasted on COIN operations in the middle east.

F-22's and F-35's flying over Iraq\Afghanistan and Syria is a waste.
F-22's are no longer being built as well architecturally obsolete and its critical to make sure its replacement is funded.
F-35's are fine

Really.

Inside America’s Dysfunctional Trillion-Dollar Fighter-Jet Program - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

F-35 Far from Ready to Face Current or Future Threats, Testing Data Shows (pogo.org)

The F-35 still has hundreds of problems the Pentagon has no plans on fixing (taskandpurpose.com)

 

[nickqt]

Really.

Inside America’s Dysfunctional Trillion-Dollar Fighter-Jet Program - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

F-35 Far from Ready to Face Current or Future Threats, Testing Data Shows (pogo.org)

The F-35 still has hundreds of problems the Pentagon has no plans on fixing (taskandpurpose.com)

That Salon is a lazy editorial taking advantage of the blogger driven crap from several years ago. It's misleading. It's opinion driven in absence of accurate information and written to take advantage of everyones ignorance on programs.

Debunking Misconceptions: Reports of Ferrari F-35's Demise Are Exaggerated

Explore the reality behind reports of the F-35's demise with Airforce Technology. Delve into insightful features debunking exaggerated claims and analyzing

www.airforce-technology.com

I can go into detail if you like but what it comes down to is that his focus is working on the F-22 replacement (under development) and dealing with the immediate need of worn out F-16's, F-15's being wasted on COIN operations in the middle east.

F-22's and F-35's flying over Iraq\Afghanistan and Syria is a waste.
F-22's are no longer being built as well architecturally obsolete and its critical to make sure its replacement is funded.
F-35's are fine

I have to ask, what threats are F35s going to protect the United States from? The elite Cuban Air Force? An attack by China on the US in order to destroy it's largest trade partner? A Russian attack in order to bring about a nuclear holocaust?

How many more Air Craft Carriers filled with F35s, and nuclear missiles, do we need to buy, in order to not be "threatened" by the boogieman?

It's a massive fucking racket that has hollowed out this country the past 70 years, and we're still like fish in water, unable to see it all around us because it's "just there".

 

[pauldun170]

Really.

Inside America’s Dysfunctional Trillion-Dollar Fighter-Jet Program - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

F-35 Far from Ready to Face Current or Future Threats, Testing Data Shows (pogo.org)

The F-35 still has hundreds of problems the Pentagon has no plans on fixing (taskandpurpose.com)

Really.
I see the date on those articles so I'm going to make some assumptions on the talking points. Will see about responding by tomorrow night with detaild

 

[pauldun170]

I have to ask, what threats are F35s going to protect the United States from? The elite Cuban Air Force? An attack by China on the US in order to destroy it's largest trade partner? A Russian attack in order to bring about a nuclear holocaust?

How many more Air Craft Carriers filled with F35s, and nuclear missiles, do we need to buy, in order to not be "threatened" by the boogieman?

It's a massive fucking racket that has hollowed out this country the past 70 years, and we're still like fish in water, unable to see it all around us because it's "just there".

This is a legit question . unfortunatey Americans like killing foriegners

 

[Fenixgoon]

This is a legit question . unfortunatey Americans like killing foriegners

It also means you can't project power anymore, at least in the traditional sense. Part of why the US can do what it can on the international stage is because of its ability to project power and the simultaneous inability of rivals to pose a legitimate threat.

also, yeah. we do i wish that would change.

 

[akugami]

Almost all military contracts are horribly bloated and the result is often shitty hardware or services to the military. A lot of stuff we had the in the Navy was pure garbage and overpriced besides. Those OBA's were a nightmare. The F-18 was horrible. Too expensive, broke easily, needed tons of maintenance.

We really gotta start checking up on the congressmen that award these contracts. And kill them.

Your comments are ambiguious. Kill what? The congresscritters or the contract? Both? 🤞

 

[Zorba]

Almost all military contracts are horribly bloated and the result is often shitty hardware or services to the military. A lot of stuff we had the in the Navy was pure garbage and overpriced besides. Those OBA's were a nightmare. The F-18 was horrible. Too expensive, broke easily, needed tons of maintenance.

We really gotta start checking up on the congressmen that award these contracts. And kill them.

I've worked aerospace basically my whole career, military and commercial, engine and air frame. What the military puts the aircraft through is extreme and there are legitimate reasons why engine life, for example, is 1/20th on military vs commercial. Performance is king, so you trade off life and the usage is much more extreme.

That said, the military does a lot of this to themselves. The contracting is fucking terrible, they refuse to embrace commercial maintenance, airworthiness, certification, etc to their own peril. Every single platform is ran like it's own company. They buy shitty aftermarket parts from companies that have no business producing go cart parts, much less aircraft parts. Contracts have so much bullshit in them to make sure you aren't screwing the government that they cost twice as much as they should, etc.

And of course, the requirements change constantly.

All that being said, the F-35 was ill-conceived from day one, had no chance to be successful. The (arguably) worser platform was selected. Then it has been dragged out so long the requirements and vision has changed numerous times. At the end of the day Obama should've killed the F-35 and kept the F-22, which has it's own problems but at least it is a good aircraft.

Another thing causing bloat is the F-35 has one engine option, and no directly competing airframes, Pratt and Lockheed can charge whatever they want. If nothing else, the military should go back to the days where they could tell Pratt "your price sucks, we own these drawings, we are going to have GE build them." But companies have gotten very good at claiming IP rights over drawings the government paid for.

 

[brandonbull]

I have to ask, what threats are F35s going to protect the United States from? The elite Cuban Air Force? An attack by China on the US in order to destroy it's largest trade partner? A Russian attack in order to bring about a nuclear holocaust?

How many more Air Craft Carriers filled with F35s, and nuclear missiles, do we need to buy, in order to not be "threatened" by the boogieman?

It's a massive fucking racket that has hollowed out this country the past 70 years, and we're still like fish in water, unable to see it all around us because it's "just there".

We have to fight them Russians and keep troops in Europe. C'mon man, get with the 1980's.

 

[brycejones]

We have to fight them Russians and keep troops in Europe. C'mon man, get with the 1980's.

Most strategists look at China as the emerging conventional military threat. Russia is seen as more asymmetric and focused on information warfare.

 

[pauldun170]

Another thing causing bloat is the F-35 has one engine option, and no directly competing airframes, Pratt and Lockheed can charge whatever they want. If nothing else, the military should go back to the days where they could tell Pratt "your price sucks, we own these drawings, we are going to have GE build them." But companies have gotten very good at claiming IP rights over drawings the government paid for.

The f135 was based on the existing F22 f119 engine.
GE's f136 entry was based on a GE's variable cycle engine that got turned down during the original ATF project.

This is a situation of pick your battles.
The decisions was made back when costs were skyrocketing and prior to the program reset they did in 2012 which ended up fixing a lot of the issues that people brought up.
- Fund 2 engines now and hope capitalisms\competition brings prices down some point in the future.
- Fund 1 engine and save money now.

Both engines met the power targets.
The F135 was judged the less risky design. The F136 was a rework of an engine that never saw production.

Now lets look at this from a big picture perspective.

USAF starts work on defining adaptive engine for future fighter

US Air Force officials have taken the first concrete step towards defining a new class of adaptive jet engines to power the next generation of combat aircraft that come after the Lockheed Martin F-35.

www.flightglobal.com

You should not stress over a funding decision made years ago.

"no directly competing airframes"
The X32 was not as a good design and deserved to lose.

 

[Zorba]

The f135 was based on the existing F22 f119 engine.
GE's f136 entry was based on a GE's variable cycle engine that got turned down during the original ATF project.

This is a situation of pick your battles.
The decisions was made back when costs were skyrocketing and prior to the program reset they did in 2012 which ended up fixing a lot of the issues that people brought up.
- Fund 2 engines now and hope capitalisms\competition brings prices down some point in the future.
- Fund 1 engine and save money now.

Both engines met the power targets.
The F135 was judged the less risky design. The F136 was a rework of an engine that never saw production.

Now lets look at this from a big picture perspective.

USAF starts work on defining adaptive engine for future fighter

US Air Force officials have taken the first concrete step towards defining a new class of adaptive jet engines to power the next generation of combat aircraft that come after the Lockheed Martin F-35.

www.flightglobal.com

You should not stress over a funding decision made years ago.

"no directly competing airframes"
The X32 was not as a good design and deserved to lose.

Yes, the F135 was much more mature than the F136. But the price of the F135 jumped after the F136 was killed. You also run the risk of grounding the entire fleet when a systematic engine issue occurs.

Not as big of deal if you have a competing airframe, such as F-15 vs F-16, or F-22 vs F-15. When you are guaranteed to get all future sales, prices tend to go way up.

The real problem is development costs are out of control, and have been for a very long time, so you can't afford to develop multiple airframes and engines any more. Some of this because of more complexity, tougher requirements, more optimization, but a lot of it, IMHO, is due to changes in processes and cultures.

 

[pauldun170]

Yes, the F135 was much more mature than the F136. But the price of the F135 jumped after the F136 was killed. You also run the risk of grounding the entire fleet when a systematic engine issue occurs.

Not as big of deal if you have a competing airframe, such as F-15 vs F-16, or F-22 vs F-15. When you are guaranteed to get all future sales, prices tend to go way up.

The real problem is development costs are out of control, and have been for a very long time, so you can't afford to develop multiple airframes and engines any more. Some of this because of more complexity, tougher requirements, more optimization, but a lot of it, IMHO, is due to changes in processes and cultures.

Competing airframes = $$$$$
Specialized airframes = $$$$$
Rehash of existing airframes - Wasteful and pointless.

Every new airplane is always going to be worse than "That other plane"
"Instead of A-10's they should have gone with A-7's!!"
"Instead of the F-16's, the world missed out on F-20"
"Instead of the F-22, they should have gone with the YF-23!!!"
"Every cancelled program should have never been cancelled because "reasons"
Now with the F-35, it's the X-32 or they should have built more A-10's or X,Y,Z
I won't even get into Hornet and Superhornet vs A6\A7 and F-14s

Which variant saw the increase ( *-100 or *-600) and what is the year by year unit cost with the jump? Early in the program, before they Dod brought out thors hammer in 2012 they had the whole crap with supplier costs but from what recall they had kept prices fairly stable over the years. You have the actual numbers?

I don't think that the P&W isn't purposely out their to fuck over the taxpayer and several airforces around the world. The F135 (sans afterburner) is powering the B2 replacement and the Pentagon remembers fuckery next time contracts are out
I'm also looking forward to what GE and P&W do this year with the adaptive engine demonstrators that have been flying since last year and if rumor are true the F22 replacement is already flying.
The B3 and NGAD or whatever is allegedly leveraging a lot of the work done on the F35 program and done in record time so in the grand scheme of things this all hopefully resulted in a lot of money well spent.
This stuff is going to be flying for the next 50+ years

Meanwhile, while everyone is picking their favorite aircraft, the military has to focus on "mission" and what the mission will be.

We live in era where politicians just love blowing up armed civilians in pickup trucks in other countries where don't have to worry about air defense systems or any significant threat to aircraft. That "mission" doesn't require jets. We could literally just rent Super Tucanos and drones.

I will come out and say that I'd rather we keep looking forward than looking back and I think the F-35 is good plane that's going to serve a lot of countries well. I think they will bring operating costs down over time, especially when it comes to the coatings which is big part of that cost.

I'm in the camp that we should be building things like 6th gen platform and F-35's and B3's. I don't even care about arguing on their value or purpose anymore because I'm confident that time will prove me right.
I came into this thread with the intent of discussing\debating the F-35 like the original thread back in OT from years ago.
Your points actually led me to catching up on all the fun little congressional reports and poking around. Good stuff. I do enjoy the discussion.
However
Nickqt's comment seems more important and worth talking about.

I think the more important question is what the fuck we are doing around the world where we are basically bombing and murdering around the world for vanity purposes and "Votes".

I don't think we need the size military that we have and I don't think we should be coming up with excuses to show the world that we have a lethal military. I do believe that we should maintain a modern capable military and that includes things like modern aircraft that can survive a modern battle field with a peer state.
Do I think we need bases all over the world?
No.
Do I think we need multiple carrier groups in every patch of ocean?
No.
Do I think we should be worlds leading arms dealer?
Gotta think about that one.

 

[Zorba]

Competing airframes = $$$$$
Specialized airframes = $$$$$
Rehash of existing airframes - Wasteful and pointless.

Every new airplane is always going to be worse than "That other plane"
"Instead of A-10's they should have gone with A-7's!!"
"Instead of the F-16's, the world missed out on F-20"
"Instead of the F-22, they should have gone with the YF-23!!!"
"Every cancelled program should have never been cancelled because "reasons"
Now with the F-35, it's the X-32 or they should have built more A-10's or X,Y,Z
I won't even get into Hornet and Superhornet vs A6\A7 and F-14s

Which variant saw the increase ( *-100 or *-600) and what is the year by year unit cost with the jump? Early in the program, before they Dod brought out thors hammer in 2012 they had the whole crap with supplier costs but from what recall they had kept prices fairly stable over the years. You have the actual numbers?

I don't think that the P&W isn't purposely out their to fuck over the taxpayer and several airforces around the world. The F135 (sans afterburner) is powering the B2 replacement and the Pentagon remembers fuckery next time contracts are out
I'm also looking forward to what GE and P&W do this year with the adaptive engine demonstrators that have been flying since last year and if rumor are true the F22 replacement is already flying.
The B3 and NGAD or whatever is allegedly leveraging a lot of the work done on the F35 program and done in record time so in the grand scheme of things this all hopefully resulted in a lot of money well spent.
This stuff is going to be flying for the next 50+ years

Meanwhile, while everyone is picking their favorite aircraft, the military has to focus on "mission" and what the mission will be.

We live in era where politicians just love blowing up armed civilians in pickup trucks in other countries where don't have to worry about air defense systems or any significant threat to aircraft. That "mission" doesn't require jets. We could literally just rent Super Tucanos and drones.

I will come out and say that I'd rather we keep looking forward than looking back and I think the F-35 is good plane that's going to serve a lot of countries well. I think they will bring operating costs down over time, especially when it comes to the coatings which is big part of that cost.

I'm in the camp that we should be building things like 6th gen platform and F-35's and B3's. I don't even care about arguing on their value or purpose anymore because I'm confident that time will prove me right.
I came into this thread with the intent of discussing\debating the F-35 like the original thread back in OT from years ago.
Your points actually led me to catching up on all the fun little congressional reports and poking around. Good stuff. I do enjoy the discussion.
However
Nickqt's comment seems more important and worth talking about.

I think the more important question is what the fuck we are doing around the world where we are basically bombing and murdering around the world for vanity purposes and "Votes".

I don't think we need the size military that we have and I don't think we should be coming up with excuses to show the world that we have a lethal military. I do believe that we should maintain a modern capable military and that includes things like modern aircraft that can survive a modern battle field with a peer state.
Do I think we need bases all over the world?
No.
Do I think we need multiple carrier groups in every patch of ocean?
No.
Do I think we should be worlds leading arms dealer?
Gotta think about that one.

I'll admit, I haven't really been following the F-35 much since I and my closer friends broke all ties with the program years ago. Here is some historical pricing on the F135, though: http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar.../f_35-engine-unit-costs-continue-to-grow.html I believe it was LRIP 3 that happened after the F136 was axed.

F135 is also having reliability issues. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/tech...-engine-is-a-bit-busted-right-now/ar-BB1dNyZ8 One advantage the F136 would've had over the F135 is that it was later to the game, so it had been up sized based on increasing weight on the F-35. The F135 had to increase burner temps to get the performance out, while the F136 increased its core diameter.

From wiki: "Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher C. Bogdan, the executive officer of the F-35 program, has called out P&W for falling short on manufacturing quality of the engines and slow deliveries. His deputy director Rear Admiral Randy Mahr said that P&W stopped their cost-cutting efforts after "they got the monopoly". In 2013 the price of the F135 increased by $4.3 billion."

BTW: I never said that we should have kept the A-10, or F-16 or any other platform. I'm saying giving the market to one company and one platform leads to a lot of risk and basically zero negotiating power. Originally the F-16, F-15, and F-18 lines were supposed to be dead by now, yet they are still turning out aircraft because of issues on the F-35 program. Also since the F-35 was born, heavy bombers has taken over a ton of the attack role. One B-1B can loiter all day, and carry many multiples the armament of an F-16. Of course, you need air superiority to do that.

 

[theeedude]

This is what success looks like if you are a defense contractor. Fvck up, then instead of getting penalized, get more money to fix the problems. Why wouldn't you fvck everything up all the time?
One man's waste is another man's treasure.

 

[pauldun170]

I'll admit, I haven't really been following the F-35 much since I and my closer friends broke all ties with the program years ago. Here is some historical pricing on the F135, though: http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar.../f_35-engine-unit-costs-continue-to-grow.html I believe it was LRIP 3 that happened after the F136 was axed.

F135 is also having reliability issues. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/tech...-engine-is-a-bit-busted-right-now/ar-BB1dNyZ8 One advantage the F136 would've had over the F135 is that it was later to the game, so it had been up sized based on increasing weight on the F-35. The F135 had to increase burner temps to get the performance out, while the F136 increased its core diameter.

From wiki: "Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher C. Bogdan, the executive officer of the F-35 program, has called out P&W for falling short on manufacturing quality of the engines and slow deliveries. His deputy director Rear Admiral Randy Mahr said that P&W stopped their cost-cutting efforts after "they got the monopoly". In 2013 the price of the F135 increased by $4.3 billion."

BTW: I never said that we should have kept the A-10, or F-16 or any other platform. I'm saying giving the market to one company and one platform leads to a lot of risk and basically zero negotiating power. Originally the F-16, F-15, and F-18 lines were supposed to be dead by now, yet they are still turning out aircraft because of issues on the F-35 program. Also since the F-35 was born, heavy bombers has taken over a ton of the attack role. One B-1B can loiter all day, and carry many multiples the armament of an F-16. Of course, you need air superiority to do that.

I know that the F18 production was ramped up due to the excessive wear and tear fucking around in middle east has caused. We had to build new E\F's because the Air Force's over reliance on Growlers resulted in a lot of planes simply worn out. That has nothing to do with the planned F35 rollout and that's straight from the horses mouth. It is in the congressional record.
F16 always has orders since that the standard entry point into "US would like to sell you the boom boom" and its the goto plane for those not allowed to get the F35

No one planned on 20 years of continuous operations and the inventory got hit hard. I'm still thrown back that the airforce spun up F15ex's again to replace the F15C's that were basically antiques. It's waste of money considering the air superiority mission the F15c are tasked with is basically "theoretical" at this time.
Building F-15E's to modern standards at 150M per is insane.

I agree that all eggs in the same basket sucks and I hope the winner of the 6th gen contract doesn't rhyme with "Cockpeed".
However I'm still bitter about what Cheney did to Grumman

Personally, I would like the US to chill out for a decade and just reset. Stop trying to celebrate war for the fuck of it and actually try and help solve problems

 

[pauldun170]

An engine shortage is the newest problem to hit the F-35 enterprise

By 2022, five to six percent of the F-35 fleet could be without engines, a defense official said.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Aikouka]

And of course, the requirements change constantly.

Change or scope creep is definitely a problem. I wonder how much of it has to do with a detachment from the money and changes in military leadership over time. Essentially, everything is “for the sake of the mission”, and to a defense contractor, “the customer is always right”. However, when leadership changes and the mindset changes with it, you get new ideas and areas for improvement. Essentially, unless your Congressional backing is strong enough, your program will die if the cost balloons too much. For example, Shelby was a large part of keeping SLS alive even though it has been a colossal mess.