This is what happens without labor unions:

[Zebo]

It will take awhile before that comes here. For one we have right to organize which makes employers pay more, union or not. Most places they just fire you if you ask for larger share of what your labor produced and get next person starving for a bowl of rice and kill the instigators for disrupting production.

Then we have a whole plethora of laws even free marketeers like even though it's not free market that will not go away anytime soon.

Republicans arnt as bad as you think. They just want to keep all the money they make with opportunities afforded to them. As opportunity disappears they will begin to question as well don't worry. they already do protest opportunity disappearing for many things, like military cuts or illegal immigration which changes the labor supply and demand dynamic.

 

[werepossum]

People like you are completely delusional and have no concept of how the world works.
Amazingly, the owner of my company is a huge republican supporter. He has hundreds of millions of dollars, and owns over 60 companies. No one is unionized and we all make well above industry standards for our professions, get excellent healthcare coverage, 401K with 100% matching up to 6% of our yearly salary, plus pension after 10 years.
No unions needed. No unions required.
Unions for the most part only protect the unskilled, easily replaced laborer. People that have high skill sets, and valuable knowledge don't need unions to get a good wage/benefits.

I take issue only with the last sentence. Trade unions do in fact protect people with high skill sets and valuable knowledge. They provide valuable training, useful things like health insurance, and support in job disputes, but usually they are kept honest by competition with cheaper non-union labor. If the union labor is not better and more productive, it will not survive except where some outside force protects it.

Only in cases like government, where there is no competition, do I think unions are truly bad for society. They may wreck a company or even an industry, but usually new or foreign competitors will spring up, and in those cases the new workers are usually smart enough not to make the same mistakes.

 

[FuzzyBee]

http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=188640&cid=23



Basically workers are being chained to factory machines and forced to do hard labor. It is modern day slavery of the worst kind. If republicans and libertarians have their way we will be seeing this in america soon. Remember this is what your tea party members want, and the only thing protecting us from this is the labor union.

Sounds like they were in a machinery union.

 

[werepossum]

Sounds like they were in a machinery union.

+1

Hey, if you can't laugh at people chained to machinery . . .

 

[Zebo]

Even god father of capitalism Adam Smith said labor must organize to buttress capitals organization in wealth of nations. Locke used the term commonwealth and also believed in man has a natural right to property not be perpetual debtors/renters. Ideas has been perverted in this country to a winner takes all and that's not capitalism.

Public unions are an abomination tho even FDR said so.

 

[RFE]

No, they are usually old dudes gone senile/paranoid, sociopath war profiteers using greed for a personal justification, college kids still learning about real life, or unemployed losers with no life at all looking for someone or people/group to blame their failings in life on instead of taking responsibility.

That pretty much sums up Libertarians as a whole on the net /talk radio/rw media and in here.

College kids?! LOL, where did that come from? Were you typing and forgot what the subject matter was? College kids as libertarians!! Indeed, just like the faculty.
Unemployed.....Really?? You mean those folks relying on the social safety net or food stamps? Staunch libertarians one and all!!
War Profiteers?! Without doubt, those types REALLY favor small government and limited military spending.

I went to their website to pull directly from the Libertarian Platform (http://www.lp.org/platform)

3.1 National Defense

We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression. The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.

 

[sao123]

That's nonsense. There's never been any union where I work, or even in the entire industry where I work, and yet I have health insurance and all sorts of benefits. Union or lack of union doesn't change my benefits: as long as the company has to compete against other companies for a scarce resource (productive labor), then the market will determine the value of the labor, and people will have benefits etc.

The only time the mechanism fails if if the employer does not have to compete against others for the labor (like in a one employer town).

Further, with regard to the gun argument, it's not just a slippery slope argument, we've already seen numerous times how the process (and eroding gun rights) work all across the globe.

Hate to break it to you but labor is not in demand... its in a glut, and will remain so until a large change in policy shifts us away from favoring business over workers.

That's unpossible, it's a lie!! Surely if you are not part of a union you are oppressed and chained to a machine, working 20 hour days just to earn the right to eat ramen noodles.


Yep, unions simply distort the cost of labor, making unskilled labor more expensive than it should be. That can only work in the long run if there is no competition (foreign or domestic). The only employer that doesn't face competition or cost constraints is the government.

the purpose of business is to provide employment for the workforce for a means to live... not the other way around.
unskilled labor is undervalued, not overpaid.

 

[Steeplerot]

Unemployed.....Really?? You mean those folks relying on the social safety net or food stamps? Staunch libertarians one and all!!

Yeah, that is an extreme example, I forgot most never make it out of moms basement hence the nativity of their economic beliefs in fairy tale free markets.

No mises/cato link? You are a fail libertarian dude, get those corporate think-tank links prepared next time.

 

[werepossum]

Hate to break it to you but labor is not in demand... its in a glut, and will remain so until a large change in policy shifts us away from favoring business over workers.

the purpose of business is to provide employment for the workforce for a means to live... not the other way around.
unskilled labor is undervalued, not overpaid.

WTF? NONONONONONONO!
The purpose of business is to make wealth by producing and/or offering a product or service. Jobs exist because someone with liquid wealth has a task he wants done, that he cannot (or wishes not to) do himself. Jobs do NOT exist because the workforce needs them to live. To believe otherwise leads us toward having everyone work for government so that everyone can have a good job. Once we lose sight of why business and jobs exist, we can only decline as a nation.

 

[TehMac]

Labor unions are why those laws exist in the first place. Remove the unions and slavery and kidnapping immediately become legal again.

LOL.

Where is your logic (if any) in that? Are you trying to equate a bunch of greedy mobsters with the law?

 

[pcgeek11]

http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=188640&cid=23



Basically workers are being chained to factory machines and forced to do hard labor. It is modern day slavery of the worst kind. If republicans and libertarians have their way we will be seeing this in america soon. Remember this is what your tea party members want, and the only thing protecting us from this is the labor union.

You are officially Retarded.

 

[matt0611]

College kids?! LOL, where did that come from? Were you typing and forgot what the subject matter was? College kids as libertarians!! Indeed, just like the faculty.
Unemployed.....Really?? You mean those folks relying on the social safety net or food stamps? Staunch libertarians one and all!!
War Profiteers?! Without doubt, those types REALLY favor small government and limited military spending.

I went to their website to pull directly from the Libertarian Platform (http://www.lp.org/platform)

3.1 National Defense

We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression. The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.

Exactly. Throughout both undergrad and graduate school. nearly every single person I met was a leftist political wise.

Unemployed? Are you kidding? All the unemployed people are wanting more handouts for the government or are surviving off it currently. Nearly always leftist, blaming someone else for their problems.

All libertarians i've ever met are also for downsizing the military as well.

I've found reality to be the opposite of Red suggested, nearly all libertarians i've ever met are people who take responsibility for themselves and their situation. And i've noticed that people who actually take responsibility for themselves to be a lot more successful than people who don't. Just my experience anyway.

 

[MotF Bane]

Exactly. Throughout both undergrad and graduate school. nearly every single person I met was a leftist political wise.

Unemployed? Are you kidding? All the unemployed people are wanting more handouts for the government or are surviving off it currently. Nearly always leftist, blaming someone else for their problems.

All libertarians i've ever met are also for downsizing the military as well.

I've found reality to be the opposite of Red suggested, nearly all libertarians i've ever met are people who take responsibility for themselves and their situation. And i've noticed that people who actually take responsibility for themselves to be a lot more successful than people who don't. Just my experience anyway.

Yeah, really. College kids are about as left as it gets.

 

[JS80]

Are Anarchist420 and DCal430 the same person?

 

[ShawnD1]

Are Anarchist420 and DCal430 the same person?

They're opposites. 420 wants libertarian style slavery where you can buy people and Market Forces control whether or not that's legal. 430 wants blood in the streets style unions to stop slavery.

 

[sao123]

WTF? NONONONONONONO!
The purpose of business is to make wealth by producing and/or offering a product or service. Jobs exist because someone with liquid wealth has a task he wants done, that he cannot (or wishes not to) do himself. Jobs do NOT exist because the workforce needs them to live. To believe otherwise leads us toward having everyone work for government so that everyone can have a good job. Once we lose sight of why business and jobs exist, we can only decline as a nation.

Epic fail.
Our economy is only successful when the cash flows... nto when one side (workers or employers) hoards it.

Employers pay workers so they can in turn become customers, which spend money, which causes businesses to prosper, thus continuing the cycle. it is the employerss duty to hire and pay local workers to maintain the local economy.

Downsizing and lowering wages for the sake of profiteering leads to a slowing of the eternal cycle... and leads to exactly the shitty economy we have now.

corporatist agenda = fail.

 

[DCal430]

The libertarians in this thread remind me of the black who fought on the side of the confederate during the civil war. They are fighting for their own enslavement. It is sad really.

 

[RFE]

Yeah, that is an extreme example, I forgot most never make it out of moms basement hence the nativity of their economic beliefs in fairy tale free markets.

No mises/cato link? You are a fail libertarian dude, get those corporate think-tank links prepared next time.

Priceless!! I must make it a point to read more of your posts, true comic gold. Nowhere was it stated that I'm a libertarian, yet you continue to paint with a broad and misguided brush. Reminds me of a blindfolded person facing the wrong direction trying to hit the pinata.

The link supplied was for the party that you began attacking, seemed pretty straightforward and simplistic. Rather than presenting any meaningful facts to back up your science fiction, you blindly invoke "corporate think tanks" in a lame attempt to deflect away from the shambles of your argument.

 

[matt0611]

Epic fail.
Our economy is only successful when the cash flows... nto when one side (workers or employers) hoards it.

Employers pay workers so they can in turn become customers, which spend money, which causes businesses to prosper, thus continuing the cycle. it is the employerss duty to hire and pay local workers to maintain the local economy.

Downsizing and lowering wages for the sake of profiteering leads to a slowing of the eternal cycle... and leads to exactly the shitty economy we have now.

corporatist agenda = fail.

The money only has value because of the production of the worker and business.
The economy is stronger the more it produces, not the more it pays its workers. Higher wages are a consequence of increased productivity.
You're putting the cart before the horse.

Employers don't pay workers so they can give them that money back. That doesn't even make any sense. They pay them for the service of providing their human capital to produce things for them.

 

[DCal430]

The money only has value because of the production of the worker and business.
The economy is stronger the more it produces, not the more it pays its workers. Higher wages are a consequence of increased productivity.
You're putting the cart before the horse.

Employers don't pay workers so they can give them that money back. That doesn't even make any sense. They pay them for the service of providing their human capital to produce things for them.

The people allow corporations to exist, and in return those corporations are suppose to provide fair jobs and wages. When they fail to do that then the people have a right to close down that corporation. Remember a corporation makes money because the people allow them to, and they should be grateful for it.

 

[Steeplerot]

Meh, in my experience libertarians are generally paranoid distrustful of humanity sociopath types who think everyone else is on the take like them. In this forum doubly so.

"responsible" Libertarian is as much a misnomer as "responsible" Free-Market as a Fiscal Conservative in real life. They don't exist. Conservatism is a scam. And no, we don't have to be grateful to our bosses by default, we make them money, not the other way around you serf.

 

[MotF Bane]

Meh, in my experience libertarians are generally paranoid distrustful of humanity sociopath types who think everyone else is on the take like them. In this forum doubly so.

"responsible" Libertarian is as much a misnomer as "responsible" Free-Market as a Fiscal Conservative in real life. They don't exist. Conservatism is a scam. And no, we don't have to be grateful to our bosses by default, we make them money, not the other way around you serf.

 

[DCal430]

Meh, in my experience libertarians are generally paranoid distrustful of humanity sociopath types who think everyone else is on the take like them. In this forum doubly so.

"responsible" Libertarian is as much a misnomer as "responsible" Free-Market as a Fiscal Conservative in real life. They don't exist. Conservatism is a scam. And no, we don't have to be grateful to our bosses by default, we make them money, not the other way around you serf.

If anything the bosses should be greatful to the workers for making him money and allowing him to be incharge.

 

[Steeplerot]

Show me real life fiscal conservative who actually followed through with the nonsense they talk about and helped society. (besides the top few percent) You can't. Fiscal Conservationism and trickle down economics are bunk.
A reverse class warfare scam really.

 

[Matt1970]

This just in!!! Businesses are out to make money.

This also just in. Business will pay top dollar for good highly skilled labor.